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Rape?

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
And after all this time, you've still never provided any evidence at all that anybody anywhere has ever raped somebody mainly because they were super horny. Not even anecdotal evidence.

Why should I consider to your opinion when a) it is contrary to every study I'm aware of on the subject and b) you don't back it up with any evidence?

Because you never know. It could happen. It has to. You can't say that it never happens. That's so closed minded. And silly. And narrow minded. And sexual urges are just SO powerful sometimes. So it HAS to happen. Why is everyone arguing that? You all are so narrow-minded if you say that it can't ever happen even ONCE in ALL of human history.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Because you never know. It could happen. It has to. You can't say that it never happens. That's so closed minded. And silly. And narrow minded. And sexual urges are just SO powerful sometimes. So it HAS to happen. Why is everyone arguing that? You all are so narrow-minded if you say that it can't ever happen even ONCE in ALL of human history.

Pretty much yeah.

Do you have any idea the size of the sample study needed to determine the social tendency of all rapists alive today not to say all history till now and all to come?

Saying it cant happen is a pretty extrordinary claim I dont see how can it be evidenced honestly.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Because you never know. It could happen. It has to. You can't say that it never happens. That's so closed minded. And silly. And narrow minded. And sexual urges are just SO powerful sometimes. So it HAS to happen. Why is everyone arguing that? You all are so narrow-minded if you say that it can't ever happen even ONCE in ALL of human history.

Yeah, we just don't know if anybody has ever taken a bite out of a live baby just because they were hungry and didn't like the look of anything in the fridge. It could happen, so it must happen!
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
What exactly is it that you think that editorial is saying?

The classic rejoinder to Brownmiller was by Don Symons in The Evolution of Human
Sexuality. Symons reviewed forensic evidence showing that victims, as a class, were most likely to be young physically attractive women (as opposed to older, more successful career women). On the other hand, convicted rapists were disproportionately young disadvantaged men whose low social status made them undesirable as dating partners, or husbands.


Stranger rape takes different forms, including a political version and a sadistic version but the majority of sexual assaults are more about sexual gratification than control over women per se.

(thats from the article)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The classic rejoinder to Brownmiller was by Don Symons in The Evolution of Human
Sexuality. Symons reviewed forensic evidence showing that victims, as a class, were most likely to be young physically attractive women (as opposed to older, more successful career women). On the other hand, convicted rapists were disproportionately young disadvantaged men whose low social status made them undesirable as dating partners, or husbands.


Stranger rape takes different forms, including a political version and a sadistic version but the majority of sexual assaults are more about sexual gratification than control over women per se.

(thats from the article)

And this, to you, is evidence that rape is sometimes caused mainly by horniness? Can you sketch out your reasoning please? I'm not seeing it.

Edit: it amuses me that "attractive" and "successful" are two separate categories of women in this article. Makes you wonder whether the writer has any brains.
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
Yeah, we just don't know if anybody has ever taken a bite out of a live baby just because they were hungry and didn't like the look of anything in the fridge. It could happen, so it must happen!

I am sure more than one tribe has done it. I am not sure how much cannibalistic tribes exist today.

Baby eating for other reasons does exist (though one might not want to click the following link)

In any case, I would wonder if cannibal tribes didnt eat the children and babies. I assume some did, if you are going to kill them anyways, and they are canibals, then why let meat go to waste?

About happening in today`s societies, there are many factors limiting it. For starters, there are way less people interested in human flesh (whether the person wanted to be eaten when dead or not) than people interested in sex. That alone may lower chances dramatically. Of the 7 billion of us, I wonder if moe than 1% wants human meat?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
And this, to you, is evidence that rape is sometimes caused mainly by horniness? Can you sketch out your reasoning please? I'm not seeing it.

Edit: it amuses me that "attractive" and "successful" are two separate categories of women in this article. Makes you wonder whether the writer has any brains.

Guy has PhD in psychology. So we have an expert talking about his field.

If that counts for nothing to you, I dont know what to tell you :shrug:
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Guy has PhD in psychology. So we have an expert talking about his field.

If that counts for nothing to you, I dont know what to tell you :shrug:

Er, no. Evidence. Not just some other guy saying the same stuff you think. Evidence is what you need. Facts. Not opinions. Studies. Not editorials. Examples. Not hypothetical scenarios.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And after all this time, you've still never provided any evidence at all that anybody anywhere has ever raped somebody mainly because they were super horny. Not even anecdotal evidence.

Why should I consider to your opinion when a) it is contrary to every study I'm aware of on the subject and b) you don't back it up with any evidence?

"The research and literature from over the past few decades has amounted to a wealth of information that can aid us in understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and how they interact with other important factors involved in sexual offending. Although the majority of studies have used various methods of measurement (e.g., questionnaires, interviews, phallometry), differ in terms of focus (e.g., frequency, content, function), and differ in terms of offender (e.g., rapists, child molesters), when examined collectively, they provide valuable insight into the multifaceted nature of deviant sexual fantasies...
Second, we discussed the relationship between sexual fantasy and sexual arousal/interest, and focussed on two recently proposed theories in order to unpack the possible role of cognition in this relationship. The first was the cognitive-affective model of sexual arousal (Janssen et al., 2000), in which sexual fantasy plays a number of possible roles in the appraisal of sexual stimuli. The second was the ‘extended mind theory’ (Ward & Casey, 2010) from which we hypothesized that both the internal and external elements of an offender's cognitive structure are required in order to produce and experience a more sexually arousing fantasy. This theory can be used to understand the relationship between deviant fantasies and pornography (and other external elements) that goes beyond disinhibition (see also Wilson & Jones, 2008)...
Finally, we discussed some of the research and theory regarding the contentious relationship between fantasy and behavior. Based on the existing literature, the use of deviant fantasies can both indirectly increase the risk of deviant behavior occurring (distal influence) and directly affect it (proximal influence). Furthermore, theory and research indicates that the motivation of the offender (e.g., avoidant vs. approach) dictates how sexual fantasy may affect behavior.."

Bartels, R. M., & Gannon, T. A. (2011). Understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and their correlates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(6), 551-561.

Ryan, K. M. (2004). Further evidence for a cognitive component of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 9(6), 579-604.

"Researchers have consistently found that men tend to rate their own and other men and women's behavior more sexually than women do (Abbey, 1982, Abbey, 1987, Shotland and Craig, 1988 and Vrij and Kirby, 2002). More recently, research has expanded on these findings by going beyond simple gender differences and examining specific attitudes and beliefs that may drive an overperception bias among men. For example, Fisher and Walters (2003) examined individual and situational characteristics that influence men and women's interpretations of individuals’ sexual interest. They found that gender was not the only determinant of sexualized perceptions. Although men were more likely to interpret sexual intentions than women, men with calloused sexual attitudes, more traditional beliefs about women's roles, and lower social desirability concerns were most likely to report sexual interpretations of behavior than women or other men."

Kolivas, E. D., & Gross, A. M. (2007). Assessing sexual aggression: Addressing the gap between rape victimization and perpetration prevalence rates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 12(3), 315-328.

"Rape became a public and academic focus following the publication of Brownmiller's (1975) book, Against our will: Men, women, and rape. Brownmiller argued that rape is “a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” (p. 15, emphasis in original). Since then, feminist theories of rape have dominated the rape research literature. A prominent version of feminist theory contends that rape is the result of social traditions in which men have dominated political, economic, and other sources of power (Ellis, 1989).

Feminist theorists inspired by Brownmiller often interpret rape as a method by which men secure and maintain this power and dominance over women. Moreover, feminist theorists have argued explicitly that rape is not sexual in nature, and they often seem more focused on making ideological, rather than scientific, statements about human psychology and behavior (Thornhill & Palmer, 2000). These interpretations also ignore the existence of rape behaviors in many nonhuman species. Recently, researchers have begun to examine human rape from an evolutionary psychological perspective informed by comparative and other research."

McKibbin, W. F., & Shackelford, T. K. (2011). Women's avoidance of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(5), 437-443.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
"The research and literature from over the past few decades has amounted to a wealth of information that can aid us in understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and how they interact with other important factors involved in sexual offending. Although the majority of studies have used various methods of measurement (e.g., questionnaires, interviews, phallometry), differ in terms of focus (e.g., frequency, content, function), and differ in terms of offender (e.g., rapists, child molesters), when examined collectively, they provide valuable insight into the multifaceted nature of deviant sexual fantasies...
Second, we discussed the relationship between sexual fantasy and sexual arousal/interest, and focussed on two recently proposed theories in order to unpack the possible role of cognition in this relationship. The first was the cognitive-affective model of sexual arousal (Janssen et al., 2000), in which sexual fantasy plays a number of possible roles in the appraisal of sexual stimuli. The second was the ‘extended mind theory’ (Ward & Casey, 2010) from which we hypothesized that both the internal and external elements of an offender's cognitive structure are required in order to produce and experience a more sexually arousing fantasy. This theory can be used to understand the relationship between deviant fantasies and pornography (and other external elements) that goes beyond disinhibition (see also Wilson & Jones, 2008)...
Finally, we discussed some of the research and theory regarding the contentious relationship between fantasy and behavior. Based on the existing literature, the use of deviant fantasies can both indirectly increase the risk of deviant behavior occurring (distal influence) and directly affect it (proximal influence). Furthermore, theory and research indicates that the motivation of the offender (e.g., avoidant vs. approach) dictates how sexual fantasy may affect behavior.."

Bartels, R. M., & Gannon, T. A. (2011). Understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and their correlates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(6), 551-561.

Ryan, K. M. (2004). Further evidence for a cognitive component of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 9(6), 579-604.

First, THANK YOU for finally offering substance to a different opinion. :D.....a perspective like this is refreshing.

Second, does a study like this address sexual fantasy of non-violent offenders as well? The reason I ask is because how sure can we be that sexual fantasy is linked to the behavior of people who rape if other people have sexual fantasies that may be similar to violent offenders?

"Researchers have consistently found that men tend to rate their own and other men and women's behavior more sexually than women do (Abbey, 1982, Abbey, 1987, Shotland and Craig, 1988 and Vrij and Kirby, 2002). More recently, research has expanded on these findings by going beyond simple gender differences and examining specific attitudes and beliefs that may drive an overperception bias among men. For example, Fisher and Walters (2003) examined individual and situational characteristics that influence men and women's interpretations of individuals’ sexual interest. They found that gender was not the only determinant of sexualized perceptions. Although men were more likely to interpret sexual intentions than women, men with calloused sexual attitudes, more traditional beliefs about women's roles, and lower social desirability concerns were most likely to report sexual interpretations of behavior than women or other men."

Kolivas, E. D., & Gross, A. M. (2007). Assessing sexual aggression: Addressing the gap between rape victimization and perpetration prevalence rates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 12(3), 315-328.

Do these studies also address the problem of women who rape, prison rape, and rape during war as well?

"Rape became a public and academic focus following the publication of Brownmiller's (1975) book, Against our will: Men, women, and rape. Brownmiller argued that rape is “a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” (p. 15, emphasis in original). Since then, feminist theories of rape have dominated the rape research literature. A prominent version of feminist theory contends that rape is the result of social traditions in which men have dominated political, economic, and other sources of power (Ellis, 1989).

Feminist theorists inspired by Brownmiller often interpret rape as a method by which men secure and maintain this power and dominance over women. Moreover, feminist theorists have argued explicitly that rape is not sexual in nature, and they often seem more focused on making ideological, rather than scientific, statements about human psychology and behavior (Thornhill & Palmer, 2000). These interpretations also ignore the existence of rape behaviors in many nonhuman species. Recently, researchers have begun to examine human rape from an evolutionary psychological perspective informed by comparative and other research."

McKibbin, W. F., & Shackelford, T. K. (2011). Women's avoidance of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(5), 437-443.

Brownmillers book isn't as widely accepted as McKibbin and Shackelford believe. It's certainly controversial because of it's language that delved in absolutes. Surely, ALL men do not benefit from rape culture. And reviews as above also ignore rape that is not heteronormative and outside of the prison showers.

Also, while I appreciate the insistence that rape must be studied across cultures and species, there is a strange insistence that when it comes to male on female rape around the age of a sexual peak with men, that somehow rape becomes magically sexualized and has less to do with violence than it does among other rapes. Or at the very least, that sexual fantasy and libido have suddenly become an added component to rape.

Finally, the language used by Brownmiller does not represent all of feminism, in the same way that Dworkin does not represent the views of sex-positive feminists.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
First, THANK YOU for finally offering substance to a different opinion. :D.....a perspective like this is refreshing.

Second, does a study like this address sexual fantasy of non-violent offenders as well? The reason I ask is because how sure can we be that sexual fantasy is linked to the behavior of people who rape if other people have sexual fantasies that may be similar to violent offenders?



Do these studies also address the problem of women who rape, prison rape, and rape during war as well?



Brownmillers book isn't as widely accepted as McKibbin and Shackelford believe. It's certainly controversial because of it's language that delved in absolutes. Surely, ALL men do not benefit from rape culture. And reviews as above also ignore rape that is not heteronormative and outside of the prison showers.

Also, while I appreciate the insistence that rape must be studied across cultures and species, there is a strange insistence that when it comes to male on female rape around the age of a sexual peak with men, that somehow rape becomes magically sexualized and has less to do with violence than it does among other rapes. Or at the very least, that sexual fantasy and libido have suddenly become an added component to rape.

Finally, the language used by Brownmiller does not represent all of feminism, in the same way that Dworkin does not represent the views of sex-positive feminists.

I also don't see how the prevalence of rape behavior in other species can be used as evidence that it is not a primarily violent impulse, and related to social status and power more than sexuality. Certainly among primates, mating behavior and social status / power are often intermingled, with the alpha male of some species securing most or all mating opportunities through violence against both males and females in the group.

Also, primates are casually violent in all kinds of ways, not just sexual violence. Chimp females sometimes kill and eat the babies of other females. There's nothing sexual about that.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I don't doubt that teenage rapists attempt to exert power over others in many ways other than rape.

Of course things like alcohol, lack of comprehensive sex education dealing with the subject of consent, entitlement, huge misconceptions about female sexuality due to church, porn, films, video games, etc. all contribute to date rape, but horniness alone just causes wanking, not raping.

Indeed, nor have I ever said that libido was the only factor, only that discounting it as A factor is incorrect. Sometimes it is a primary factor. Other times it can be a minor factor.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
"The research and literature from over the past few decades has amounted to a wealth of information that can aid us in understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and how they interact with other important factors involved in sexual offending. Although the majority of studies have used various methods of measurement (e.g., questionnaires, interviews, phallometry), differ in terms of focus (e.g., frequency, content, function), and differ in terms of offender (e.g., rapists, child molesters), when examined collectively, they provide valuable insight into the multifaceted nature of deviant sexual fantasies...
Second, we discussed the relationship between sexual fantasy and sexual arousal/interest, and focussed on two recently proposed theories in order to unpack the possible role of cognition in this relationship. The first was the cognitive-affective model of sexual arousal (Janssen et al., 2000), in which sexual fantasy plays a number of possible roles in the appraisal of sexual stimuli. The second was the ‘extended mind theory’ (Ward & Casey, 2010) from which we hypothesized that both the internal and external elements of an offender's cognitive structure are required in order to produce and experience a more sexually arousing fantasy. This theory can be used to understand the relationship between deviant fantasies and pornography (and other external elements) that goes beyond disinhibition (see also Wilson & Jones, 2008)...
Finally, we discussed some of the research and theory regarding the contentious relationship between fantasy and behavior. Based on the existing literature, the use of deviant fantasies can both indirectly increase the risk of deviant behavior occurring (distal influence) and directly affect it (proximal influence). Furthermore, theory and research indicates that the motivation of the offender (e.g., avoidant vs. approach) dictates how sexual fantasy may affect behavior.."

Bartels, R. M., & Gannon, T. A. (2011). Understanding the sexual fantasies of sex offenders and their correlates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(6), 551-561.

Ryan, K. M. (2004). Further evidence for a cognitive component of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 9(6), 579-604.

"Researchers have consistently found that men tend to rate their own and other men and women's behavior more sexually than women do (Abbey, 1982, Abbey, 1987, Shotland and Craig, 1988 and Vrij and Kirby, 2002). More recently, research has expanded on these findings by going beyond simple gender differences and examining specific attitudes and beliefs that may drive an overperception bias among men. For example, Fisher and Walters (2003) examined individual and situational characteristics that influence men and women's interpretations of individuals’ sexual interest. They found that gender was not the only determinant of sexualized perceptions. Although men were more likely to interpret sexual intentions than women, men with calloused sexual attitudes, more traditional beliefs about women's roles, and lower social desirability concerns were most likely to report sexual interpretations of behavior than women or other men."

Kolivas, E. D., & Gross, A. M. (2007). Assessing sexual aggression: Addressing the gap between rape victimization and perpetration prevalence rates. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 12(3), 315-328.

"Rape became a public and academic focus following the publication of Brownmiller's (1975) book, Against our will: Men, women, and rape. Brownmiller argued that rape is “a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” (p. 15, emphasis in original). Since then, feminist theories of rape have dominated the rape research literature. A prominent version of feminist theory contends that rape is the result of social traditions in which men have dominated political, economic, and other sources of power (Ellis, 1989).

Feminist theorists inspired by Brownmiller often interpret rape as a method by which men secure and maintain this power and dominance over women. Moreover, feminist theorists have argued explicitly that rape is not sexual in nature, and they often seem more focused on making ideological, rather than scientific, statements about human psychology and behavior (Thornhill & Palmer, 2000). These interpretations also ignore the existence of rape behaviors in many nonhuman species. Recently, researchers have begun to examine human rape from an evolutionary psychological perspective informed by comparative and other research."

McKibbin, W. F., & Shackelford, T. K. (2011). Women's avoidance of rape. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16(5), 437-443.

It seems to me that if you're studying convicted rapists, it shouldn't be surprising that they have "deviant sexual fantasies". To me that indicates they're not actually interested in consensual sex, so the hypothesis that simply being really horny can turn a normal person into a rapist is not supported by the finding that rapists have sexual fantasies about raping.

Also, misperception of sexual behavior doesn't necessarily turn people into rapists. I've had to really be firm to get my point across at times to men who have trouble believing I'm not interested, but they generally lose interest as soon as they understand I'm not available. Besides, a rapist wants someone who is NOT interested in sex, so I don't see what misperceptions of sexual behavior have to do with anything. Forcing someone to do something they really don't want to do is the whole point.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Indeed, nor have I ever said that libido was the only factor, only that discounting it as A factor is incorrect. Sometimes it is a primary factor. Other times it can be a minor factor.

Seventy percent of rapists plan their crimes in advance. In general, they select victims based on perceptions of vulnerability rather than sexual attractiveness. I think it's harmful to promote the myth that people just can't help themselves - that they just get so horny sometimes they suddenly start raping everybody. It compromises the safety of people who might be victimized by misleading them as to the real risk factors. It makes it sound like getting a normal person you know and trust turned on is inherently dangerous, and it really isn't.

I know that a lot of sex out there is awkward and confusing and the presence or absence of consent is unclear. Booze doesn't help. I'm not talking about miscommunication and regrets in the clear light of day though. I'm talking about forcing someone to have sex when it is completely clear they don't want to.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Seventy percent of rapists plan their crimes in advance. In general, they select victims based on perceptions of vulnerability rather than sexual attractiveness. I think it's harmful to promote the myth that people just can't help themselves - that they just get so horny sometimes they suddenly start raping everybody. It compromises the safety of people who might be victimized by misleading them as to the real risk factors. It makes it sound like getting a normal person you know and trust turned on is inherently dangerous, and it really isn't.

I know that a lot of sex out there is awkward and confusing and the presence or absence of consent is unclear. Booze doesn't help. I'm not talking about miscommunication and regrets in the clear light of day though. I'm talking about forcing someone to have sex when it is completely clear they don't want to.

Yeah, I don't really see where I'm disagreeing with any of that. My only point is that removing the sexual drive as a factor in sexual assault and rape is overly simplistic and seems a bit naive. Then again, this could easily be a situation that could be chalked up to women not really understanding men's sexuality, as often seems to be the case on both ends.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yeah, I don't really see where I'm disagreeing with any of that. My only point is that removing the sexual drive as a factor in sexual assault and rape is overly simplistic and seems a bit naive. Then again, this could easily be a situation that could be chalked up to women not really understanding men's sexuality, as often seems to be the case on both ends.

I don't think anyone is removing it completely. It's just not enough on its own to turn any normal person into a rapist - except in awkward cases of misperception or miscommunication. You need a whole slew of other character defects, malicious impulses, anger and so forth before you become the sort of person who gets sexually aroused by forcing yourself on someone who clearly is not interested.
 
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