Reason to Believe

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It may always be true that 1+1=2 but it isn't always true that red is the best colour if you follow?

For part one? 1+1 may, in fact, sometimes equal 3, for very large values of 1. In measurement theory, there really is no 100% accurate way to measure a given attribute of something, such that we must deal with rounding errors and such things.

Alternatively, if you choose a numerical system based on anything lower than base 3? 1+1=10.

And finally, humans likely value the color red due to an inherited bias, from the simple fact that our blood is red in the presence of oxygen. As is the blood of our food animals.

But the same can be said for green, as the majority of our food plants are green at least in part.

But actual surveys of humans across cultures, the color blue always rises to the top of "favorite color" category; likely because on a clear day, the sky is mostly blue. This finding likely came as a surprise to Sir Lancelot ....

And I apologize for this thread interruption. Please ignore, and carry on.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Just don't come running later in a panic over your own choices.

Now why would a deity who is classified as "Good", deliberately create a situation wherein it's created creatures would need to feel panic at some point?

That could not possibly be good.

That could, however, be labeled as "capricious" or even "evil".

But definitively not "good".

And it does not even step onto the threshold of the concept of "fair". In fact, it's not even on the street that leads to "fair"; rather the opposite.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If you can’t do something, you’re literally incapable of doing so, how can you call it a choice? A choice is something you could do by definition. I can’t believe 2+2=5, that isn’t a choice. I can’t run at 100mph, that isn’t a choice. I can’t change your mind on this, that isn’t a choice.

But. In Measurement Theory, 2+2 can equal 5, for very large values of 2.

What? Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't doubt that I could have framed the question differently, but it was just a first topic to get eased in.

Fair enough! Welcome to the forums!

 

[Mock Turtle]

Fair enough! Welcome to the forums!

Ta!

 

[Erebus]

And I apologize for this thread interruption. Please ignore, and carry on.

No apology necessary, it was an interesting read!

 

[ChristineM]

(One of my favourite Tim Hardin songs, lol)

I am sure this has been asked many times, but any willing to contribute would be appreciated. Given all the various religious beliefs, what exactly caused you to accept one particular belief over another given that there are essentially five choices, and any reasons for doing so:

1. Leave it all in the air and make no choice.
2. Believe that all religions are essentially correct in their own way - with of course reservations.
3. Believe that some religions are essentially correct but others are not - again with reservations.
4. Believe that one religion is true and all the rest necessarily are false - with reservations.
5. Not believing any religion to be true - even though much of what they espouse will be true, or at least valuable.

For me it is the last. My reason? Lack of evidence (or not sufficient unbiased evidence to be exact), hence the default position - that none are true. The last is the default position, rather than the first I believe, because one really does need to prove an assertion if one wants others to believe it. After all, religions make claims, but whether one accepts these claims or not is if one believes the evidence or not. I can understand some having the first belief but not really for those having the middle three, particularly given the number of different beliefs.

Your reasons then?

5 is closest to my view though not quite. Perhaps there should be a #6, not believing any religion is true. Although many religious people gain a contentment with there religion they [religions] can be harmful.

 

[InChrist]

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't more than one Jesus Christ. I'm glad you've found Him, but so have I. We just found Him in different ways.

I agree that in reality, there is only one Savior, Jesus. Nevertheless, people and various religions do create different and inaccurate versions of "Jesus". Jesus Himself warned of false christs and Paul spoke about this with concern, I suppose due to the importance of one's faith being placed in the actual one true Person of Jesus Christ, rather than a false christ.
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

 

[InChrist]

Can you have that without thinking others are in a cult based on your experiences and not their individual relationship with Christ?

I can certainly have love for others whether I agree with their religion or spiritual path or not. But if they have a false christ or their religion/ church requires membership in its organization as necessary for eternal life or as an additional mediator between humanity and God then I cannot believe they have the truth according to God's revealed word in the scriptures..

 

[David T]

(One of my favourite Tim Hardin songs, lol)

I am sure this has been asked many times, but any willing to contribute would be appreciated. Given all the various religious beliefs, what exactly caused you to accept one particular belief over another given that there are essentially five choices, and any reasons for doing so:

1. Leave it all in the air and make no choice.
2. Believe that all religions are essentially correct in their own way - with of course reservations.
3. Believe that some religions are essentially correct but others are not - again with reservations.
4. Believe that one religion is true and all the rest necessarily are false - with reservations.
5. Not believing any religion to be true - even though much of what they espouse will be true, or at least valuable.

For me it is the last. My reason? Lack of evidence (or not sufficient unbiased evidence to be exact), hence the default position - that none are true. The last is the default position, rather than the first I believe, because one really does need to prove an assertion if one wants others to believe it. After all, religions make claims, but whether one accepts these claims or not is if one believes the evidence or not. I can understand some having the first belief but not really for those having the middle three, particularly given the number of different beliefs.

Your reasons then?

Belief a wierd topic.

 

[InChrist]

But presumably you will grant that a Muslim might have come to the same conclusion about their religious belief, or a Hindu, or a Mormon, etc., and isn't this a bit like shopping around for a belief that suits oneself rather than any more rational decision-making?

Yes, I'd say that basically if one is shopping around for religious/spiritual beliefs then anyone could reach a conclusion based on what suits them. I think that is what many people do. But I never went shopping for what I ended up with...being confronted by the powerful, perfect, loving Creator of heaven and earth, seeing the darkness of my own sin, and realizing my desperate need of Jesus to save me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can certainly have love for others whether I agree with their religion or spiritual path or not. But if they have a false christ or their religion/ church requires membership in its organization as necessary for eternal life or as an additional mediator between humanity and God then I cannot believe they have the truth according to God's revealed word in the scriptures..

How is the denomination make individual follow a false christ outside your experiences?

Can you really judge their relationship with christ by their denomination?

 

[Katzpur]

I agree that in reality, there is only one Savior, Jesus. Nevertheless, people and various religions do create different and inaccurate versions of "Jesus". Jesus Himself warned of false christs and Paul spoke about this with concern, I suppose due to the importance of one's faith being placed in the actual one true Person of Jesus Christ, rather than a false christ.

Well, my faith is in the Genuine, Bonafide, Authentic Jesus Christ -- the One who was the Creator of this world, the One who was born to a virgin in Bethlehem, the One who died for me on the cross, the One who was resurrected three days later and the One who is my Advocate with the Father today. If yours is too, that's great. That means we have one thing in common.

 

[Grandliseur]

Now why would a deity who is classified as "Good", deliberately create a situation wherein it's created creatures would need to feel panic at some point?

That could not possibly be good.

That could, however, be labeled as "capricious" or even "evil".

But definitively not "good".

And it does not even step onto the threshold of the concept of "fair". In fact, it's not even on the street that leads to "fair"; rather the opposite.

Interesting question.

You do realize how complex our reality is, even human societies and governments!

To answer, I want to just quickly set the stage apart from common religious claims and thinking. When dead, the dead being returns to not existing any longer; there is nothing left in a sense. So, neither hell fire, nor life in heaven (while dead) - happens. If God wants to punish us, it shall happen during our lifetimes.​

What we are shown is that those who obey his righteous rules and laws are blessed with the result of their ways, to some extend. The ones who disobey likewise get to reap as they sow. God may listen to the prayers of the 'righteous' but not to the ones who disobey.

Certain things are foretold. We have been foretold that the nations at the end shall have a final time of wrath, war, this we can already see is being prepared for by the nations. It should be obvious even to non believers that WWIII is coming, or something like it. Look at the doomsday clock, ever closer to 12 o'clock. In scripture, this war is being likened to the 'fires of wickedness'. It is said that 90% or thereabouts of the global human population shall die off.

Thus, it is our own 'fire of wickedness,' wars, that shall cause total panic, our own greed, and disagreement with other nations that shall cause a situation during which panic. Since we reap what we sow, this shall be permitted. The righteous shall be resurrected (recreated) later if they die during these tumultuous times. The earth shall be made to come under one single government which shall return the earth to paradise conditions. During this time, the r. shall be resurrected from as far back as Abel.

This sounds like fiction to the unbeliever. But, that is also the answer to your question. If you have other questions, I'll try to answer these.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Interesting question.

You do realize how complex our reality is, even human societies and governments!

To answer, I want to just quickly set the stage apart from common religious claims and thinking. When dead, the dead being returns to not existing any longer; there is nothing left in a sense. So, neither hell fire, nor life in heaven (while dead) - happens. If God wants to punish us, it shall happen during our lifetimes.​

What we are shown is that those who obey his righteous rules and laws are blessed with the result of their ways, to some extend. The ones who disobey likewise get to reap as they sow. God may listen to the prayers of the 'righteous' but not to the ones who disobey.

Certain things are foretold. We have been foretold that the nations at the end shall have a final time of wrath, war, this we can already see is being prepared for by the nations. It should be obvious even to non believers that WWIII is coming, or something like it. Look at the doomsday clock, ever closer to 12 o'clock. In scripture, this war is being likened to the 'fires of wickedness'. It is said that 90% or thereabouts of the global human population shall die off.

Thus, it is our own 'fire of wickedness,' wars, that shall cause total panic, our own greed, and disagreement with other nations that shall cause a situation during which panic. Since we reap what we sow, this shall be permitted. The righteous shall be resurrected (recreated) later if they die during these tumultuous times. The earth shall be made to come under one single government which shall return the earth to paradise conditions. During this time, the r. shall be resurrected from as far back as Abel.

This sounds like fiction to the unbeliever. But, that is also the answer to your question. If you have other questions, I'll try to answer these.

You used a lotta words here, but basically, you said the same thing: a capricious god, who absolutely refuses to prove itself is real by any rational regimen, and deliberately and with malice, permits people to come to harm, simply because they don't believe in this unproven deity?

The principle difference between the being you describe above? And me?

If I saw someone about to come to harm, I would do what I was able, to prevent the harm--and I would not ask if they deserved it first.

But, my take on your description above? Your god absolutely would allow the evil to unfold... as some kind of "punishment".

What's worse? The poor schlob has no clue why ...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

This sounds like fiction to the unbeliever. But, that is also the answer to your question. If you have other questions, I'll try to answer these.

No... it sounds like an evil and malicious being, to me. Fictional or no? It's certainly not good.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes, I'd say that basically if one is shopping around for religious/spiritual beliefs then anyone could reach a conclusion based on what suits them. I think that is what many people do. But I never went shopping for what I ended up with...being confronted by the powerful, perfect, loving Creator of heaven and earth, seeing the darkness of my own sin, and realizing my desperate need of Jesus to save me.

I can understand that - as remarked by many - it is down to what makes the most sense to each of us.

 

[InChrist]

Well, my faith is in the Genuine, Bonafide, Authentic Jesus Christ -- the One who was the Creator of this world, the One who was born to a virgin in Bethlehem, the One who died for me on the cross, the One who was resurrected three days later and the One who is my Advocate with the Father today. If yours is too, that's great. That means we have one thing in common.

Is the Jesus you have your faith in the unique, eternal only Son with no beginning, who has always existed one in substance and nature with the one and only eternal God the Father and the Holy Spirit? Or in the first procreated spirit of Elohim, similar to angels and humans who came into existence at some point, not having the fullness of God at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness and then he was called the Son of God, as stated in The Doctrine and Covenants 93:12-14?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

(One of my favourite Tim Hardin songs, lol)

I am sure this has been asked many times, but any willing to contribute would be appreciated. Given all the various religious beliefs, what exactly caused you to accept one particular belief over another given that there are essentially five choices, and any reasons for doing so:

1. Leave it all in the air and make no choice.
2. Believe that all religions are essentially correct in their own way - with of course reservations.
3. Believe that some religions are essentially correct but others are not - again with reservations.
4. Believe that one religion is true and all the rest necessarily are false - with reservations.
5. Not believing any religion to be true - even though much of what they espouse will be true, or at least valuable.

For me it is the last. My reason? Lack of evidence (or not sufficient unbiased evidence to be exact), hence the default position - that none are true. The last is the default position, rather than the first I believe, because one really does need to prove an assertion if one wants others to believe it. After all, religions make claims, but whether one accepts these claims or not is if one believes the evidence or not. I can understand some having the first belief but not really for those having the middle three, particularly given the number of different beliefs.

Your reasons then?

All religions are man made and therefore none can be called “correct”. Man is imperfect and cannot create anything perfect.
That said, any religion is OK I suppose as long as it doesn’t actually lead you away from God.

 

[Katzpur]

Is the Jesus you have your faith in the unique, eternal only Son with no beginning, who has always existed one in substance and nature with the one and only eternal God the Father and the Holy Spirit? Or in the first procreated spirit of Elohim, similar to angels and humans who came into existence at some point, not having the fullness of God at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness and then he was called the Son of God, as stated in The Doctrine and Covenants 93:12-14?

You know, I was going to respond to this, but then I thought, "Why waste my time with somebody who so loudly professes her Christianity but can't manage to talk to her LDS brothers and sisters without saying something hateful? You obviously think I believe in some fake, wannabe, pretender, but I don't. We could talk back and forth forever, but you will never change how you feel and you will always feel compelled to try to denigrate my testimony. The way you look down on Mormons is hurtful and mean. I hope you get some benefit out of it.