Reasons for believing in the Bible as the literal word of God.

[TLK Valentine]

Ok might I ask what you think that wrong message might be?

Ask the Republican party -- They're the ones against "handouts."

I remember learning about Machiavelli when I was in school. I was slightly fascinated. I also wonder about kings and queens and other things like that.

Not sure I see the connection here.

For instance here where we live there are many low paid workers who work very hard for rich people. And/or corporations.

That's because most of the western hemisphere lives in a post-industrial, service-based economy.

If you're a high-class corporate wheeler and dealer, you spend your days on the phone negotiating million-dollar deals. You don't know how to change a tire or fix a toilet, but the good news is, you don't have to -- you make enough money to hire people to do that for you when the need arises.

That's how your world works: The more deals you close, the more money you make, the more peasants you can hire to change your tires and fix your toilets.

Keep in mind, that's how the world works... until one day it doesn't:

When I worked for a educational corporation I always wondered about that. I know it sounds strange, or doesn't it, but highly paid workers were not those cleaning bathrooms. But it was a necessary job. Both were, I might add.

One thing COVID did for the country (and arguably the world) was show us which jobs were really necessary. In a lockdown, you can make your million-dollar deals just as easily from home as you can from your office... you're safe, but when your tire needs changing or your toilet needs fixing, it was the "peasants" putting their health on the line for you.

"Essential workers," we called them -- and now that the pandemic is behind us, they want to keep being treated as "essential..." and being paid as "essential" workers should be is also something they'd like, thankyouverymuch.

The nerve of some people, eh? The unmitigated gall...

At the time he didn't know. Things happened since he went back to heaven, wouldn't you agree?

He didn't know, but he told his disciples that their generation would not pass away until it all happened. (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32)

Needless to say, their generation passed away and things kept on keeping on... clearly some reinterpretation was in order.

Interestingly enough, John's Gospel omitted that prophecy -- ever wonder why?
I have a theory: We already know that John was written last, possibly as late as AD 90-110... by which time, Jesus' generation had already passed away. No point in including a prophecy which clearly had already gone bust, is there?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I feel that way about "gravity." God can set aside the law of physics and nothing will be hurt by it.

God can do it, but it wouldn't be a good idea to expect Him to do it every time you find yourself in a jam...

So... if you were to accidentally fall out a 25th-floor window, it's a safe bet that's exactly what you're going to end up as... "jam."

Gravity is pretty predictable -- 32 feet/second/second on Earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

Ask the Republican party -- They're the ones against "handouts."





Not sure I see the connection here.




That's because most of the western hemisphere lives in a post-industrial, service-based economy.

If you're a high-class corporate wheeler and dealer, you spend your days on the phone negotiating million-dollar deals. You don't know how to change a tire or fix a toilet, but the good news is, you don't have to -- you make enough money to hire people to do that for you when the need arises.

That's how your world works: The more deals you close, the more money you make, the more peasants you can hire to change your tires and fix your toilets.

Keep in mind, that's how the world works... until one day it doesn't:



One thing COVID did for the country (and arguably the world) was show us which jobs were really necessary. In a lockdown, you can make your million-dollar deals just as easily from home as you can from your office... you're safe, but when your tire needs changing or your toilet needs fixing, it was the "peasants" putting their health on the line for you.

"Essential workers," we called them -- and now that the pandemic is behind us, they want to keep being treated as "essential..." and being paid as "essential" workers should be is also something they'd like, thankyouverymuch.

The nerve of some people, eh? The unmitigated gall...


He didn't know, but he told his disciples that their generation would not pass away until it all happened. (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32)

Needless to say, their generation passed away and things kept on keeping on... clearly some reinterpretation was in order.

Interestingly enough, John's Gospel omitted that prophecy -- ever wonder why?
I have a theory: We already know that John was written last, possibly as late as AD 90-110... by which time, Jesus' generation had already passed away. No point in including a prophecy which clearly had already gone bust, is there?

OK, I admit it! I'll say I'm slow. because I really do not understand what you're saying here.

 

[YoursTrue]

God can do it, but it wouldn't be a good idea to expect Him to do it every time you find yourself in a jam...

So... if you were to accidentally fall out a 25th-floor window, it's a safe bet that's exactly what you're going to end up as... "jam."

Gravity is pretty predictable -- 32 feet/second/second on Earth.

I wasn't speaking about me floating from a 25th floor window. And I certainly don't expect Him to rescue me from every tribulation. I am thankful for what I know.

 

[TLK Valentine]

May be so, but I haven't found them to say this, or don't remember, which can happen.

Well, miracles are a touchy subject for anyone who gives the Bible close scrutiny. Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

So if there is a miracle-performing deity up there somewhere... He's got a lot of inaction to answer for.

 

[TLK Valentine]

OK, I admit it! I'll say I'm slow. because I really do not understand what you're saying here.

Fair enough - I dropped a lot on you in one post.

The bottom line is that COVID really upended a lot of people's ideas about what kind of work was "necessary" and what wasn't.

Now that the pandemic is behind us, a lot of people are pushing for things to go "back to normal" -- in other words, back to the way things were before COVID.

The problem is, that's just not going to happen. Once the world changes, there ain't no going back.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I wasn't speaking about me floating from a 25th floor window. And I certainly don't expect Him to rescue me from every tribulation. I am thankful for what I know.

Well, gravity's not really a good choice to compare to "miracles" - we understand why it happens, and we know so much about how it happens that we can measure it mathematically.

Miracles? Not so much.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, miracles are a touchy subject for anyone who gives the Bible close scrutiny. Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

So if there is a miracle-performing deity up there somewhere... He's got a lot of inaction to answer for.

The Israelites were basically descendants of Abraham. Abraham was given promises. I really only speak briefly, but there's more to it, however, the disciple Stephen spoke to the Jewish high priest in the 1st century CE.
Acts 7:1-7 explains more about this: "Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?” 2To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran. 3‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’ 4“So he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Harran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. 5He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. 6God spoke to him in this way: ‘For four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated. 7But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.’
It's really a fascinating and fabulous account. Written about in the Hebrew scriptures also before that.
Thank you for your expression.

 

[YoursTrue]

Fair enough - I dropped a lot on you in one post.

The bottom line is that COVID really upended a lot of people's ideas about what kind of work was "necessary" and what wasn't.

Now that the pandemic is behind us, a lot of people are pushing for things to go "back to normal" -- in other words, back to the way things were before COVID.

The problem is, that's just not going to happen. Once the world changes, there ain't no going back.

I must admit that I was having a pretty good time prior to the situation we are facing today. Life seemed to be a little easier. I agree, it's not going back to what was considered normal.
We have finite minds and I see photographs of misery in many cases. War. Famine. Disease. Abuse.
I have my problems. Yet as a Christian I pray for God's kingdom to come -- and His will to be done on the earth as it is in heaven.
I hope that makes sense.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, gravity's not really a good choice to compare to "miracles" - we understand why it happens, and we know so much about how it happens that we can measure it mathematically.

Miracles? Not so much.

Ah, I am not speaking of measuring things OR light-bending time possibilities. I am speaking of the miracles as recorded in the Bible. God can overcome judicially His own laws of nature without hurting anything.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ah, I am not speaking of measuring things OR light-bending time possibilities. I am speaking of the miracles as recorded in the Bible. God can overcome judicially His own laws of nature without hurting anything.

Absolutely - so going back to this:

I don't know. I tend to get detailed and people don't like to reveal themselves in my opinion. But here's the thing: in order for a person to believe in the process of evolution, they must overcome that Jesus came from heaven to be born as a babe without a human causing Mary to become pregnant.

Even a Christian who understands evolution shouldn't have any problem accepting the virgin birth as God judicially overcoming His own laws of nature without hurting anything.

 

[YoursTrue]

Absolutely - so going back to this:



Even a Christian who understands evolution shouldn't have any problem accepting the virgin birth as God judicially overcoming His own laws of nature without hurting anything.

I see. Again -- the problem in this context is really how did life come about? By a chance meeting of chemicals? How did it develop, after that? Did God do what the Bible says He did in Genesis?
Did fish really evolve to eventually become humans? Did plants evolve to eventually become humans?
Please note, the mechanics of genetics is not evolution as I see it, and this is where the details get interesting and arguments might ensue.

 

[metis]

Bible canon was established early on, so all the ' church ' had to do was testify as to what was already accepted in the first century.

No, it was not, evidenced by the fact that it took over 1000 bishops roughly 1/2 a century to determine the canon as there was much disagreement with some of the books.

The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the harmonious '66' books of Bible canon.

Actually, they are quite harmonious, which is why the Church didn't make the decision to discard them from consideration but put it off instead. The decision to not include them until possibly later was made because of their relatively late writing as compared to the Tanakh.

The harmonious '66' have corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers.

There are some differences between them, such as how many angels were at Jesus' tomb and what did he/they say? There's plenty of others as well.

 

[metis]

One of the things we keep running across here is the false belief that the ToE and Divine creation are in contradiction. The ToE says literally nothing one way or the other when it comes to creation as it deals with life after it began to form. I grew up in a church that said they were incompatible, and I left the church for that and also another reason.

BTW, I had thoughts about going into the ministry within that denomination but decided against it even before I left. If a denomination and/or church cannot tell the truth and teaches lies, there's no way I could or would stay.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I see. Again -- the problem in this context is really how did life come about? By a chance meeting of chemicals? How did it develop, after that?

Long story. Are you genuinely interested?

Did God do what the Bible says He did in Genesis?

Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: No, and anyone who's hung up on that part is missing the point of Genesis.

Long answer: No, because the "long story" alluded to above would have been utterly beyond Hebrews of the 6th century BC to express in any meaningful way.

Humans are curious critters, as I mentioned before, and it's an unfortunate consequence of our insatiable curiosity that when we can't find sufficient answers, we sometimes make them.
This is not necessarily a bad thing -- mythology is a beautiful tradition that has influenced art and literature for thousands of years. But when faced with a myth, the answer to "did it actually happen like that?" is never yes or no, but rather, "That's not the point."

You have in Genesis a story which tells you that you are alienated from your God, and that you must work to reconcile that relationship. How many little details do you need to get bogged down in?

Did fish really evolve to eventually become humans? Did plants evolve to eventually become humans?

Nope.

All life: fish, plants, humans, everything... evolved from one single organism. the fish and plants are not our ancestors; they're more like our very distant cousins...

Please note, the mechanics of genetics is not evolution as I see it, and this is where the details get interesting and arguments might ensue.

Are we talking about evolution "as you see it," or evolution as it actually is?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What a charming god.
Won't let Pharoah change his mind. Then
murders countless children to make him
change his mind.................

Sure Pharaoh could change his mind.
Each one of the ten plagues humiliated one or more of the Egyptian gods.
Not only Pharaoh but most Egyptians went along with him - 1st Samuel 6:6; Exodus 8:15; 8:32
So, it was Pharaoh who brought the death of the first born upon the Egyptians. First born does Not mean just a minor child.

 

[Audie]

Sure Pharaoh could change his mind.
Each one of the ten plagues humiliated one or more of the Egyptian gods.
Not only Pharaoh but most Egyptians went along with him - 1st Samuel 6:6; Exodus 8:15; 8:32
So, it was Pharaoh who brought the death of the first born upon the Egyptians. First born does Not mean just a minor child.

"And I will harden pharaohs heart, and multiply my wonders in the land of egypt."

You must figure that killing innocent children is
ok if " god " sends an angel to do his dirty work.

That he is a almighty bumbler who could not
control someone's decision by " hardening" them.

Or think of softening his heart so he does not "need"
to kill children.

Not that any of it really happened amy more than
Noah's ark but it's easy to see how what an
author referred to as " killer angels ".

Christian goons who kill for God.
Their charming role model.

Those who rationalize, excuse, glorify
KILLING CHILDREN are not a micron better.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Genesis parents did Not put any of their children on the Ark.
The Egyptians did Not put blood on the door frames to save their children.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...............He didn't know, but he told his disciples that their generation would not pass away until it all happened. (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32)
Needless to say, their generation passed away and things kept on keeping on... clearly some reinterpretation was in order.

Yes, Jesus knew because Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 has both a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The minor was fulfilled in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 .
The MAJOR is for our day, our time frame - Revelation 7:14

 

[Audie]

The Genesis parents did Not put any of their children on the Ark.
The Egyptians did Not put blood on the door frames to save their children.

There was never any ark of course, but, there's
always blame the victim.