Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
What do your sages say about this? Or is this a subject no one speculates on? The subject of how God will fit all those people in Israel, and the rest of the world.
Thanks...
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Regarding Knight and Itwillend
- Thread starter Poisonshady313
- Start date
Thanks...
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
It's a beautiful thing!
Well... At the very least, he'll live long enough to get the job done.
We don't know. Some time after the Messiah comes, death is also supposed to stop happening. But I can tell you that I haven't learned a lot about that, so I can't tell you very much.
He's still just a person, like everyone else. If it was meant for all humans to become immortal, he will be, again, human just like the rest of us.
They would have to live proper lives of Noachides. Islam is set up to do that, so I don't really see a major problem.
Except for the whole Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa standing where the Temple needs to be.
I do believe that by that time, Muslims will stop trying to kill Jews. If not, well...
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
No.
He will get all the nations to worship God. He would be mortified if they worshipped him. He's just a man, and would find it idolatrous to be the center of someone else's worship.
Yup.
HE won't make anyone immortal. Only God alone can do that. And if He makes people immortal, I don't see why Jews should live longer than anyone else.
Teach them to believe in God, like everyone else who doesn't believe as we do. Gently.
It's a pleasure!
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
My point being, there is a greater meaning to such things, including Israel, the holy land and Messiah......
but I'll leave you to swim in the surface....
Of course there are deeper meanings, lessons to be learned, metaphors, etc...
But these compliment the literal understanding... not replace them.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Jews don't see it "literally alone"... but unlike some, we don't forsake a literal understanding .
The simple fact that Judaic scripture can be read and interpreted in many many many ways... makes the idea of seeing it figuratively alone... rather stupid in my opinion.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
So let me guess....
You believe there really was a Jew that lived in a fish called Jonah?
Noah really did build an ark and put thousands of animals on it...during a global floodZ?
What about the big problem that scripture says that any temple not built by God will fall?
DO we take this literally too or just ignore it and go ahead?Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I would suggest that you are not familiar enough with Maimonides to know such things.
Being familiar with the Jewish law that Maimonides taught (even if it isn't specifically inside of HIS work, the law is still the same), I can tell you that a person can be born Jewish, if his or her mother was Jewish. A person can convert to Judaism.
People can leave Judaism, by belonging to different religions. (Well... not really. They may act within their new religion, but God will always consider them a Jew. Who sinned by leaving Judaism.)
Interesting... They would be wrong, but it is definitely interesting.
There are ALWAYS greater meanings to all KINDS of things. But sometimes, Jewish law is clear cut and simple. It isn't always, so we glory in those times where it is.
Whatever that means...
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Dunno. I never cared enough about the matter to look into it.
Sorry to be unhelpful.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
However harmonious is advocating literalism....
there are many jews afterall....Myself, I come from a long line of atheist Jews:flirt:
I have to hang my Mezuzah next week, just bought a house
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Yup. But it wasn't that simple.
Ah. That one is a good question. Some Jews DO believe it is literal. I don't know what to tell you.What about the big problem that scripture says that any temple not built by God will fall?
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Oh, good heavens, no! There is the whole Oral Law that goes with it. You won't find that inside the text. Trust me, Mr. Cheese, Poisonshady knows me better than most human beings. He's my baby brother.
It's good to know you.
It's a beautiful thing. I wish you much success and many blessings in your new home.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Well I actually read that in maimonides writing, I',m going home now...after work, but its on my blog so if I remember I'll post it....
There is a reason why maimonides is consider a "naughty man" by many Jews throughout history..... this idea being one I would imagine
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
If a person believes in miracles, which you obviously don't, they'd have no problem believing these things.
But more to the point regarding the topic of this thread, I don't see what's so horrible about the notion that the world peace, the ingathering of the exiles, the building of the third temple, etc... are actual promises and not just fluffy metaphors.
What's the problem with this?What about the big problem that scripture says that any temple not built by God will fall?
Heneni
Miss Independent
And another few questions:
1. Will the messiah come to build the temple or will the jews build the temple to usher in the arrival of the messiah and how will the muslims agree to remove their mosque and I believe from what i hear, a muslim graveyard in the place that the temple should be built.
2. How do you propose the christians who are waiting for the coming of christ on the clouds will accept the jewish messiah as you see him.
3. Will the jewish messiah have a bride?
4. Is there any period of wrath prophecied to come upon this earth from a jewish perspective?
5. Who will judge the inhabitants of the world?
6. Do jews believe in satan
7. Do jews believe in the Holy Spirit
8. How do you imagine animal sacrifice will be accepted among stern anti-animal cruelty activists?
9. Will the jewish messiah restore the earth and save it from global warming?
10. What happens when the real jewish messiah dies, if he is not immortal? Will he have an heir?
11. How will the jewish messiah deal with folk that just wont convert or believe?
1. Will the messiah come to build the temple or will the jews build the temple to usher in the arrival of the messiah and how will the muslims agree to remove their mosque and I believe from what i hear, a muslim graveyard in the place that the temple should be built.
2. How do you propose the christians who are waiting for the coming of christ on the clouds will accept the jewish messiah as you see him.
3. Will the jewish messiah have a bride?
4. Is there any period of wrath prophecied to come upon this earth from a jewish perspective?
5. Who will judge the inhabitants of the world?
6. Do jews believe in satan
7. Do jews believe in the Holy Spirit
8. How do you imagine animal sacrifice will be accepted among stern anti-animal cruelty activists?
9. Will the jewish messiah restore the earth and save it from global warming?
10. What happens when the real jewish messiah dies, if he is not immortal? Will he have an heir?
11. How will the jewish messiah deal with folk that just wont convert or believe?
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Harmonious can fill in what I can't come up with... but I'll give it a shot.
I've heard a few different versions regarding the building of the temple... some say Jews will build it to usher in the arrival... some say the Messiah will be responsible for building it, like Solomon was... some say it's already built in heaven, and when the Messiah comes it will take its place.
I don't know how the Muslim buildings will be removed. Maybe that's part of what happens in the war of Gog and Magog.
In the words of Maimonides, "But when the anointed king will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray."
Yes. Not because it's written anywhere... but because he would be incomplete as a Jewish person if he didn't marry and have children.
The war of Gog and Magog. Read up on Ezekiel.
Ultimately, God. But the Messiah will serve as a judge between nations.
Satan is an angel of God, and does exactly what God programmed him to do (as is the case with all angels).
I'm gonna let someone else handle that one.
Isaiah 11:9 ... for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
They'll come to understand that it's necessary for the service of God.
I'll leave that one to someone else.
I suppose that's the idea.
Nobody will be expected to convert. But all will believe... except, I imagine, those whom the Messiah will defeat in battle in the war of Gog and Magog.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Well I actually read that in maimonides writing, I',m going home now...after work, but its on my blog so if I remember I'll post it....
It is good to know that you read from the Rambam, but I'm willing to bet that you only covered the tip of the iceberg. Rambam is huge, and if you've only read a little bit, you have actually missed quite a lot.
Shabbat Shalom!
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Poisonshady did such an awesome job answering questions, I only have two I'm going to answer.
There IS no graveyard there. Since Muhammad saw these places in his vision and the first of the Rashidun declared them holy places, no body would have been buried there.
There are many things that the Jews and Muslims disagree about, no question. But one of the many things we happen to agree upon is that dead human bodies confer Tum'a upon a person.
The concept of Tum'a and Tahara don't translate at all into English, certainly not into nice, concise words that are instantly meaningful. The word Tahor is often, and badly (although conveniently) translated to mean pure, or clean. The word Tam'ei (the adjective form of the noun Tum'a) is often, and badly (but just as conveniently) translated to mean impure, unclean, defiled.
In order to give a more accurate depiction, the best you're going to get for Tahor is "state of being whereby things are permitted." What are those things? It depends on what you want to do. Most often, things that are Tahor are permitted to enter the Temple, or are permitted to be eaten by a Cohen who is also Tahor. And the reverse is that Tam'ei is actually translated best into "state of being whereby things are forbidden." Like entering the Temple, or being forbidden to eat the parts of sacrifices people were permitted to eat, or having sex with one's spouse.
One of those things that impart Tum'a is a dead body. There is no way that Muslims would purposefully make Tum'a a specific piece of land that their own hadiths declare is Tahor and holy.
By the way... Tahor and Tamei are concepts that translate precisely and accurately between Hebrew and Arabic, whereas it is clunky and STILL not quite accurate between Hebrew and English.
Another fun fact... The Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa are actually on a fault line. These buildings were destroyed no fewer than four times in history already, and were rebuilt to the glorious buildings you see there today. (I hate the fact that they are there, but there is no getting around the fact that they were built to impress. That was very much Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan's idea.) As such, I believe that when it is time for the Temple to be there, God will make use of the natural resources, and an earthquake will happen, and the buildings will go bye-bye.
However, I pray with all of my heart and soul that no human will be in either building when such a thing occurs.
(See? Not a real answer.)
But I'm not too worried. God will do a good job.
About that... While Poisonshady answered quite nicely about the Messiah and who will build the Temple, we need to fill you in on the "Muslim Graveyard..."
There IS no graveyard there. Since Muhammad saw these places in his vision and the first of the Rashidun declared them holy places, no body would have been buried there.
There are many things that the Jews and Muslims disagree about, no question. But one of the many things we happen to agree upon is that dead human bodies confer Tum'a upon a person.
The concept of Tum'a and Tahara don't translate at all into English, certainly not into nice, concise words that are instantly meaningful. The word Tahor is often, and badly (although conveniently) translated to mean pure, or clean. The word Tam'ei (the adjective form of the noun Tum'a) is often, and badly (but just as conveniently) translated to mean impure, unclean, defiled.
In order to give a more accurate depiction, the best you're going to get for Tahor is "state of being whereby things are permitted." What are those things? It depends on what you want to do. Most often, things that are Tahor are permitted to enter the Temple, or are permitted to be eaten by a Cohen who is also Tahor. And the reverse is that Tam'ei is actually translated best into "state of being whereby things are forbidden." Like entering the Temple, or being forbidden to eat the parts of sacrifices people were permitted to eat, or having sex with one's spouse.
One of those things that impart Tum'a is a dead body. There is no way that Muslims would purposefully make Tum'a a specific piece of land that their own hadiths declare is Tahor and holy.
By the way... Tahor and Tamei are concepts that translate precisely and accurately between Hebrew and Arabic, whereas it is clunky and STILL not quite accurate between Hebrew and English.
Another fun fact... The Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa are actually on a fault line. These buildings were destroyed no fewer than four times in history already, and were rebuilt to the glorious buildings you see there today. (I hate the fact that they are there, but there is no getting around the fact that they were built to impress. That was very much Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan's idea.) As such, I believe that when it is time for the Temple to be there, God will make use of the natural resources, and an earthquake will happen, and the buildings will go bye-bye.
However, I pray with all of my heart and soul that no human will be in either building when such a thing occurs.
I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean, I think I do, but...
(See? Not a real answer.)
I think global warming is something that only God Himself can fix. No human being, no matter how cool and miraculous he is, can do that kind of thing.
But I'm not too worried. God will do a good job.
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Heneni
Miss Independent
Thanks.
1. Do jews view christians as heretics because they believe jesus is their saviour?
2. Christians arent waiting for a messiah to be born they are waiting for their saviour to come back 'on the clouds'. Can all of them be wrong?
3. Arent muslims also waiting for the return of their god from the east?
4. If the jewish messiah is born and comes to bring peace on earth, does that mean war before peace?
1. Do jews view christians as heretics because they believe jesus is their saviour?
2. Christians arent waiting for a messiah to be born they are waiting for their saviour to come back 'on the clouds'. Can all of them be wrong?
3. Arent muslims also waiting for the return of their god from the east?
4. If the jewish messiah is born and comes to bring peace on earth, does that mean war before peace?
　
If I may I am going to attempt this question with the knowledge that I have from the various followers of judaism which happen to be of my acquaintance.
　
Not as most christians view what they call holy ghost or holy spirit but rather their understanding is from the Hebrew as the Ruach Ha Chodesh. This literally means the set-apart breath or wind.
　
I believe it in the same way as I just offered but I believe that the comparison stops there because I do not think, and I could be wrong, that our understandings go hand in hand from that point on. My understanding of the Ruach Ha Chodesh is any and all malachs (angels) that are for Yah are set-apart winds or breaths. Only a unclean malach which would be the follower of Helel be considered a demon and therefore not set-apart. I believe it be the set-apart malachs that work all the wondrous works performed by man as was in the case of Moshe as well as anyone else that has been said to do miracles. Yes and that includes Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed. No flesh and blood man, of his own, ever created or worked a miracle. It was either by the will of Yah through his set-apart malachs or through the demons of Helel. These things would be done for the amazement of the people to convince them of one thing or another or one way or another. Only those that knew or know truth and follow it succeed in understanding the differences between the two. Remember that no miracles were ever shown of Yahshua until after his purification when it was said that the Ruach Ha Chodesh came down as a dove possessed him. A set-apart malach would not enter into that which is unclean but after his purification he was squeaky clean.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
So let me guess....
You believe there really was a Jew that lived in a fish called Jonah?
Noah really did build an ark and put thousands of animals on it...during a global floodZ?
What about the big problem that scripture says that any temple not built by God will fall?
I explained in the thread with Itwillend about Jewish interpretation of scripture.
There are four methods of interpretation:
From what I understand, the Christian "anti-Christ" is very similar to the Messiah.
It is likely that he will.
Only God is judge.
Yes. Satan is a loyal angel of God who's job is to provide us with the opportunity to overcome our animal nature and improve ourselves.
Global warming is a scientific non-issue.
It won't be a matter of converting or believing. It will simply be apparent that there is a God. Just as it is apparent that the sky is blue.
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
They certainly view Jews who convert to a belief in Jesus as heretics...
It occurs to me that when Christians use the word "savior" they use it as a reference to the Messiah.
Jews use the word "savior" in reference to God.
Since we don't believe that the Messiah will be God, we don't refer to the Messiah as our Savior.
So the belief that Jesus is God surely registers as being considered idolatry.
A heretic is a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her institution of faith or rejects doctrines prescribed by that institution of faith.
I don't think people of one faith are fully qualified to judge the followers of a whole other faith as being heretics...
But again: Jews certainly view Jews who convert to a belief in Jesus as heretics.
Yes.
No. Their "Mahdi"... their "12th Imam" will be a human. Important and impressive... but certainly not a god. Certainly not Allah.
Indeed. Refer to the book of Ezekiel, particularly chapter 39.