Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Shiranui117]

When you compare an angel becoming god ... to a human soul exchanging bodies,
that's totally different kettles of water!

I did not say that angels became God. I said that angels speaking on behalf of God were spoken of as being God.

For example, in Exodus 3:

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

Or Genesis 16:
11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi;[a] observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

Or Judges 2, where the Angel of the Lord speaks as if he is God Himself:

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side,[a] and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.

Believe me, I can go on and on.

saying I am not a certain dead person but I am another (perhaps another dead person) only means that he chose to be a different person, not that it is impossible to be the mentioned dead person.

Jesus didn't say He was any dead person. He affirmed Peter when he called Him "the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

First:
their writings? ... are you sure that Mark, Paul, Luke .. etc are apostles writings? ...
Even the first gospel are you sure it is an apostle's writing? .. or the fourth? or any other?

I'm thinking of the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Barnabas, etc, etc... In other words, the direct students of the Apostles, and early Christians who were around when the Apostles were still alive.

second:
What we have says they DID believe in reincarnation, they believed he was talking about the baptist when he was talking about Elijah, so please memorise this:

((Elijah equals the Baptist)) --> jesus said so, disciples believe so .. you must accept it.

~(@ [ Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.] @)~

I know that verse very well by now. Unfortunately for you though, it doesn't quite mean what you want it to mean.

Elijah is an OT character, dead long before John the Baptist was born.
What sense can you deduce from that other than reincarnation?

This would work, but then there's the fact that Elijah never died.


Elijah Ascends to Heaven

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. . .
6 Then Elijah said to him, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to the Jordan.”
But he said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So the two of them went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”
Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”
10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


In other words, Elijah was taken up ALIVE into Heaven.


When they said to him that people say he is one of the old prophets ..
same thing as above ... simple, clear, in the face reincarnation.

You asked if there was a final death, I said please check revelation, right?
now you came up with two deaths .. perhaps three .. the more the merrier!

No, there is no "perhaps three deaths." There are ONLY two, and the two deaths are different from one another. The first death is the physical death where the soul separates from the body, the second death is the spiritual death, where one rejects God and distances themselves from Him Who is the Source of Life.

Because he made no mistake, he just said what is commonly known between people of his time, ... nothing to do with anyone being ashamed, Herod's status .. etc.

Reincarnation wasn't a Jewish idea. It only began to gain a foothold in Judaism over a thousand years later, through Kabbalist or Hasidic writings, and even then it was widely criticised by more orthodox Jews.

 

[Shiranui117]

ok people who thought jesus was the reincarnation of John the Baptist, were pretty irrational. Those who thought that John was the reincarnation of Elijah. Is there any proof he wasn't? Now, I am not trying to challenge the christian doctrines, as I am not sure either. But isn't there any possibility that reincarnation is indeed supported by the bible, as some claim?

note: I am talking about possibility here. Not certainty.

Here's the thing: Elijah never died, so that would toss out the possibility of John the Baptist being Elijah's reincarnated self. Plus, the "two witnesses" spoken of in Revelations are almost universally agreed to be Elijah, and either Moses or Enoch.

i know it sounds stupid, but why not? wouldn't that mean we are given all the chances necessary to achieve theosis? Now i am not supporting the idea, personally. But why shouldn't we be open to it?

Even if we only believe in one life, we still have a really good chance of getting some good process on Theosis. Once we die, the living can pray for us and vice-versa, which would give us help and grace in continuing our Theosis while we're dead. Reincarnation, on the other hand, would basically put us back to square one every time we're reborn. For instance, think of it this way:

-In one life, we're a good, faithful Christian who loves God and acts in perfect accordance with His Will.
-In our next life, we're born into, say, an atheist family that is routinely harrassed and persecuted by Christians and Muslims, and so we hate both the Abrahamic religions and their God because of the suffering they have caused us and our family.

So in one life, you can make GREAT amounts of progress in your journey of Theosis, but in the next life, all that progress you made can be completely erased. IMHO, the only difference between reincarnation and living one life, in terms of net advantage, is the extra time. In terms of the actual potential to achieve theosis, the chances are the same in either system to either make progress or go in the opposite direction. More chances to achieve theosis doesn't necessarily mean more LIKELIHOOD to achieve theosis.

 

[Xchristian]

I'm thinking of the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Barnabas, etc, etc... In other words, the direct students of the Apostles, and early Christians who were around when the Apostles were still alive.

that too is in dispute, we still can't confirm those things, check Dr Herman Detering's writings about Paul being an imanginary person.

I know that verse very well by now. Unfortunately for you though, it doesn't quite mean what you want it to mean.

This would work, but then there's the fact that Elijah never died.

Elijah Ascends to Heaven

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. . .
6 Then Elijah said to him, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to the Jordan.”
But he said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So the two of them went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”
Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”
10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

I already know all that, but the baptist was only 30 or so when jesus began his ministry, so you are still facing the same problem.

a centuries old person is born in a different body centuries later.

When they said to him that people say he is one of the old prophets ..
same thing as above ... simple, clear, in the face reincarnation.

you mean all those have not died and they were born again with jesus?

No, there is no "perhaps three deaths." There are ONLY two, and the two deaths are different from one another. The first death is the physical death where the soul separates from the body, the second death is the spiritual death, where one rejects God and distances themselves from Him Who is the Source of Life.

again, live, die, live again, die again ... so the concept is proven.

Reincarnation wasn't a Jewish idea. It only began to gain a foothold in Judaism over a thousand years later, through Kabbalist or Hasidic writings, and even then it was widely criticised by more orthodox Jews.

Now you are talking on behalf of jews which is a dangerous thing to do.
The scriptures we have confirm it, and you go against it.

can't help but put you through it again.

 

[JayJayDee]

I believe Jesus is not limited to whatever Jews thought but had the knowledge of God available to Him.

Jesus was Jewish. He taught what God told him to teach. Nothing about the Jewish teaching of resurrection had changed, except for the ones Christ would take to heaven...that was a new idea.

His disciples always believed that the kingdom would be established on earth with Messiah as King and they as priests over the literal nation of God's people. Even after three and a half years in close company with the Christ, they still didn't understand that he would take some to heaven. Christ's choosing them to rule with him in heaven was something only the holy spirit could reveal. Even as he was ascending to heaven they asked...“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

Even when Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for them, they still didn't understand that it was in heaven. The Jews only understood resurrection back to a physical body on earth. Every resurrection performed in the Bible was back to life in the flesh.
It was only with the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost, that they fully understood all that their anointing meant. (Rev 20:6) A strong desire was implanted in their hearts to go to be with their Lord in heaven. This is not to be confused with the natural desire in man to live in paradise. We are all supposed to live there because that is where God first placed humankind. We are not 'programmed' for death or suffering or pain because it was never meant to happen.

That is why Jews could speak about John or Elijah...because they believed that these could be brought back in the flesh...NOT reincarnated but resurrected.

I haven't seen any evidence to support this notion. I believe early Christians saw their own beliefs reflected in Plato and therefore considered Plato to be a wise man.

The notion of an immortal soul was a teaching of the devil. It carried on the lie that he told Eve in the garden. He told her "you will surely not die", when God had told them they 'surely would'. Satan perpetuated that lie by planting the idea that you go on living in another form (invisible) in another realm.

Where did God tell Adam he was going after he sinned? To Hell? A place of punishment? If such a place exists then surely the one responsible for the death of the entire human race deserved to go there. God simply told Adam he would 'die and return to the dust'...nothing more. (Gen 3:17-19) Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life.

So then, how does one explain resurrection which is a return to a previously dead body. If the spirit died with the body there would be no return? IMO resurrection is simply re-incarnation into the same body.

One first has to know the difference between "soul" and "spirit". People confuse them as if they mean the same thing. Not so.

Again, go back to Eden.
"And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul" (Gen 2:7)
Adam was not 'given' a soul...he 'became' one with the "breath" (spirit) of life.

Adam was a soul. The formula is simple. Body + breath (spirit) = soul.

There is no immaterial part of man that departs from the body at death. The "spirit" is the breath that animates every cell in a human being. Without breath, cells are deprived of oxygen and the human organism that is the soul, dies. When death occurs, all thinking processes cease. (Psalm 146:4; Eccl 9:5, 6, 10, Ezek 18:4)

We die because of Adam's disobedience. His perfect mortal body was supposed to live forever. There was the "tree of life" in the garden that guaranteed continued life as long as they were obedient. (Gen 3:22) When they disobeyed, they lost their human perfection and became defective. This defect was then passed on to their children. (Rom 5:12)

The "tree of life" was then put 'off limits' by God. In fact he went to a lot of trouble to make sure that they never had access to it again. (Gen 3:23, 24)

They lost so much when they decided to bring a knowledge of evil into the world. Once it was unleashed, there was no taking it back, so God allowed things to play out naturally and implemented a rescue mission right there in Eden to rectify the situation. (Gen 3:15) He took the long range view and allowed the first humans to fulfill the mandate to "fill the earth" with their "kind".

At the end of the allotted time (yes God has a schedule, but it is not in earth years) he will have tested humanity, who will then be ready and willing to be obedient to his will, knowing that it was always for their benefit. They have seen first hand the results of disobedience and will not want to go there again. Precedents will be set that will benefit mankind for all eternity.
The rebels will be identified and weeded out (both on earth and in the spirit realm where rebellion began,) never to be seen again. God's first purpose will be brought to it's completion.

The end result is what most humans long for...peace and security on an earthly paradise under God's loving rulership. The only problem is, God's adversary has been permitted to test the human race to see who will be willingly misled and who will actively resist the devil's deceptions. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

Those who accepted Jesus as Messiah in the first century, did so under huge public backlash. Like their Master, they willingly submitted to imprisonment, torture and death to uphold the truth. No compromise.

Today we see the same scenario. Only a relatively small number can see the truth and uphold it. This results in imprisonment, torture and death for some, but like the first Christians they will not compromise.

"‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Rev 2:9, 10)

This is what true Christians are experiencing in some nations. Others have ridicule and scorn even from those who consider themselves "Christians". (John 15:18-20; 2 Pet 3:3, 4)

Hearts are speaking to God every day and telling Him whether they love the truth or the devil's lies.

 

[Shiranui117]

that too is in dispute, we still can't confirm those things, check Dr Herman Detering's writings about Paul being an imanginary person.

I'm not even talking about Paul at this point. Unless you want to say all the people I mentioned are imaginary, you're fighting a losing battle.

I already know all that, but the baptist was only 30 or so when jesus began his ministry, so you are still facing the same problem.

Not really. John the Baptist can't be Elijah reincarnated if Elijah never died. It's not a hard concept to understand. I'm not entirely sure how you're not getting it.

a centuries old person is born in a different body centuries later.

Without ever dying?

you mean all those have not died and they were born again with jesus?

Being "born again" in Baptism is entirely different from reincarnation.

again, live, die, live again, die again ... so the concept is proven.

Only if you deliberately twist, crunch, smash and distort the text to say something that it isn't stating, isn't hinting at, and isn't implying.

Now you are talking on behalf of jews which is a dangerous thing to do.
The scriptures we have confirm it, and you go against it.

You don't get to restate your original point after I've disproved it.

And I see you're not offering any evidence to disprove what I've said.

can't help but put you through it again.[/quote]
Can't help but disprove you again.

 

[Xchristian]

I'm not even talking about Paul at this point. Unless you want to say all the people I mentioned are imaginary, you're fighting a losing battle.

no I am not fighting a lost cause, and I am actually saying so.

Not really. John the Baptist can't be Elijah reincarnated if Elijah never died. It's not a hard concept to understand. I'm not entirely sure how you're not getting it.

Elijah never died (assumed) ... but born again only 30 earlier or so?

Without ever dying?

the people suggested so ... jesus didn't tell them it's impossible, so yes, that's reincarnation.

Being "born again" in Baptism is entirely different from reincarnation.

I understand, but now you are saying that Elijah was born twice, once a few hundred years first, then again only a few years before jesus claimed his claim.

Only if you deliberately twist, crunch, smash and distort the text to say something that it isn't stating, isn't hinting at, and isn't implying.

that's what you are trying to do, unfortunately.

You don't get to restate your original point after I've disproved it.

you haven't .. you only tried to say that the soul of the baptist has taken two different bodies a few centuries apart. that's all.

And I see you're not offering any evidence to disprove what I've said.

can't help but put you through it again
Can't help but disprove you again.

How can the person beheaded be jesus {Herod said so, bible didn't offer any explanation because it's the norm. R.E.I.N.C.A.N.A.T.I.O.N

 

[Shiranui117]

no I am not fighting a lost cause, and I am actually saying so.

Then have fun arguing against historians who have studied Christian history. If your only defense against the overwhelming testimony of the Apostles and their students is to say that they never existed and every single one of their writings was made up, then that's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Lalalalala!"

Elijah never died (assumed) ... but born again only 30 earlier or so?

Now you're not making sense.

the people suggested so ... jesus didn't tell them it's impossible, so yes, that's reincarnation.

No one ever said Elijah died. Sorry, try again.

I understand, but now you are saying that Elijah was born twice, once a few hundred years first, then again only a few years before jesus claimed his claim.

Where in God's green earth did I say that?

that's what you are trying to do, unfortunately.

Pot calling the kettle black. Care to try and twist around the Scriptures I've posted that affirm resurrection, not reincarnation? You told me to look up Revelation, I did so, and guess what? Revelation supports Resurrection, not reincarnation, and ever since I've refuted your claims, you've backpedaled to your original assertions without adding anything new.

you haven't .. you only tried to say that the soul of the baptist has taken two different bodies a few centuries apart. that's all.

I think you're confusing what you're saying with what I'm saying.

How can the person beheaded be jesus {Herod said so, bible didn't offer any explanation because it's the norm. R.E.I.N.C.A.N.A.T.I.O.N

I don't think you even know what you're talking about at this point. And now you're just going in circles, back to square one.

 

[Xchristian]

Then have fun arguing against historians who have studied Christian history. If your only defense against the overwhelming testimony of the Apostles and their students is to say that they never existed and every single one of their writings was made up, then that's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Lalalalala!"

Hermann Detering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

check link above please

Now you're not making sense.

No one ever said Elijah died. Sorry, try again.

explain this please:

Elijah was born ... a few centuries later Elijah was born again ...

take your time.

Where in God's green earth did I say that?

you will when you answer the request above please.

Pot calling the kettle black. Care to try and twist around the Scriptures I've posted that affirm resurrection, not reincarnation? You told me to look up Revelation, I did so, and guess what? Revelation supports Resurrection, not reincarnation, and ever since I've refuted your claims, you've backpedaled to your original assertions without adding anything new.

you looked up at revelation and came up with two deaths, and there's one before, that's three, look again you will find more!

I think you're confusing what you're saying with what I'm saying.

when you have answered the first request (in clear plain direct, in my face kind of English, you will realise it.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about at this point. And now you're just going in circles, back to square one.

because all your defence was: 'can't Herod possibly be wrong?'

but you didn't answer the focal point. He says jesus is the person I beheaded. people around him didn't laugh, i.e. they and he and jesus believed in reincarnation.

 

[Shiranui117]

Hermann Detering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

check link above please

Where in that link does Hermann Detering say that Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, two people who taught resurrection and not reincarnation, and who were the direct and personal students of St. John the Apostle, never existed? Where does that link say that Justin Martyr, a teacher of resurrection and not reincarnation, never existed?

explain this please:

Elijah was born ... a few centuries later Elijah was born again ...

take your time.

John the Baptist was born, not Elijah.

you will when you answer the request above please.

Nope, sorry, your prediction was off.

you looked up at revelation and came up with two deaths, and there's one before, that's three, look again you will find more!

I would ask rather scathingly about your ability to read and comprehend a text, but I'd get modded. So I will restrain myself.

when you have answered the first request (in clear plain direct, in my face kind of English, you will realise it.

I answered it, and your prediction didn't come true.

because all your defence was: 'can't Herod possibly be wrong?'

More defensible than rejecting both Jesus and His Apostles, and the students of the Apostles.

but you didn't answer the focal point. He says jesus is the person I beheaded. people around him didn't laugh, i.e. they and he and jesus believed in reincarnation.

Let me lay out the timeline for you, very simply:

1: John the Baptist was born. (0 AD)
2: Jesus was born. (0 AD)
3: John the Baptist baptized Jesus. (30 AD)
4: John the Baptist gets beheaded. (30-33 AD)

Now, do you see how Jesus was born at least 30 years before John the Baptist died?

That means that Jesus can't possibly be John the Baptist reincarnated. It's not logical, it's not possible, it doesn't fit any known definition of reincarnation, or any of that. How you can't grasp this simple fact completely bewilders me.

As it stands now, this conversation is entirely pointless and I'm not getting anything accomplished wasting my time here, not as long as you completely ignore what I'm saying and what the text says. May God bless and keep you. I'm out.

 

[Xchristian]

Where in that link does Hermann Detering say that Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, two people who taught resurrection and not reincarnation, and who were the direct and personal students of St. John the Apostle, never existed? Where does that link say that Justin Martyr, a teacher of resurrection and not reincarnation, never existed?

Have you read the article? if not read it again. please.

John the Baptist was born, not Elijah.

you mean the baptist was born both times?

Nope, sorry, your prediction was off.

simply because you didn't answer.

I would ask rather scathingly about your ability to read and comprehend a text, but I'd get modded. So I will restrain myself.

you did all else anyway!

I answered it, and your prediction didn't come true.

where is the answer? you just said the baptist was born. so perhaps you are either denying Elijah was born, or that the baptist was born twice!

please answer this one (it's the same question)

you can use number to make it easy for you:

1- John the Baptist was born twice
2- Elijah was not born

just put 1 or 2.

More defensible than rejecting both Jesus and His Apostles, and the students of the Apostles.

try that.

Let me lay out the timeline for you, very simply:

1: John the Baptist was born. (0 AD)
2: Jesus was born. (0 AD)
3: John the Baptist baptized Jesus. (30 AD)
4: John the Baptist gets beheaded. (30-33 AD)

Now, do you see how Jesus was born at least 30 years before John the Baptist died?

Excellent, how can the baptist be Elijah then?

That means that Jesus can't possibly be John the Baptist reincarnated. It's not logical, it's not possible, it doesn't fit any known definition of reincarnation, or any of that. How you can't grasp this simple fact completely bewilders me.

but Herod said so, I can either believe you or the gospel.

 

[Ken Brown]

jesus thought the Elijah of the OT is the baptist, look.

Hi Xchristian, I agree, let's look a little closer at the Scriptures. For you to assume that "Jesus" is declaring that John the Baptist is the REINCARNATED Elijah, I would suggest that you look at the following.

1. At the transfiguration, was it Elijah or John the Baptist attending? Yeshua said that no man born of women is greater than John, why wasn't John there instead of Elijah? (Matt 17:3-4)

2. The Angel Gabriel stated that John the Baptist would go before Yeshua, "in the SPIRIT and POWER of Elijah." (Luke 1:17) Can't you follow in the SPIRIT and POWER of someone who lived before you and be yourself, instead of that reincarnated person you are following after?

3. Elisha requested of Elijah that he be given a double portion of Elijah's SPIRIT (while they both were still alive). (2 Kings 2:9) Was Elisha a reincarnated Elijah while they were both still living?

4. The SPIRIT of Elijah rested or fell on Elisha. (2 Kings 2:15) Again, was Elisha a reincarnated Elijah while they both lived?

Now, Xchristian, considering that at the Transfiguration, only Elijah's name is mentioned and not John the Baptist's, and considering that John the Baptist would go before Yeshua in the SPIRIT and POWER of Elijah, and considering that even while Elijah was yet alive, a double portion of Elijah's SPIRIT fell or rested upon Elisha, I would say that your case of John the Baptist being the reincarnated Elijah is stretching the imagination a little further than it should. John the Baptist came AS Elijah, IN his SPIRIT and POWER, not as a reincarnated being. Sorry, you need to re-think what Yeshua meant and how the disciples looked at it. KB

 

[Me Myself]

I wonder which were the original jewish words that were translated into "spirit", maybe they would have had diffrent interpretations in different contexts?

In any case, I find it interesting that Jesus saw Elijah AFTER John died. I see no reason why his spirit form would have been forced to talk to Jesus as John if it wanted to talk to him as Elijah.

Jesus was straightforward: John the batist was Elijah. His apostles got it, why can´t other Christians?

 

[Xchristian]

Mr Brown

I hope you are well,
thanks for the contribution.
I would like you to please accept my apologies for not considering this wonderful argument for the reasons below:

1- I hope you have noticed that I am not christian anymore, and thus:
2- I don't believe a word in the scriptures of christians, if I did, I would have been christian, so:
3- the methodology I would accept is based on the following:

a) I give a certain passage, and then need an explanation for it from the same book.
b) a very similar passage from a different book would nearly do the job.

The reason is very valid in my honest opinion which is so:

1- Every book was written at a certain time, by a certain set of authors/one author
2- a different set of authors may well reject/refuse the christology, events of another set of authors.

[proof]

i) The fourth gospel simply ignored all the birth narratives of the first and third
ii) The first 3 gospels [the synoptics] have a totally different jesus from that of the fourth.

SO ...

your argument point number 1 is from Matthew, number 2 from Luke, number 3&4 from the OT.
while my point is from a totally different book written in between 3 and 4 ..and 1 and 2.

Mark's book (assuming the author is called Mark) is a stand alone book, it has got a certain jesus in it, certain ideas, and stands far away from the others.

So you may choose to refer to non Q, M and L materials from the first and third gospels alright,
however they must all be in tandem with Mark, example:

Mark 8:27 and Matthew 16:13

[Mk 8:27][ Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that I am?"]

when Matthew copied this he added thus:

[Mt 16:13][ Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"]

[both NRSV]

you can see clearly Matthew has wished jesus to be the son of man, so replaced (I am) with (the son of man is) ...

scholars put Mark at 65-70 CE whereas Matthew at 70-75CE
so we must say that Matthew redacted that to fit his own view of jesus.

In our example:

Both Luke chose to ignore the bit about Herod saying: (this is john the baptist whom I beheaded) ... perhaps it's too embarrassing, pretty much like a lot of passages in Mark that they chose to simply cut off.

In this particular aspect this is how Matthew chose to put it:

[Mt 14:1][ At that time Herod the ruler heard reports about Jesus;]
[Mt 14:2][ and he said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist; he has been raised from the dead, and for this reason these powers are at work in him."]

instead of Mark 6:16:

[Mk 6:16][ But when Herod heard of it, he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised."]


It's this particular point which we discuss, not other irrelevant stuff like Elisha and Elijah and their relationship, or Luke's watered-down version.

I don't mind you trying to convince yourself that the 'spirit and power' of Elijah is not Elijah reincarnated, but that's a far cry ..

thanks

 

[Xchristian]

4. The SPIRIT of Elijah rested or fell on Elisha. (2 Kings 2:15) Again, was Elisha a reincarnated Elijah while they both lived?

give me a reason why not ... please ...

as our honourable friend said it ... why can't christians accept it?

the answer is because they are very confused.

the manufacturers of xtianity wanted an Esperanto religion, a mixture of Hellenistic, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Pharaonic, Hindu, you name it mixture, so they are confused.

 

[Ken Brown]

I wonder which were the original jewish words that were translated into "spirit", maybe they would have had diffrent interpretations in different contexts?

In any case, I find it interesting that Jesus saw Elijah AFTER John died. I see no reason why his spirit form would have been forced to talk to Jesus as John if it wanted to talk to him as Elijah.

Jesus was straightforward: John the batist was Elijah. His apostles got it, why can´t other Christians?

Hi Me Myself, you say "Jesus" was straightforward? I only see Him being straightforward about the RESURRECTION, not reincarnation. Where is His straightforward explanation of reincarnation? Here are His straightforward words about the RESURRECTION:

Mat 22:29-33
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of G-d.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of G-d in heaven.
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by G-d, saying,
(32) I am the G-d of Abraham, and the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob? G-d is not the G-d of the dead, but of the living.
(33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Luk 14:14
(14) And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luk 20:34-38
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of G-d, being the children of the resurrection.
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the G-d of Abraham, and the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a G-d of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Now Me Myself, these are just only a few of Yeshua "straightforward" statements concerning the RESURRECTION. Please show me ANY of His "straightforward" statements about REINCARNATION? KB

 

[Ken Brown]

give me a reason why not ... please ...

as our honourable friend said it ... why can't christians accept it?

the answer is because they are very confused.

the manufacturers of xtianity wanted an Esperanto religion, a mixture of Hellenistic, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Pharaonic, Hindu, you name it mixture, so they are confused.

Hi Xchristian, I've been trying to come out of confusion, and I know it hasn't been easy, so I don't hold anything against those who have been deceived by the doctrine of reincarnation. KB

 

[Me Myself]

Hi Me Myself, you say "Jesus" was straightforward? I only see Him being straightforward about the RESURRECTION, not reincarnation. Where is His straightforward explanation of reincarnation? Here are His straightforward words about the RESURRECTION:

Mat 22:29-33
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of G-d.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of G-d in heaven.
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by G-d, saying,
(32) I am the G-d of Abraham, and the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob? G-d is not the G-d of the dead, but of the living.
(33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Luk 14:14
(14) And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luk 20:34-38
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of G-d, being the children of the resurrection.
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the G-d of Abraham, and the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a G-d of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Now Me Myself, these are just only a few of Yeshua "straightforward" statements concerning the RESURRECTION. Please show me ANY of His "straightforward" statements about REINCARNATION? KB

First: Resurrection does not necessarily deny reincarnation.

Second: Already told you. His apostles asked him about Elias and he said he was already here and people treated him like they wanted and the disciples understood he was talking about John the Baptist.

It´s also really interesting to see the parallelisms between Elias and Eliash´s miracles and Jesus ones.

 

[Ken Brown]

give me a reason why not ... please ...

Hi Xchristian, what, are you saying that Elisha had multiple personality disorder, and lived as two people at the same time? KB

 

[Me Myself]

Hi Xchristian, what, are you saying that Elisha had multiple personality disorder, and lived as two people at the same time? KB

Does God have multiple personality disorder?

If God have wanted to grant Elisha the power to do that, would He have been unable to?

 

[Ken Brown]

First: Resurrection does not necessarily deny reincarnation

Hi Me Myself, sure it does, it totally denies the resurrection. Why didn't Paul have a hope in reincarnation?

Act 23:6
(6) But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Why wasn't Paul called into question for the hope in reincarnation? Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons, as the demons do not want anyone to have a hope in the resurrection. KB