Religion and homosexuality

[Archer]

When in California the marriage was cancelled for homosexual people again (because of Prop 8), and the LDS "church" was involved in it, I put to myself some questions. A question was, why the religions fight so much against the marriage of homosexual people. Why they spend so much money to keep the civil rights from American citizens. Because to marry is a civil right. A religion has nothing to do with it.
An other question which I put to myself was, why just the LDS was so crazily to prevent gay rights? Is the LDS homophobic, although in their own church history many famous homosexual appeared? Or did they have fear that would be taken away a little bit of their rights, and they could be made accept such marriages ecclesiastically?
Does a connection exist at all between the attacks (verbally, physically, institutionally) on homosexual people, with (Christian) religions?
What do you mean?​

I am going to look at this from another angle, in this country three things above all others are true.
1) This country is run by popular rule, more so on the state level than the national level. It is constantly pointed out that the Christian community is interfering with the civil rights of others, though this may appear to be the case it really is not in their eyes. What we have are new laws being proposed that were not with us in the old days so they can not comprehend it.

If you have an issue based on a physical characteristic this can be seen and is not so much challenged.

If your issue is based on where you were born they can see this.

If your issue is of faith they can see this as well.

Below is from the EEOC:

Protected Class: The groups protected from the employment discrimination by law. These groups include men and women on the basis of sex; any group which shares a common race, religion, color, or national origin; people over 40; and people with physical or mental handicaps. Every U.S. citizen is a member of some protected class, and is entitled to the benefits of EEO law. However, the EEO laws were passed to correct a history of unfavorable treatment of women and minority group members.

Quota: Fixed hiring and promotion rates based on race, sex, or other protected class standards which must be met at all costs. In extreme cases, the courts have assigned quotas to some employers who have continued to practice illegal discrimination. The agency or any other employer cannot use quotas to meet their affirmative action goals unless a court orders it. Quotas are considered discriminatory against males and other non minority people.

Now taking into consideration what is above it becomes a major issue that also ties into the popular opinion. So it is not only about marriage, if it could be separated into differing sections, no protected class for homosexuals, it could lighten the burden and perhaps make it easier to get something passed that would allow same sex marriage.

Yes this does bother us (heterosexual Christian white male)! Why? Because we see a world where no matter what we try to do we will become the only non-protected class and that makes us the minority with no minority rights! Everyone thinks it is about marriage only, there is a lot more to it.

2) Money talks in this country.

 

[Witch of Hope]

But what if the Designer was gay?
.

Good Point. Some Scholars believe, that even Jesus was gay. If this is true, the bible would have a new meaning!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

An other question which I put to myself was, why just the LDS was so crazily to prevent gay rights?

It certainly wasn't "just the LDS". Lots of people from lots of groups supported the "yes on Prop 8" campaign.

Shows how little you know of the complexity of the human body.

I agree. The human body is complex... in a Rube Goldberg sort of way.

 

[Baydwin]

Yes this does bother us (heterosexual Christian white male)! Why? Because we see a world where no matter what we try to do we will become the only non-protected class and that makes us the minority with no minority rights! Everyone thinks it is about marriage only, there is a lot more to it.

So, it's really about you having the power to keep others in their place? To keep someone in your society you're allowed to look down your nose at? That's what I'm reading.

 

[DallasApple]

So, it's really about you having the power to keep others in their place? To keep someone in your society you're allowed to look down your nose at? That's what I'm reading.

I read as fear of not being in charge.the big dog the big Alpha .That if they are "equal' then they lose control ..

Love

Dallas

 

[rageoftyrael]

Baydwin, i'm fairly sure that isn't what archer was saying. and if you read it, and don't give a kneejerk reaction, you would probably see that as well.

 

[Baydwin]

Baydwin, i'm fairly sure that isn't what archer was saying. and if you read it, and don't give a kneejerk reaction, you would probably see that as well.

I've read it several times. Each time I see him saying that one of the reasons he doesn't want to give homosexuals equal rights to "heterosexual white Christian males" is because if he did so that would make his group the only group without protected status. And thus, whilst homosexuals are also without protected status, he still has someone to kick around.

 

[McBell]

Yes this does bother us (heterosexual Christian white male)! Why? Because we see a world where no matter what we try to do we will become the only non-protected class and that makes us the minority with no minority rights! Everyone thinks it is about marriage only, there is a lot more to it.

One would think if this actually had any kind of truth to it at all, that those who are so afraid becoming the "minority" would work to set up the minority would have some say.

So in short, it sounds like a big pile of steaming bull **** to me.

 

[McBell]

I've read it several times. Each time I see him saying that one of the reasons he doesn't want to give homosexuals equal rights to "heterosexual white Christian males" is because if he did so that would make his group the only group without protected status. And thus, whilst homosexuals are also without protected status, he still has someone to kick around.

I have also read it several times and I have to agree with your assessment of the statement.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If marriage is a religious act, then it needs to be removed from the law.

If it is a secular term, then we need to allow gay marriage to avoid discrimination.

I'm for the latter choice. Even if it is originally a religious thing (which I would argue it's originally more of a social custom), it has become secularized in our culture.

 

[McBell]

Even if it is originally a religious thing (which I would argue it's originally more of a social custom), it has become secularized in our culture.

I agree.
Whatever claims on the word marriage that religion MAY have had in the ancient past, they gave up in the ancient past and it is a bit late now to want it back.

 

[Archer]

No, I am saying that to do this opens up too many holes and unless we guarantee that those holes will not open all of the way up gay marriage rights will be hard to come by.

Some think I cant be terminated because I am a heterosexual Christian white male, I can be turned down because of it if things pass. Think about it, if certain things are done I may be passed up for employment because of a quota.

 

[McBell]

No, I am saying that to do this opens up too many holes and unless we guarantee that those holes will not open all of the way up gay marriage rights will be hard to come by.

Some think I cant be terminated because I am a heterosexual Christian white male, I can be turned down because of it if things pass. Think about it, if certain things are done I may be passed up for employment because of a quota.

It would be helpful if you were to quote who you are replying to so that we have a better chance of knowing what you are talking about.

 

[Archer]

It would be helpful if you were to quote who you are replying to so that we have a better chance of knowing what you are talking about.

You Baydwin and Dallas

 

[Smoke]

Yes this does bother us (heterosexual Christian white male)! Why? Because we see a world where no matter what we try to do we will become the only non-protected class and that makes us the minority with no minority rights!

Wrong. The heterosexual Christian white male is just as protected as anybody else.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex apply to discrimination against men as well as to discrimination against women.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race apply to white people as well as to black people.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion apply to Christians as well as to Muslims and Wiccans.

if it were illegal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, that would apply to heterosexuals as well as to homosexuals.

You, as a heterosexual white Christian male, don't value those protections because you have never needed them. Discrimination has always been in your favor. When we stop discriminating against other groups, you're quite right to feel a sense of loss, but it's not the loss that comes with wanton discrimination. It's the loss that comes with no longer belonging to a class whose privileges are enshrined in law.

You aren't discriminated against for being a heterosexual white Christian male. It's just that when there is equality under the laws there is no longer any special privilege associated with being a heterosexual white Christian male, and you have trouble dealing with your loss of special privilege.

All your life, you've been allowed to shoot from the ladies' tee while the rest of us had to shoot from somewhere out on the highway. Now you're being asked to shoot from the regular tee, and being told that the rest of us can shoot from the regular tee, too, and you experience that as discrimination because you have never experienced what is it not to have special privilege.

That's the sad thing about the heterosexual white Christian male. He has no experience whatsoever of being marginalized in his own society, but manages to feel bitterly persecuted if he is not allowed to assert his dominance over every other member of society.

 

[Archer]

Wrong. The heterosexual Christian white male is just as protected as anybody else.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex apply to discrimination against men as well as to discrimination against women.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race apply to white people as well as to black people.

Laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion apply to Christians as well as to Muslims and Wiccans.

if it were illegal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, that would apply to heterosexuals as well as to homosexuals.

You, as a heterosexual white Christian male, don't value those protections because you have never needed them. Discrimination has always been in your favor. When we stop discriminating against other groups, you're quite right to feel a sense of loss, but it's not the loss that comes with wanton discrimination. It's the loss that comes with no longer belonging to a class whose privileges are enshrined in law.

You aren't discriminated against for being a heterosexual white Christian male. It's just that when there is equality under the laws there is no longer any special privilege associated with being a heterosexual white Christian male, and you have trouble dealing with your loss of special privilege.

All your life, you've been allowed to shoot from the ladies' tee while the rest of us had to shoot from somewhere out on the highway. Now you're being asked to shoot from the regular tee, and being told that the rest of us can shoot from the regular tee, too, and you experience that as discrimination because you have never experienced what is it not to have special privilege.

That's the sad thing about the heterosexual white Christian male. He has no experience whatsoever of being marginalized in his own society, but manages to feel bitterly persecuted if he is not allowed to assert his dominance over every other member of society.

Wrong, oh so wrong. You know nothing about me from where I come or what I have been through, I have been discriminated against and took it as far as the EEOC and I was told NOTHING COULD BE DONE! I could be called ******, I had to put up with so much crap it ain't funny. So don't presume anything!

 

[rageoftyrael]

i see the part about not having protected status. i just think you guys are just adding the whole "yay, we get to kick some people around" part. i think he makes a valid point, even if i don't agree with it.

 

[Smoke]

Wrong, oh so wrong. You know nothing about me from where I come or what I have been through, I have been discriminated against and took it as far as the EEOC and I was told NOTHING COULD BE DONE! I could be called ******, I had to put up with so much crap it ain't funny. So don't presume anything!

Well, then, tell us about it. I don't deny the possibility. Certainly women, non-white people, non-Christians, and LGBT people still experience discrimination regardless of the laws, and it's possible that you might have been discriminated against for being white or male or Christian or heterosexual. It's just a lot less common.

 

[Smoke]

i see the part about not having protected status. i just think you guys are just adding the whole "yay, we get to kick some people around" part. i think he makes a valid point, even if i don't agree with it.

It's not a question of saying, "Yay, we get to kick some people around." Men have had advantages women haven't had. White people have had advantages non-white people haven't had. Christians have had advantages non-Christians haven't had. Straight people have had advantages gay people haven't had, and cissexuals have had advantages transsexuals haven't had.

The heterosexual white Christian male experiences a level of privilege in this country that is unknown, for instance, to the gay white Christian male or the heterosexual black Christian male -- much less to the gay black Muslim female.

The heterosexual white Christian male isn't being oppressed. He's just beginning to lose his position of privilege, and he experiences that as oppression, because he's never known anything else.

I come from a hillbilly family, and I can tell you that the poor whites of Appalachia are as oppressed as just about any group. Economic oppression is a very real thing, and it's experienced by the heterosexual white Christian, male or female, as much as by anybody else. However, the poor heterosexual white Christians of Appalachia are co-conspirators in their own oppression. They make common cause with their oppressors precisely in an attempt to preserve the privileges of the white Christian heterosexual, heedless of the price they pay for those privileges -- and it doesn't happen only in Appalachia, either.

 

[Archer]

Number one I am not white by birth only by default!

I have been called N*g*er by balck people on the job before went to personnel and was told so what you are not black so don't worry about it! Hello why can I say it without getting fired?

HR got it out around the plant and that is when it got really wired. Being the only non black in the area I was hounded. I put up with a lot of s*it including being told that my wife was going to have a black baby, and three days after the loss of one of my children I was told all about how white folk have it made.

I was told by EEOC that I did not have a case and confidentially that a non protected individual has a higher burden of proof that need be presented to get the ball rolling than a protected individual.

Noe let us put this in perspective. If I had been Gay and held protected status I would have had a case and justice would have been served! I am not saying that anyone should be descriminated against I am saying that the rights of all need be protected equally! Do away with protected status.

As I said it is not only the marriage issue! There is a lot more to it.

Personally outside of the Church I really don't care about the marriage aspect only, what I do care about is everything else that can go alone with it.