Religion and Socialism

[1213]

is religion a socialist type organization and if so, why would a religious person be against socialism but utilizing social programs; such as....police, fire, military and education programs?

I don't think Christianity is a socialist type organization, because it has a king, Jesus. And if people live by what Jesus said, things like police should not be necessary, for example because:

Therefore it is already altogether a defect in you, that you have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? No, but you yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that against your brothers.
1 Cor. 6:7-8

Also, in Christianity people are allowed to own things, which makes it different than socialism.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira, his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While you kept it, didn’t it remain your own? After it was sold, wasn’t it in your power? How is it that you have conceived this thing in your heart? You haven’t lied to men, but to God.”
Acts. 5:1-4

 

[Kenny]

Personally I have no problem with capitalism as long as it's practiced ethically. I just don't believe that some things should be privatized and for profit, like healthcare. Here in the U.S. it's a predatory racket that drives people into debt.

I agree...

I wonder if we have created our own monster in as much as both types seem to be faulty. My wife and just now started using Medicare. We had our blood work and urine analysis done once a year just to see if there are signs of something that needs to be taken care of. (We also use it for holistic purposes).

Socialized medicine (which has benefits) said, "No, unless you have a problem you cannot order a blood test or a urine analysis.

I wondered, "Isn't it better to be preemptive and jump over the health hole that to fall into it and then pull yourself out?"

Though necessary, it still has room for improvement IMO

 

[Kenny]

This is what America has. The degree of heart is what the political parties discuss. Oddly it is the Christian conservatives who express views with vastly less heart. They certainly ignore what jesus said on the mount.

Again, as I said before, why "Christian" conservatives when there are atheists conservative, LGBT conservatives et al?

I think your statement is more judgmental than actually true.

 

[idea]

1. There are options like a republic. It’s not socialism or anarchy.


2. Religions have different methods for leadership. Some are pretty democratic. Some get mega rich pastors. Some don’t.


3. With few exceptions religion can’t be forced on people if you don’t like pastor A you don’t have to follow him or give him money. You can take pastor B C or none at all. When it’s the government they jail you or shot you if you don’t comply.

The non-denominational groups seem sincere, it's the dogmatic name brand sects who claim to have monopoly on *false* authority that turn my stomach.

Religious groups don't provide enough charity, seems we do need to be shot to force us to take care of one another. The best welfare has always been provided through government, not religious groups.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Im all for learning. I study people, history and political theory.


Socialism never ends well for the people. (See Venezuela for a recent example).


Freedom, hard work, strong ethics etc are vital.

So whatever the other developed nations call themselves, we should do that, and I think that is what most people want.

 

[F1fan]

I don't think Christianity is a socialist type organization, because it has a king, Jesus. And if people live by what Jesus said, things like police should not be necessary, for example because:

Therefore it is already altogether a defect in you, that you have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? No, but you yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that against your brothers.
1 Cor. 6:7-8

First, Jesus is an absent king (note Christians are waiting for a second coming) and the Christian leadership over the millennia have not followed Jesus very well, quite the contrary. So Jesus is not policing his own religion and leadership.

Second, if leaders can't follow Jesus very well then why expect followers any better results? Obviously humans are flawed beings and are prone to negative, selfish, and immoral behaviors. Religion hasn't been enough to manage this. So politics works as a way to manage more diversity and establish laws that apply to all. So the ideals you present just don;t work. Humans are not naturally virtuous, and they need more than religion to guide them to moral behavior.

Also, in Christianity people are allowed to own things, which makes it different than socialism.

You are referring to communism, not socialism. Even in communism people were allowed to own things, so not an accurate statement on your part.

 

[F1fan]

I agree...

I wonder if we have created our own monster in as much as both types seem to be faulty. My wife and just now started using Medicare. We had our blood work and urine analysis done once a year just to see if there are signs of something that needs to be taken care of. (We also use it for holistic purposes).

Socialized medicine (which has benefits) said, "No, unless you have a problem you cannot order a blood test or a urine analysis.

Where did this happen? I ask since the USA doesn't have socialized medicine, so where and when was this that happened to you?

I wondered, "Isn't it better to be preemptive and jump over the health hole that to fall into it and then pull yourself out?"

Though necessary, it still has room for improvement IMO

Thank God you have a socialist program like Medicare to help make this happen. Imagine the poor who don't make enough money to afford insurance, especially older poor folks who have fewer options in a very competitve economy.

Again, as I said before, why "Christian" conservatives when there are atheists conservative, LGBT conservatives et al?

I think your statement is more judgmental than actually true.

My comment was both judgmental and true. My criticism has two parts: 1. that Christianity as a religion does not have a consistent, moral message that pressures believers to a consistent moral behavior, and 2. that conservatives have evolved into an extremist group that not only avoids helping the needy and global concerns, but they are actively hostile to them. Republicans are hostile to women's reproductive rights, to helping the poor, to healthcare access, to helping immigrants resolve their desire for a better life, to denying climate change, to denying voting access, to over-reliance on far right Christian beliefs as we see on the Supreme Court and republican politicans.

Christian conservatism is an utter moral failure that not only doesn't hel solve problems humans face, but it is making life worse. Fortunately republicans who have been exploiting extreme Christian ideas, like banning abortion, book banning, denying racism (because Baptists were very much slave owners in the Confederate South), etc. are seeing a backlash in many places as we approach the midterm elections. Americans want freedom and liberty, not forced to live under Christian extremism.

 

[Father Heathen]

Again, as I said before, why "Christian" conservatives when there are atheists conservative, LGBT conservatives et al?

I think your statement is more judgmental than actually true.

The vast majority of them identify as Christians, and even those that don't for some strange reason still align themselves with evangelicals who push a theocratic agenda.

 

[Truth in love]

How is the core of socialism greed when it's about providing enough for everyone's needs? Especially when contrasted to capitalism, which has given us megacorporations who view people themselves as merely means for accumulating greater capital, and has created our consumerist culture.

How many people have died from preventable disease, starvation, and exposure in capitalist countries? You think it's lazy and greedy to want to save those people?

I'm not a Marxist, and I certainly think the USSR and Maoist China were horrific, but I don't think that's the same as socialism being "rotten filled with greed, laziness, etc."

If you wanted to criticize socialism, maybe you could criticize it for often manifesting as severe collectivism, to the point of censoring free speech, torturing political dissidents, and committing democides, but definitely not for being "greedy." I'd also argue that these are more issues with Communism than socialism.

Your are ascribing problems to capitalism that can be there, but that are not required. Capitalism had done a far better job of putting food and medicine on the table than socialism.

In capitalism I work to better my situation and I choose to help others. In Socialism the choice is removed. No matter how much work or don’t I remain poor. This discourages work at best.

Communism and Socialism are the same core system. Just one has a nice paint job and pretends to not be the other.
The recurring drum beat of Socialism in the US, Venezuela and many other nations is to project greed onto the rush person and claim that they need to be blame for others being poor. It’s greed in the harts of many that they are not satisfied with what they can work for and want a government monster to destroy the person doing better.

 

[Truth in love]

There is such a thing as "market socialism." Socialism and free markets aren't mutually exclusive.

It’s a short lived thing. Free market values and socialism can’t stand each other.

 

[Truth in love]

I assume you also believe that alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine should be banned as well? Or fastfood and sweets for that matter?

No, I want a system of freedom where I’m not FORCED to pay for your bad choices.

We can’t build a good system by promoting more and more dependency.

 

[Truth in love]

Were the Nazis Socialists?

Very. They had many socialist ideals in their platform. Not all we’re fully implemented, but that was their drive.

The rhetoric on the Jews being bad for amassing wealth, the retirement schemes, centralization of charities, control of the economy etc. all socialist items.

They had a few national ideas that most socialist don’t care for; but that does not remove what was there.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.
11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municipal orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

Nazi Party Platform

 

[Father Heathen]

No, I want a system of freedom where I’m not FORCED to pay for your bad choices.

We can’t build a good system by promoting more and more dependency.

Alcohol and tobacco are far more addictive and have has caused far more health issues and death than cannabis. So wanting to ban the latter yet neither of the former is inconsistent and hypocritical. Also, fast food and sweets cause a lot of health problems as well. Why the double standard? Regardless, you can't pretend to value liberty.

 

[Truth in love]

The non-denominational groups seem sincere, it's the dogmatic name brand sects who claim to have monopoly on *false* authority that turn my stomach.

Religious groups don't provide enough charity, seems we do need to be shot to force us to take care of one another. The best welfare has always been provided through government, not religious groups.

I reject those conclusions.
I worked for years in my Churches charity systems. As a social worker I’ve also been a part of the government systems.
The government has deep pockets, but it’s systems are very inefficient and tend to promote long term dependence.

The church system helps people quickly. Is not bogged down in complex paper work and tries to help people rise above their situation.
Help with rent, food, medical care, transportation, job skills, mental health etc etc etc

I would add that I have observed a lot more love and acceptance between giver and receiver in the church system vs government.

 

[Father Heathen]

Very. They had many socialist ideals in their platform. Not all we’re fully implemented, but that was their drive.

The rhetoric on the Jews being bad for amassing wealth, the retirement schemes, centralization of charities, control of the economy etc. all socialist items.

They had a few national ideas that most socialist don’t care for; but that does not remove what was there.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.
11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municipal orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

Nazi Party Platform

I take it you didn't even click the link. The nazis were clearly rightwing totalitarian fascists. Trying to draw a parallel with liberal platforms is an embarrassing straw man.

 

[Truth in love]

Alcohol and tobacco are far more addictive and have has caused far more health issues and death than cannabis. So wanting to ban the latter yet neither of the former is inconsistent and hypocritical. Also, fast food and sweets cause a lot of health problems as well. Why the double standard? Regardless, you can't pretend to value liberty.

You should really read what I said. I want them all legal once the system does not force me to pay for your use. In many state Marijuana use is still illegal.

my not wanting to make a situation worse is not the same and wanting to ban something.

 

[Truth in love]

So whatever the other developed nations call themselves, we should do that, and I think that is what most people want.

So like bans on free speech in Europe and Canada.

massive lock downs in Australia.

A few months back some states decided to have abortion restrictions almost as restrictive as Europe and people lost their minds.

Do you want tax rates in the 50-70% range?
maybe start the ever popular if you have gray hair we cannot offer CPR to you because we think you would rather be dead?
Euthanasia for the old and disabled?

 

[Truth in love]

I take it you didn't even click the link. The nazis were clearly rightwing totalitarian fascists. Trying to draw a parallel with liberal platforms is an embarrassing straw man.

I’m saying what they were. Efforts to link them to the political right in the US is the straw man.

 

[Father Heathen]

I’m saying what they were. Efforts to link them to the political right in the US is the straw man.

Comparing the right in the U.S. to nazis is melodramatic hyperbole, although racist and fascist sentiments aren't uncommon among conservatives. For example, the Unite the Right and Jan 6 rallies.

 

[Truth in love]

Comparing the right in the U.S. to nazis is melodramatic hyperbole, although racist and fascist sentiments aren't uncommon among conservatives. For example, the Unite the Right and Jan 6 rallies.

Good gravy. Yes there is the odd nut job, but the overwhelming majority are not racist, they just reject absurd give control and the left likes to insult.
Big difference.