Religion is fundamentally divisive. That's not helping!

[Valjean]

Tribalism is natural, so it gets imposed upon religion. That is a far cry from showing religion as the cause of tribalism.

Agreed.

So if it weren't for religion we'd all be united?

No, we'd still be tribal.

 

[Valjean]

Do you have a problem with me?

I find it frustrating when you continually dodge questions, enter into discussions but won't explain yourself, and post opinions you don't even attempt to explain or defend.

I’ve talked in length about my why I believe what I believe.

Link?

How about why you believe. We'd like to see your reasoning -- but you've made it clear that you don't reason, you just feel.

 

[Augustus]

Our short-sightedness and tribalism has likely doomed us.

Humans are tribal by nature, that’s why saying “X is divisive” without explaining what is less divisive is pretty meaningless.

Religions are divisive as evolved human cognition divides the world into groups.

 

[Jimmy]

I find it frustrating when you continually dodge questions, enter into discussions but won't explain yourself, and post opinions you don't even attempt to explain or defend.

Most people on here know why I believe what I believe so I don’t have to write out why I believe it every time I state that belief. If that bothers you keep it to yourself.

 

[Koldo]

That’s not how human group psychology seems to work. Environmental protection is just one part of a political ideology and political ideologies are divisive.

So to say religion is divisive, doesn’t make much sense unless there are alternatives than are less divisive.

Unfortunately, there don’t seem to be many.

(Religion is probably the most unifying force in human history, other than perhaps national identity)

Growing up in a country that is vastly Christian, the concept of Christianity, as an umbrella term to group up all the different denominations, was completely alien to me.

What I am saying is that even though there was massive potential for unification, people still didn't see each other as being part of the same group/religion.

 

[Valjean]

Most people on here know why I believe what I believe so I don’t have to write out why I believe it every time I state that belief. If that bothers you keep it to yourself.

Yes, you made it quite clear that your beliefs are based on your feelings, not on facts. You stated it bluntly.

We all have feelings. Feelings aren't interesting. We can all post our feelings, but it would be a pretty dull discussion board if the facts and reasoning behind our opinions weren't posted, as well. We'd have a discussion forum with nothing to discuss.

 

[Valjean]

Tribalism is natural, so it gets imposed upon religion. That is a far cry from showing religion as the cause of tribalism.

Agreed

So if it weren't for religion we'd all be united?

Where'd you get that?

We're naturally tribal. Tribal cohesion got us through the ice age.
We crave tribes. We'll always find something to unite us, but usually in sub-Dunbar numbers. World unity and long-term planning are beyond our natural inclinations, and possibly our abilities.

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, you made it quite clear that your beliefs are based on your feelings, not on facts. You stated it bluntly.

We all have feelings. Feelings aren't interesting. We can all post our feelings, but it would be a pretty dull discussion board if the facts and reasoning behind our opinions weren't posted, as well. We'd have a discussion forum with nothing to discuss.

Feelings and intuition are important in my life. I’ve also gave reasons for my beliefs that are thought based. Maybe you missed them. That’s not my problem. As I just stated I don’t need to post all those things every time I state my belief. If that bothers you keep it to yourself.

 

[Augustus]

Growing up in a country that is vastly Christian, the concept of Christianity, as an umbrella term to group up all the different denominations, was completely alien to me.

What I am saying is that even though there was massive potential for unification, people still didn't see each other as being part of the same group/religion.

Large countries being vastly Christian does show you it has some ability to unify.

Nothing really unites us particularly well at a mass scale though, except opposition to the same thing.

We are defined as much by what we think we are not as much as we are defined by that which we think we are.

 

[Koldo]

Large countries being vastly Christian does show you it has some ability to unify.

I wonder how exactly you have reached this conclusion.

Nothing really unites us particularly well at a mass scale though, except opposition to the same thing.

We are defined as much by what we think we are not as much as we are defined by that which we think we are.

I agree with you on that. This is exactly how some politicians get elected.

 

[icehorse]

Protecting the environment is by definition political and involves many political factors.

There’s no way around that.

Hmmm, you're gonna have to connect some dots for me in that point; I'm not seeing how the environment is - by definition - a political topic?

 

[icehorse]

Still no one ever seems to be able to present something that is more unifying as an alternative.

How about undoing wealth and income inequality?

 

[icehorse]

Humans are tribal by nature, that’s why saying “X is divisive” without explaining what is less divisive is pretty meaningless.

Religions are divisive as evolved human cognition divides the world into groups.

The golden rule is less divisive than the "us vs. them" worldview that most religions offer up.

 

[icehorse]

Most people on here know why I believe what I believe so I don’t have to write out why I believe it every time I state that belief. If that bothers you keep it to yourself.

I don't know what or why you believe

And notice I've summarized my stance in my tagline and I summarized it earlier in this thread.

 

[Augustus]

Hmmm, you're gonna have to connect some dots for me in that point; I'm not seeing how the environment is - by definition - a political topic?

How to protect the environment is as it is inseparable from the economy, taxes, personal freedoms, etc.

How about undoing wealth and income inequality?

By what means?

Communism? Socialism? Social Democracy? Islamism?

The golden rule is less divisive than the "us vs. them" worldview that most religions offer up.

The GR is an ethical principle, it is not an ideology/worldview/identity/etc.

Human societies require us to identify with our fellow citizens and see them as 'one of us'.

Strong sense of identity = greater social trust, willingness to sacrifice individual interest for common good, etc.

The human brain is what offers up an "us v them" view of the world, religions/ideologies/etc. are a symptom of this, not the cause

 

[Augustus]

I wonder how exactly you have reached this conclusion.

By looking at the historical processes of how humans were able to form ever larger groups.

We started off in small groups like other social primates, larger societies require bonds of fictive kinship and religion is one of the most significant ways we have created this.

 

[Jimmy]

I don't know what or why you believe

And notice I've summarized my stance in my tagline and I summarized it earlier in this thread.

When you think my beliefs are magical thinking why would I want to share more? No thanks.

 

[icehorse]

How to protect the environment is as it is inseparable from the economy, taxes, personal freedoms, etc.

Well from a systems thinking perspective you could say that about anything, so that seems like a sort of lame, get-out-of-jail-free debating ploy, no?

By what means?

Communism? Socialism? Social Democracy? Islamism?

You asked for another example of a potentially unifying topic. Getting into a separate discussion about economic systems is a topic for a different thread.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

I'll say a prayer tonight for inclusivity and critical thinking.

 

[icehorse]

When you think my beliefs are magical thinking why would I want to share more? No thanks.

I've shared with you one of my core beliefs that could be categorized as "magical thinking". We all do some magical thinking, sometimes, you just seem to be - I don't know - embarrassed by yours?