Religion is passe,

[Storm]

I havent read the whole book yet but as far as read it seems to me that with these experiments they are trying to prove that people use their brains in a different way ( lets say intensity of radioactive scattering from different regions varies between meditators and non medidators,,) which proves that meditation is different than average concentrating or average thinking ,,,

Well, that comes as no surprise, now does it?

As I recall, this tangent started when you asked how I know that my experiences of God aren't hallucination. This is how: the neurological activity is completely different.

Now, again, that doesn't prove that my interpretation (communion with God) is correct, and I'm not trying to say that it does. But it does show that it's not a hallucination.

 

[mho123]

Well, that comes as no surprise, now does it?

As I recall, this tangent started when you asked how I know that my experiences of God aren't hallucination. This is how: the neurological activity is completely different.

Now, again, that doesn't prove that my interpretation (communion with God) is correct, and I'm not trying to say that it does. But it does show that it's not a hallucination.

we have to get our facts right ,,
Science gives us the facts ,, as they are ,, nothing less nothing more,,
What these guys are doing is basically they are giving someone radioactively marked injections ,, and scan there brains while they are meditating ,, and say that people in meditation have different active areas then others
I am all fine with that ,,, those are the facts assuming they have done the experiment correctly and they really got statistically important (read meaningfull ) results,,
The rest is their own input ,,, to say that it has to do with something divine ,, or creation etc etc ,, where did they come from ,,
experiment proves that meditators use their brain differently during meditation ,, so ??? isnt that to be expected ???? i mean take a few glasses of vodka and do test ,, you will get yet another different reading ,,,
to take the facts as they are and manipulate it to defend your case is typical of brainwashed people ,,
and the worst thing is these are the religious people who have been against science from the beginning ,,, and now they are using (abusing )science to prove religion ????
let me give you another example to explain ,,,

lets say i am going to do research about the most dangerous animal on earth ,,, i go throuigh statistics,, death through lion attacks ,, 100 a year ,, through snake bityes 1000 a year ,, through mosquito bites 3 million( !!!!!! 3 million people die in poor countries just because they dont have a mosquito net ,, helaas the truth )
so i publish my research ,, beware ,, danger ,, mosquitos are the most dangerous animals in the world ,,scientifically proven ,, is it proven ,, well numbers tell the story ,, yes i can publish my research and noone can p[rove otherwise ,,, panic ,,headline news,, scientists fouind that mosquitos are more deadly then liuons ,, everybody starts running to the supermarket buying mosquito repellants ,,
little they knew that being a scientist i also have a mosquito repellant factory ,, my business goes booming ,,,
SO is this science ???
Nope ,, thats abuse of science just to get my way ,,,
and that is what is happening here ,,, nothing to do with god or divine or anything ,,

 

[mho123]

Well, that comes as no surprise, now does it?

As I recall, this tangent started when you asked how I know that my experiences of God aren't hallucination. This is how: the neurological activity is completely different.

Now, again, that doesn't prove that my interpretation (communion with God) is correct, and I'm not trying to say that it does. But it does show that it's not a hallucination.

about your experience ,, i dont know ,, i wasnt there ,, but doesnt have to be a hallucination ,, maybe you really saw god ,,seriously ,, maybe you did ,, AGAIN I DONT KNOW ,, i am not saying you didnt ,, i wasnt there ,, but about the experiment ,,, nope ,, bad science ,, veeryy bad science,, these people shoudlnt even call themnselves scientists but guru s or monks,,, shame on them ,, who use science to earn their bread and abuse it to support religion

 

[mho123]

about your experience ,, i dont know ,, i wasnt there ,, but doesnt have to be a hallucination ,, maybe you really saw god ,,seriously ,, maybe you did ,, AGAIN I DONT KNOW ,, i am not saying you didnt ,, i wasnt there ,, but about the experiment ,,, nope ,, bad science ,, veeryy bad science,, these people shoudlnt even call themnselves scientists but guru s or monks,,, shame on them ,, who use science to earn their bread and abuse it to support religion

Btw ,, i wish ,, i sincerely wish i was a believer ,, life would be sooo much easier ,, but cant lie to myself ,, cant pretend to stick my head in the sand while facts are staring me in the face,,

 

[Storm]

we have to get our facts right ,,
Science gives us the facts ,, as they are ,, nothing less nothing more,,
What these guys are doing is basically they are giving someone radioactively marked injections ,, and scan there brains while they are meditating ,, and say that people in meditation have different active areas then others
I am all fine with that ,,, those are the facts assuming they have done the experiment correctly and they really got statistically important (read meaningfull ) results,,

With you so far.

The rest is their own input ,,, to say that it has to do with something divine ,, or creation etc etc ,, where did they come from ,,

They're not saying that, and neither am I. I answered the very specific question of how I know my experiences weren't hallucinations.

Don't put words in my mouth.

experiment proves that meditators use their brain differently during meditation ,, so ??? isnt that to be expected ???? i mean take a few glasses of vodka and do test ,, you will get yet another different reading ,,,

I just said it was to be expected.

to take the facts as they are and manipulate it to defend your case is typical of brainwashed people ,,

I am no more "manipulating" facts than I am "brainwashed."

You're the one blindly railing against my simple information because you have an axe to grind.

and the worst thing is these are the religious people who have been against science from the beginning ,,, and now they are using (abusing )science to prove religion ????

I have never been against science, and I have repeatedly said none of this information proves religion.

little they knew that being a scientist i also have a mosquito repellant factory ,, my business goes booming ,,,
SO is this science ???
Nope ,, thats abuse of science just to get my way ,,,

Wrong. Facts are facts. If the data is accurate, it's science.

and that is what is happening here ,,, nothing to do with god or divine or anything ,,

Your bias is showing.

 

[mho123]

btw still couldnt change the titel ,, do you know how ,,
i think it feels a bit offensive to some people ,, help anyone ,,?

 

[Storm]

Btw ,, i wish ,, i sincerely wish i was a believer ,, life would be sooo much easier ,, but cant lie to myself ,, cant pretend to stick my head in the sand while facts are staring me in the face,,

Well, I can't do that, either. Which is what I'd have to be to be an atheist.

 

[mho123]

With you so far.


They're not saying that, and neither am I. I answered the very specific question of how I know my experiences weren't hallucinations.

Don't put words in my mouth.


I just said it was to be expected.


I am no more "manipulating" facts than I am "brainwashed."

You're the one blindly railing against my simple information because you have an axe to grind.


I have never been against science, and I have repeatedly said none of this information proves religion.


Wrong. Facts are facts. If the data is accurate, it's science.


Your bias is showing.

i am not talking about you ,, but the socvalled scientists who are doing so called research ,, who claim that this has something to do with divine
not about you ,, just about the book

 

[Storm]

btw still couldnt change the titel ,, do you know how ,,
i think it feels a bit offensive to some people ,, help anyone ,,?

You can't. I can, as a mod, but I'm not sure it's a good idea at this point, as the thread's fairly well established and it might confuse people.

 

[Storm]

i am not talking about you ,, but the socvalled scientists who are doing so called research ,, who claim that this has something to do with divine
not about you ,, just about the book

And what reason do you have to suspect their motives?

It seems to me that you're just ****** off that their data doesn't confirm your pre-conceived notions.

 

[mho123]

You can't. I can, as a mod, but I'm not sure it's a good idea at this point, as the thread's fairly well established and it might confuse people.

I think you misunderstood ,, i am referring the experiment ,, the so called face of god book ,, that is wrong ,, that is manipulation of the facts ,,

 

[Storm]

I think you misunderstood ,, i am referring the experiment ,, the so called face of god book ,, that is wrong ,, that is manipulation of the facts ,,

1) What "face of God" book? Neither of the ones I recommended had that in the title.

2) Have you even read the damn things yet? Somehow, I doubt that in the 3 hours since I posted, you've gone to the library, checked them out, and made an informed opinion.

 

[mho123]

And what reason do you have to suspect their motives?

It seems to me that you're just ****** off that their data doesn't confirm your pre-conceived notions.

How do you mean did you read the book ?
We scan the brains of meditating people prove that their brains are working differently and thus there is god ,, isnt that what it is all about ,, i mean ,, cant even comment on that ,,, how do they draw the conclusion from a brain scan to existence of god ,, ??? where is the proof ,,, the proof about the brain activity of a meditating person yes ,, proof about divine ,, no absolutely not ,, how ???

 

[mho123]

How do you mean did you read the book ?
We scan the brains of meditating people prove that their brains are working differently and thus there is god ,, isnt that what it is all about ,, i mean ,, cant even comment on that ,,, how do they draw the conclusion from a brain scan to existence of god ,, ??? where is the proof ,,, the proof about the brain activity of a meditating person yes ,, proof about divine ,, no absolutely not ,, how ???

I am not against the data they give ,, i agree ,, and it is totally expected to say that meditating people have different brain scans then others ,,, thats it and thats all ,, these are the facts ,, the rest is their interpretation ( so called ) that this has to do with something divine ??? excuse me ,,, anyone having a brain tumor would have thousands times more increased blood flow ,, aaah yeaah tumor proves that god exists??? what kind of logic ,, ?? dont get it at all

 

[mho123]

1) What "face of God" book? Neither of the ones I recommended had that in the title.

2) Have you even read the damn things yet? Somehow, I doubt that in the 3 hours since I posted, you've gone to the library, checked them out, and made an informed opinion.

A quote on the cover ,,,
" A wonderfull assestment of the brain and its activity when god is experienced. This should be fascinating to all who are interested in relationship betwweeen god and humans " ,, and thats just the cover,, or are we talking about different books

 

[Storm]

Regarding the phrase "so-called scientists:"

Andrew Newberg, M.D. is an Associate Professor of Radiology and Psychiatry in the School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. He has been a prominent researcher in the field of nuclear medicine brain imaging. In particular, his research has focused on the development of neurotransmitter tracers for the evaluation of religiosity as well as neurological and psychiatric disorders including clinical depression, head injury, Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's disease. He was born in 1966
In the early 1990s, he began to research the intersection between the brain and religious and spiritual experiences. In this work, also sometimes referred to as “neurotheology”, Newberg described the possible neurophysiological mechanisms associated with religious and spiritual experiences.[1] His initial research included the use of functional brain imaging to study Buddhist meditators[2] and Franciscan nuns in prayer[3]. This work was eventually published in three books, The Mystical Mind, Why God Won’t Go Away, and Why We Believe What We Believe.
Newberg's research has been featured in Newsweek, the Los Angeles Times, and the New Scientist. He has been a guest speaker at the Forum at Grace Cathedral[4] and appeared in the films What the Bleep Do We Know!? and Religulous. He has continued to study religious and spiritual phenomena including topics related to forgiveness, meditation, prayer, spiritual development, morality, and belief. This work has been incorporated more recently into a new Center for Spirituality and the Mind at the University of Pennsylvania.
source

EUGENE D'AQUILI was the founder of Biogenetic Structuralism, a way of studying the neurophysiology underlying human behaviour. D'Aquili advanced far beyond the obvious truism that parts of the brain are committed to characteristic behaviours. Concentrating on religious behaviours, he and his colleagues mapped the ways in which different parts of the brain are involved in ritual and religious experiencing.


The use of EEGs (electroencephalograms) is now a commonplace, but d'Aquili and his colleagues used, over the last two years, brain scans on Buddhist monks in meditation. His intention was to compare the results with Carmelites in meditation in order to establish which parts of the brain are committed to particular tasks. On the basis of brain research, d'Aquili proposed far-reaching explanations of the ways in which ecstatic unitary states and theistic beliefs arise and take their characteristic forms.
source

Mario Beauregard's groundbreaking work on the neurobiology of mystical experience at the University of Montreal has received international media coverage. Before becoming a faculty member there, he conducted postdoctoral research at the University of Texas and the Montreal Neurological Institute (McGill University). Because of his research into the neuro-science of consciousness, he was selected by the World Media Net to be among the "One Hundred Pioneers of the 21st Century."
source

Who are you to dispariage these fine professionals' credentials? Did you even bother to look them up before belittling their qualifications?

 

[mho123]

1) What "face of God" book? Neither of the ones I recommended had that in the title.

2) Have you even read the damn things yet? Somehow, I doubt that in the 3 hours since I posted, you've gone to the library, checked them out, and made an informed opinion.

I am reading it as we type ,,
even on the cover of the book says " GOD " three times,,

 

[Storm]

How do you mean did you read the book ?
We scan the brains of meditating people prove that their brains are working differently and thus there is god ,, isnt that what it is all about ,, i mean ,, cant even comment on that ,,, how do they draw the conclusion from a brain scan to existence of god ,, ??? where is the proof ,,, the proof about the brain activity of a meditating person yes ,, proof about divine ,, no absolutely not ,, how ???

No, that's not what it's all about.

It's about figuring out how a certain phenomena works.

I am not against the data they give ,, i agree ,, and it is totally expected to say that meditating people have different brain scans then others ,,, thats it and thats all ,, these are the facts ,, the rest is their interpretation ( so called ) that this has to do with something divine ??? excuse me ,,, anyone having a brain tumor would have thousands times more increased blood flow ,, aaah yeaah tumor proves that god exists??? what kind of logic ,, ?? dont get it at all

Nothing proves God exists, as I've said time and again.

A quote on the cover ,,,
" A wonderfull assestment of the brain and its activity when god is experienced. This should be fascinating to all who are interested in relationship betwweeen god and humans " ,, and thats just the cover,, or are we talking about different books

So, you're throwing a hissy fit over some blurb on the cover? THAT'S the basis of your ciriticism?

Read the damn book and stop burning strawmen.

 

[logician]

Is it true that religion is passe and that we should stop believing in god ?

Already done it.

 

[mho123]

Regarding the phrase "so-called scientists:"

Andrew Newberg, M.D. is an Associate Professor of Radiology and Psychiatry in the School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. He has been a prominent researcher in the field of nuclear medicine brain imaging. In particular, his research has focused on the development of neurotransmitter tracers for the evaluation of religiosity as well as neurological and psychiatric disorders including clinical depression, head injury, Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's disease. He was born in 1966
In the early 1990s, he began to research the intersection between the brain and religious and spiritual experiences. In this work, also sometimes referred to as “neurotheology”, Newberg described the possible neurophysiological mechanisms associated with religious and spiritual experiences.[1] His initial research included the use of functional brain imaging to study Buddhist meditators[2] and Franciscan nuns in prayer[3]. This work was eventually published in three books, The Mystical Mind, Why God Won’t Go Away, and Why We Believe What We Believe.
Newberg's research has been featured in Newsweek, the Los Angeles Times, and the New Scientist. He has been a guest speaker at the Forum at Grace Cathedral[4] and appeared in the films What the Bleep Do We Know!? and Religulous. He has continued to study religious and spiritual phenomena including topics related to forgiveness, meditation, prayer, spiritual development, morality, and belief. This work has been incorporated more recently into a new Center for Spirituality and the Mind at the University of Pennsylvania.
source

EUGENE D'AQUILI was the founder of Biogenetic Structuralism, a way of studying the neurophysiology underlying human behaviour. D'Aquili advanced far beyond the obvious truism that parts of the brain are committed to characteristic behaviours. Concentrating on religious behaviours, he and his colleagues mapped the ways in which different parts of the brain are involved in ritual and religious experiencing.


The use of EEGs (electroencephalograms) is now a commonplace, but d'Aquili and his colleagues used, over the last two years, brain scans on Buddhist monks in meditation. His intention was to compare the results with Carmelites in meditation in order to establish which parts of the brain are committed to particular tasks. On the basis of brain research, d'Aquili proposed far-reaching explanations of the ways in which ecstatic unitary states and theistic beliefs arise and take their characteristic forms.
source

Mario Beauregard's groundbreaking work on the neurobiology of mystical experience at the University of Montreal has received international media coverage. Before becoming a faculty member there, he conducted postdoctoral research at the University of Texas and the Montreal Neurological Institute (McGill University). Because of his research into the neuro-science of consciousness, he was selected by the World Media Net to be among the "One Hundred Pioneers of the 21st Century."
source

Who are you to dispariage these fine professionals' credentials? Did you even bother to look them up before belittling their qualifications?

My friend ,, most of the wars in this world are fought because of religion ,, by countries goevrned by fine individuals ,,even finer individuals then these few profs,, world leaders,, and i am not just talking aboput a professor of a univerity ,, i am talking about the leader of a country ,, who are we to say they are wrong ,, let the religion continue ,, let the wars continue ,, ofcourse they are all right ,, they are such fine individuals, ..
comeoon ,, i have nothing against these researches ,, i have nothing against those profs ,, good for them ,, neurotransmitters workings of the brain ,, ofcourse totally agree ,, more research the better ,, but lets be honest ,, lets not mix facts and wishes together,, all of these fine individuals havent yet proven that god exists,, maybe they will one day ,, but you have to do much more than just brain scanning people and saying ahaaa their brain is different so god exists ,, thats is to me no scientist ,, thats a monk disguised as scientist ,, and thats my opinion ,,