Religion vs. Faith

[Brickjectivity]

Religion isnt a category or a title you lump one a group of people. The religion one has is their identity. How they wish to identify as a follower of Christ, of God of Abraham, of God of Zues is on them.



Yes. Religion is a practice of ones faith.

I have a faith: Trust in my ancestors
I have a religion: I venerate (verb) my ancestors and family
I have values: What Ive been taught and learned alone about myself, my family, friends, etc. How these apply to me. How it helps me to help others. And so forth.

I need the values (gas). I need the faith, the reason and trusr in those values.

AND

I need the religion: the application of those values based on my trust in them.

--

How do you have faith in something you dont practice?

(From cooking to riding a bike)



Many Catholics practice because of their faith in Christ.

Unlike some protestant churches, Catholicism puts emphasis on repetence, communion, private devotion, and prayer. All of these are action words.

If you dont have Faith (trust) why Do anything? It goes hand in hand.

Least thats my experience. I went in as an adult so I didnt juet mouth words I didnt know. They meant something. Holding hands in communion ans taking the sacraments, those actions meant something to me. They had confirmed my faith in god.

In general, its like youre saying actions/religion are not a part of faith. Maybe for yourself but not all of us see it that way nor define it as such.

So true. Lots of religions cannot be compared, and there are religions without belief in them. Some forms of Buddhism are like that. Interpretations of the Christian gospels vary widely, some emphasizing belief and others not at all. Hinduism is a very wide category that covers multiple religious groups who vary a great deal in how much they believe or are required to believe. No, I don't think that religions can be categorized strictly on what they 'Believe'. That would leave out too much detail and exclude some things from being religions at all when they are clearly religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

See to me you're not even discussing faith (trust), you're discussing religious practises as being faith...

Faith to me would be Catholics who go out in dangerous environments to help the needy, because they believe Yeshua and God are watching over them....That was what the Bible calls 'faith leading to works'.

Going to mass, doing holy communion, ceremonial prayer, confession, etc, are religious rituals, and don't necessarily have anything to do with trust/faith.

Plus if you understood what Yeshua was saying, you'd see what I'm questioning, is the exact same issue he had with the Pharisees, as is now being discussed about the Catholics.

Yeshua was saying about faith to go the extra mile, to learn more talents, to share everything we have, as God would provide; not some superficial religious practise to look good before others.

Trust doesn't need any religious practises, it is just a switch in our hearts....

Like some people will say it takes work to have trust in someone, and yet it doesn't, it is just a choice.

I practise skateboarding, even bought some drift skates lately, and tho they look sort of scary, I've got faith that it will all go OK without much practise.

Now if someone wrote a book, and said it is the ultimate guide for skateboarding, and without it, we've not got faith to skate, we'd say they were mad.

You just do it, if you want to have enlightenment, 'seek and you shall find', 'knock and the door shall open', that is faith.

I honestly dont feel you understand thr importance of practice in a religious setting and how that relates to faith/trust (which I mentioned posts back). If you understood how Jesus emphasis practice and the context it was related, hopefully youd look pas the gold walls and priests dress. Youd see Catholics are not Catholics by ritual but by their faith in Christ.

If you dont understand a christians faith in christ how would you understand how practice and ritual (if you like) is more than mouthing etc?

I cant make you understand the importance of practice as long as you attatch it to isolated rituals which you find have no meaning biblically.

I will come back and explain more. I dont know if your bias (good or bad) is blocking you from seeing it from another christians view.

 

[wizanda]

Lots of religions cannot be compared, and there are religions without belief in them.

The reference is the dictionaries definition of a religion, and all religions have a belief in them. It is a belief in Buddhism that the Dharma will bring Enlightenment, that the Buddha ever existed, etc.

A belief isn't only the context of believing in someone or something, as Christianity has ascribed; yet a concept or idea, that you have to accept based on the available evidence.

I don't think that religions can be categorized strictly on what they 'Believe'.

As far as i was aware every religion is defined by its beliefs, and then there are 42,000 denominations of Christianity, separated by their slightly different beliefs.

If you understood how Jesus emphasis practice and the context it was related

Know the text by heart; where did Yeshua say anything about religious practise?

Instead he was doing the opposite, criticizing the Pharisees over their religious practises, and saying it didn't lead to faith.

Youd see Catholics are not Catholics by ritual but by their faith in Christ.

My granddad was a devout Roman Catholic, he had never read the Bible, just followed all the ritual, and that was enough for him to be classed as a Catholic.

If you dont understand a christians faith in christ how would you understand how practice and ritual

Most don't have faith in Yeshua's teachings; they have faith in the Pharisaic religious practises that took place...

To be a Christian you must accept the death, and resurrection of jesus, as that means his atonement counts for your sins.

Not saying everyone doesn't follow him tho, some people get it, and thus don't spend time on practises, they're often to busy learning new talents, and helping people.... Same applies with Buddha's teachings.

I dont know if your bias (good or bad) is blocming you from seeing it from another christians view.

The bias I've got, is because of this same debate; Yeshua dismantled the religious aspects, and said that practises meant nothing in comparison to having faith....

So Christianity came along after, and reestablished the Pharisaic religious ritualism.

Yet that doesn't mean in the slightest I've not understood what you're on about; its just not what I'd call trust building, more like dogmatic justification.

Could also do the same with many of the religions, where the author instructed not to follow ritualism; as they recognized people want something to do, that gave them a sense of religious importance...

Yet later as the religion got priests, they've all slowly turned into religious ritualism, and away from having faith.

Religions don't automatically lead to faith; I've met more trusting people outside of religions, than I've ever met from within.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The reference is the dictionaries definition of a religion, and all religions have a belief in them. It is a belief in Buddhism that the Dharma will bring Enlightenment, that the Buddha ever existed, etc.

A belief isn't only the context of believing in someone or something, as Christianity has ascribed; yet a concept or idea, that you have to accept based on the available evidence.

Its perfectly OK for a Buddhist in many groups to think Buddha was made up by anyone, so long as they practice Buddhism.

Going to mass, doing holy communion, ceremonial prayer, confession, etc, are religious rituals, and don't necessarily have anything to do with trust/faith.

That is true, although sometimes they do have to do with belief particularly in modern times. I think in ancient times they were a commitment to the community.

As far as i was aware every religion is defined by its beliefs, and then there are 42,000 denominations of Christianity, separated by their slightly different beliefs.

There probably are, and they would say they are differentiated by their creeds. I think where I disagree with you when it comes to Jesus is that he is all about practice, whereas you keep insisting he is all about belief; so you uphold the (ridiculous) evangelical stance. While idiomatically it may appear that Jesus is using faith for belief, he is in fact using faith for faithfulness in almost every case. I feel you prefer to insist he is all about belief, because you have openly stated your aim of unifying all religions. It seems like you want to unify them even at the cost of misrepresenting them. I cannot agree with that. They are what they are, and they are not the same religion. Those 42,000 brands of Christianity to which you refer have one thing in common which is that they refuse to put up with one another, and so they have broken the #1 command of Jesus. They are actually supposed to consider themselves his disciples and to consider each other full partners and equals despite differences of opinion, but they don't always. That doesn't mean that I will ever agree with the evangelical position, which is a twisted modern and political disaster putting emphasis upon critiquing the beliefs of others. It changes the faithfulness required by Jesus into a hollow belief system where anything goes. (my opinion)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How can you compare the practices of the pharases with those a christian's devotion to god? Thats a complete insult.

Instead he was doing the opposite, criticizing the Pharisees over their religious practises, and saying it didn't lead to faith.

The religious practices of Catholicism is only meaningful and such if you have faith in Christ.

If not

You are practicing just like the pharasees.

If so

You are not like them.

Jesus did not tell christians they are saved by standing still
He also didnt say take communion by staring at each other
He didnt tell his apostles to spread the gospel by whispering from afar.

Youre looking at gold; I am not.

My granddad was a devout Roman Catholic, he had never read the Bible, just followed all the ritual, and that was enough for him to be classed as a Catholic.

Your grandfather just as people over 45 or so had different emphasis on rituals (some almost brutal) than we have to now. Christians are allowed to read their bibles in the states. There is no more separation. At least when I went in we DID read our Bibles. We did pray to Christ. We did a lot of things people in. 1950s or so on back did not or could not do.

That does not change how a christian's relationship with Christ is somehow smeared on because its through the Church. You are judging christian's individual relationship with Christ by your experiences, bias, and such.

No one knows the relationship with Christ but the christian and christ only.

Most don't have faith in Yeshua's teachings; they have faith in the Pharisaic religious practises that took pl

How do you know? You are basing a christian's heart on gold and politics and how you see rituals not based on experience but observation and judgement.

To be a Christian you must accept the death, and resurrection of jesus, as that means his atonement counts for your sins.

All christians do this. Only Christ says they dont.

Not saying everyone doesn't follow him tho, some people get it, and thus don't spend time on practises, they're often to busy learning new talents, and helping people.... Same applies with Buddha's teachi

You contradicted yourself. You put all Catholics in the same boat all because rituals (if you like) brought them to christ and let them accecpt christ death, (what you said quote before last).

Christians Do help people as per what jesus taught. Helping is a ritual just as lighting a candle.

The bias I've got, is because of this same debate; Yeshua dismantled the religious aspects, and said that practises meant nothing in comparison to having faith...

Not all christians see it that way. Many see practices intermingled with their faith. Helping others as christ helped them. Sharing in communion as so jesus with his disciples. All with the core being faith.

So Christianity came along after, and reestablished the Pharisaic religious ritualism.

Has nothing to do with a Catholic's relationship with christ. To compare the two is beyond words to say.

Yet that doesn't mean in the slightest I've not understood what you're on about; its just not what I'd call trust building, more like dogmatic justification.

You are looking at gold. Im looking at the christians relationship. You look at statues. I see a representation of Mary. You see candles. I see the light of the world. You see ritual. I see communion. You see bread and wine. I see jesus.

We see different things. As long as you feel christians have a relationship with bread and wine, how can you possible experience salvation by action?

Could also do the same with many of the religions, where the author instructed not to follow ritualism; as they recognized people want something to do, that gave them a sense of religious importance...

I pretty much touched on this. Without experience, you will always see gold

Yet later as the religion got priests, they've all slowly turned into religious ritualism, and away from having faith.

How do you know? You see politics. I see a christians heart expressed outwordly. You see priestly robes and mouthing. I see vocation and a call to help others come to christ.

We see different things.

Religions don't lead to faith; I've met nicer trusting hippies within trance parties, then I've ever met from within religions.

Religions/practice/community fosters faith.

How can you have faith standing still?

 

[wizanda]

I think where I disagree with you when it comes to Jesus is that he is all about practice, whereas you keep insisting he is all about belief

Yeshua was teaching faith is in action...Let your works, glorify our Father in Heaven.

Not in religious practises, to be seen before men.

I don't think it is about belief either, based on Yeshua's teachings in the synoptic gospels; yet Paul makes it into a religious belief.

Which is why saying Christianity; yet wasn't meaning Christ.

Sorry for any discombobulation caused.

openly stated your aim of unifying all religions.

All religions are One; it is just our understanding of God.

 

[wizanda]

How can you compare the practices of the pharases with those a christian's devotion to god? Thats a complete insult.

Firstly it isn't an insult, Rabbinic Orthodox Jews evolved from the Pharisees.

It is just that Christianity is a watered down branch of Pharisaic Judaism, with similar practises, beliefs and customs.

Religions/practice fosters faith.

Yeah, some practices do lead to more faith, as they require faith to achieve.

How can you have faith standing still?

Easy; you could be completely disabled, and still have faith, else why would you want to live otherwise?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Youre comparing a christians devotion with the phracesees. Thrn say jesus did not like their practices. You are basically calling christians pharasees.or however you spell it.

Easy; you could be completely disabled, and still have faith, else why would you want to live otherwise?

If Im completely disabled I can have faith in an alien one hour a zebra another. What defines my faith in these two things between those two hours?

Most who know christ built some sort of relationship with him. How do protestant christians have faith in a christ they cannot form a relationship with given their disability?

How do I have faith in her? What type of faith lets me know I love THIS woman and no other.

--

Im not protestant minded. People who are not able to repent and commune (action words), the priest visits them personally and shares communion. If its life and death, some protestants recieve communion if applicable.

I dont believe in "say the words and you are healed"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeshua was teaching faith is in action...Let your works, glorify our Father in Heaven.

Not in religious practises, to be seen before men.

I don't think it is about belief either, based on Yeshua's teachings in the synoptic gospels; yet Paul makes it into a religious belief.

Which is why saying Christianity; yet wasn't meaning Christ.

Sorry for any discombobulation caused.

All religions are One; it is just our understanding of God.

Works ARE religious practices

 

[wizanda]

Works ARE religious practices

Works according to Yeshua, is healing, feeding the sick, helping those in prison, giving to the homeless, the orphans, etc....

He didn't say, 'and the goats on my left depart from me, as you didn't do enough 'Hail Marys', and other such religious practises.'

If Im completely disabled I can have faith in an alien one hour a zebra another. What defines my faith in these two things between those two hours?

The belief would vary, based on your opinions on the two ideologies, then depending how much you believed, you might apply more trust (faith) on one of the ideas.

Personally would go with the Zebra, they're cool as their name starts with Z; where as Ancient Alien religions have been around for 10,000 years or more.

How do protestant christians have faith in a christ they cannot form a relationship with given their disability?

There are multiple ways someone could hear the gospel, there are braille versions, etc.

Trust comes from hearing, and believing it.

God isn't going to abandon someone in a hospital bed, because they can't do anything to prove their faith.

The action of sharing it, doesn't always have to be a full on mother Teresa, to prove our faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im not protestant minded. Action whether its Mother Teresa or myself (no heirarchy) is important in christian faith.

Jesus Christ didnt just believed-people saved. He didnt just sit on his tush (no pun) and said "walla! Guys you saved". No. He acted: life, death, and resurrection.

What more evidence of practice priority does one need but in Christ's actions? (I honestly cant go beyond that.)

Works according to Yeshua, is healing, feeding the sick, helping those in prison, giving to the homeless, the orphans, etc....

These are religious works. You are looking at gold.

He didn't say, 'and the goats on my left depart from me, as you didn't do enough 'Hail Marys', and other such religious practises.

Wrong century dude. No priest has told me because I didnt say enough Hail Marys Im going to hell. Mary isnt a substitute for christ's forgiveness.

Looking at gold again.

The action of sharing it, doesn't always have to be a full on mother Teresa, to prove our faith

All christians should do religious acts.

Protestants separate christians into groups (you vs me) just as catholics (catholic/christian vs protestant/christian).

There is no heirarchy among christ. Both of you guys just dont Get it.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Without faith what is left ? To sit under a tree with the eyes closed and wait?
I have faith I'm going to make it safely without it I would not get on the aeroplane .
Faith in myself gives me the confidence to live life to the full without a lottery win .
ex fide fiducia

 

[Zardoz]

So what about a Christian who believes one attains salvation with faith alone. What's his religion?

Let's flip this around.

So what about a Humanistic/Non-Theistic Jew who practices Orthodox Judaism. What's his faith?

 

[JoStories]

Agree with a lot of what you're saying; yet these lines step back into a religious usage of the words.... Faith doesn't mean what Paul ascribed to it, 'that faith is the hope of things not seen'.

Faith simply means to trust, the later usage is because of Paul ascribing, 'the faith' to mean a religious belief.

Like it says the whole world will be deceived by the Anti-Christ's teachings, and yet most are unaware that is even happening at a word definition level as well.

The Hebrew word for 'faith' is 'to trust' as well, they weren't talking about following religious beliefs; yet sadly due to priests creating religion, many people are left with a shadow of what the followers of God had.

I agree with you for the most part, save about the anti-Christ notion as I don't believe in that line of thinking. It smacks of the religion aspect of this thread instead of the faith aspect. But I do agree its trust that faith is about Wizanda.

 

[JoStories]

I feel to have faith in someone or something it should be in external form. I have faith in the Dharma not because I believe it but because I Practice it. I have faith in my ancestors not I belief they exist but because I know theynexist from my being here, what I do, my personality, etc is based on them and their ancestors. My Practice (or religion) is building a relarionship with people I have yet to know.

Faith doesnt make sense if you are standing still. I can have faith I can fly. Muster up all my physiological senses. Really do some psychological acrobats but my faith doesnt mean anything to Me unless I attempt to do And confirm where I decide to put my faith in.

IMO, you are confusing two different things here. Faith is not belief in something, although that definition of the word works as well. What you are speaking of with flying is more belief that you could and not faith in it. I understand that for you, faith has to be external, as we have discussed this before. And as you know. I will not agree with you so perhaps it is best that we agree to disagree here.

 

[JoStories]

Actually, that is not true in terms of what Merton said. What he did say is that his Catholic/Christian faith was enhanced, especially with his exposure to Buddhist teachings. Remember that he was a monk, and there are some common characteristics that are shared with both Catholic and Buddhist monks.

BTW, ever read "The Seven Story Mountain"? Excellent book.

And, btw, I say much the same in regards to it also having a significant influence on my "brand" Judaism. One of the words in the Vietnamese language for Buddhism also means "common sense", and much of dharma is just that, common sense-- although sometimes it ain't too common.

My apologies for the mistake about Merton and yes, I have read that book...most excellent indeed. Of course Buddhism makes common sense, at least IMO. It may not be common but I believe it is growing in popularity. Here in my state, which has largely been Catholic due to the influx of French-Canadians, we are seeing Buddhist temples pop up quite regularly here. I think that is awesome.

 

[JoStories]

I honestly dont feel you understand thr importance of practice in a religious setting and how that relates to faith/trust (which I mentioned posts back). If you understood how Jesus emphasis practice and the context it was related, hopefully youd look pas the gold walls and priests dress. Youd see Catholics are not Catholics by ritual but by their faith in Christ.

If you dont understand a christians faith in christ how would you understand how practice and ritual (if you like) is more than mouthing etc?

I cant make you understand the importance of practice as long as you attatch it to isolated rituals which you find have no meaning biblically.

I will come back and explain more. I dont know if your bias (good or bad) is blocking you from seeing it from another christians view.

Forgive me but I don't think you are being fair here. You have one opinion, and Wizanda and myself have another. Why does that mean we are biased? How can you know that you are 100% correct in your assertions? You have faith that you have the right idea but you could very well be wrong about it. For me, it is not practice that 'proves' my faith. It is the faith alone.

 

[wizanda]

Why does that mean we are biased?

Though i agree Carlita is applying that same bias to both of us in a way; she is applying it mainly against me....

As she seems to think I've cut off to understanding Christianity like her self; instead I've spent years studying all aspects of it, to understand where it had fallen away from following Christ.

So when i was saying about Anti-Christ's teachings, Yeshua was teaching what we're saying, that the religious practises, often blind people to seeing, that faith comes from within.

When we remove the additional authors, John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) to only leave Yeshua's teachings....

We're left with faith in action; the others teach a religious belief, as being called 'the faith', so they established this idea of 'a religion' meaning 'a faith'.

 

[metis]

My apologies for the mistake about Merton and yes, I have read that book...most excellent indeed. Of course Buddhism makes common sense, at least IMO. It may not be common but I believe it is growing in popularity. Here in my state, which has largely been Catholic due to the influx of French-Canadians, we are seeing Buddhist temples pop up quite regularly here. I think that is awesome.

Yes, and in France so many have converted to Buddhism that even the Dalai Lama told them to slow down, and that they do not have to convert but can just bring some elements of dharma into their own faith. I have literally read a couple of hundred theology books over the years, and my favorite three are by Buddhist authors, two by the Dalai Lama and one by the Buddhist monk Mattieu Ricard-- the latter is my favorite. One of the Buddhists who posts here at RF also has Ricard as his favorite author as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

IMO, you are confusing two different things here. Faith is not belief in something, although that definition of the word works as well. What you are speaking of with flying is more belief that you could and not faith in it. I understand that for you, faith has to be external, as we have discussed this before. And as you know. I will not agree with you so perhaps it is best that we agree to disagree here.

Thank you. With debates, I am more focused on whether the other person understands me rather than right or wrongs. I kinda see faith, belief, and religion differently. Thats why Im so confused why people put dpwn religion a lot. Its not just christians to my amazement.

Its all good.