Please dont say Im debating with myself. This took me a bit. If we disagree, please let me know. These are just my points; they dont need top be refuted. As long as we understand each other, we are good. This is long. If you dont want to reply, just let me know.
Edit: I have to cut it. The numbers wont match.
These will be short comments and I will either agree or disagree as well.
1.
Faith originally means to trust, it doesn't originally have any religious contexts applied to it.
I mentioned faith means trust (below). Why does origionality have to do with truth? We evolve and meanings evolve. A lot of us value religious context applied to faith. It strengthens us. A Catholic may light a candle and pray to the Eucharist, I use incense and pray to my grandmother, Buddhist bow and light candles, and so on and so forth. Faith isnt isolated.
3.
Yet until we go from just a belief, to acceptance in our hearts; then no amount of practising reading it again and again, will deliver anything.
Fortunately, though,
not all people are just believing and practicing without trust. A lot of religious of all religions practice again and again and it delivers something because they have faith/trust and they have more than belielf and they have heart within (however you put it).
4.
Because faith comes from within, so if you've got strong faith in your self as saying; then you'll have the confidence to do other tasks you've never tried, and be successful as faith carries you through.
Saying you've got faith in something or someone, when you're completely lacking in faith in your self, means it doesn't stand up to much.
True. This applies to everyone of course. Rituals and practice does not void that people do agree to this just as you and I and half the other people with honest trust in whatever religion (or spirituality, whatever) they are commited (maybe devoted) too.
5.
Catholics have been programmed that way, that faith is following religious ritual; yet that is a religious belief, it isn't faith...Not even sure following dogmatic ritualistic behavior ever arrives at having trust in your self (faith).
Fortunately,
not all Catholics are like that. Maybe say "some" Catholics? If you mean all, then I completely disagree. Many Catholics say that religions belief is faith not because they depend on rituals in order to trust god,
they know they have god without a church, but because rituals (if you like) strengthen their faith. For example, my ancestors are with me wherever I go. My using candles and incense is something I
want to do in order to connect to my family not something I
need to do.
Can you notice that Im taking the generalizations out. I disagree with your assertion but its even more bothersome to put all people in a boat.
6.
Its an identity. When I practiced Catholicism, saying I am Catholic did not mean "JUST a relationship with Christ". It meant the whole caching. His body. His blood. Repentence. Salvation. Resurrection. Communion. God, how they defined it, was inengraved in me.
Being a Catholic is more than rituals.
8.
It wont come from books. Actual involvement in heart and soul not from a bias perspective. Catholicism isnt for everyone and I hate when its belittled.
"Catholics are programed..." is belittling Catholics. Thats why I said this. You mentioned you study and have a grandfather who was devout catholic (below) and you switched to many faiths (below). Did you ever had a relationship within these faiths or where they just rituals?
10.
See to me you're not even discussing faith (trust), you're discussing religious practises as being faith...
There is a difference between
depending on rituals to have faith and your
faith involving rituals as a part of your faith. Believe me, Catholics can have faith without rituals.
11.
Faith to me would be Catholics who go out in dangerous environments to help the needy....
You dont see Catholics doing that? If not, its the area not the Church. Over here they do it all the time. Probably more than most Churches since the Church has a lot of money.
12.
Going to mass, doing holy communion, ceremonial prayer, confession, etc, are religious rituals, and don't necessarily have anything to do with trust/faith.
True. However, not everyone falls in this boat.
13.
Trust doesn't need any religious practises, it is just a switch in our hearts....
True Not everyone sees religious practices separate from change of heart. They do agree with you, you know. The difference is rituals, culture, customs, and so forth are
a part of their faith not a substitution for it.
16.
My granddad was a devout Roman Catholic, he had never read the Bible, just followed all the ritual, and that was enough for him to be classed as a Catholic.
Not every Catholic falls into this category. I see you blanketing Catholics in general. Say "some" or maybe "the Catholics I know" but to say Catholics in general (above) thats different.
17.
Yet that doesn't mean in the slightest I've not understood what you're on about; its just not what I'd call trust building, more like dogmatic justification.
Thats alright. We differ. Just know know not all catholics replace faith with ritual.
18.
He didn't say, 'and the goats on my left depart from me, as you didn't do enough 'Hail Marys', and other such religious practises.'
Sounds like personal experience talking there. A lot of us havent had that "you must say hail marys" I do admit that people like my friend feel obligated to. I just wouldnt put all Catholics in one boat.
19.
Trust comes from hearing, and believing it
All Catholics (at least in the CCC) most likely believe that. At least the ones devout in their faith as per your definition. There are Catholics who agree with you.
20.
Im not protestant minded. Action whether its Mother Teresa or myself (no heirarchy) is important in christian faith.
Spark notes: Action is important in the Christian faith. If you like. Original OP, I said faith is the core, religion is the action. Both go hand in hand. Many Catholics know this others dont.
28.
Yet I'd never deny someone doesn't have a relationship, with God, Yeshua, Buddha, Lao Tzu, 0neness, etc; as the Holy Spirit helps the needy (learn), regardless of belief, else no one would be saved.
What number is that? Above you said that catholics are using ritual as if it were faith. Basically, youre saying that Catholics dont have faith, they have ritual. You are denying their relationshp with god because you are saying they have ritual rather than faith. I will come back once If find the number. Im on my nook, so its hard to keep looking up.
29.
BTW, I was raised in a large Roman Catholic => Jehovah's Witness => Methodist, Baptist, Christian => Evangelical Messianic with our own Christian bookshop family.
Did you have a relationship with the Roman Catholic Church? If so, why do you see it so harshly? Is it like finding out your loved one is an abuser or something? I dont see how one can be against something he practiced unless maybe it wasnt a part of you. It was just a ritual.
30.
If you do ceremony without faith, it becomes uncolourful, and we can see that happen in many religious cultures; where what were enlightening vibrations, has become repetitive strain.
True. Thats not the case in Catholicism. At least from my bias/experience, study, etc. I may not agree with a lot of things, but Id never say they have repetitive strain..... thats just me. Sounds like an opinion not a fact. Depends on the person.
32.
As God is right in front of us, if we removed all the dimensions, it is just our understanding and perception separating u
Could be. Everryone is different. Not wrong. Different.
36.
Call me pagan, but I find both rituals and inner faith equal in expressing ones devotion to whatever spiritual path they choose or are called to follow. Id be nuts to say "my family is found within. Bye ma! By great cousin!
Related to qoute post 32.
37.
Yet if you do a ritual, and have no interest in it, thinking it is a load of rubbish; then why would you think that person had faith?
True. Some Catholics have interest in it and have faith as a part of it. (a part of, not substitute for)
38.
You seem to be applying your values, when you were a Catholic, to the whole Catholic church globally, and not 'all' members of any religion have the same intent, faith, beliefs, etc.
All the Catholics I knew more intimately all agree with me. Its a personal thang. Im not an alien you know. But no, I try not to. I just love the Catholic Church. But if you get passed the rituals, see the faith, and dont associate catholics in general as substituting faith for rituals, then we cool.
40.
The whole Catholic church are not like yo
Of course not. Im talking through my experiences as likewise your experiences and study.
41.
Stop applying everyone also does it, as you're limiting yourself to questioning other people's perspectives, by asserting your opinions on to everyone else, before truly questioning everything
I had to triple read this. Thats why Im not part of the Church. Lots of questions. Answers. well.....
42.
So when a Christian, attends service, performs religious ritual, etc, and thinks that makes a difference to their sins within their soul, it doesn't; only by repentance, and meditation can we cleanse the inside.
For some people, that applies. Other people it does not. Like I said, faith and rituals go hand in hand.Rituals is not a substitute for faith. In other words, in my humble opinion, that is a generalization and its wrong.
Hope this goes through; hope this goes through
