Religion vs. Faith

[Unveiled Artist]

Forgive me but I don't think you are being fair here. You have one opinion, and Wizanda and myself have another. Why does that mean we are biased? How can you know that you are 100% correct in your assertions? You have faith that you have the right idea but you could very well be wrong about it. For me, it is not practice that 'proves' my faith. It is the faith alone.

I mean bias as we only see through our perspective worldview. So our interpretations on philisophical understanding especially religion will be influenced by how we see the world (our bias, I told @wizanda : good or bad)

For example, anyone can tell me their history and ansestors are not important to them. They can say they are not connected to them. Thats fine but in my bias that makes no sense. Withiut our ancestors where would we be? Without them, how do we know who we are? Everything is through them. The ancestors of the land, of nature, of other people (the spirits) are all important.

So that how I interpret reality through that worldview. That is My bias. I accept that. It will influence how Insee things. I accept that.

Many God-believers dont accept that they have a belief an opinion not a fact. They are aguring as if they have the keys to the universe and I explain that is not so.

They are speak through their bias as I do mine (good or bad). That bias can make me see differently about others faiths. If its completely wrong To Me, it may make me judgemental.

With Wazanda I express my opinion to him. To me its a fact but I accept I have bias.

Saying that some catholics if not all dont read their bibles, only mouthing, dont know true faith is Not assertive statements and appropriate. Its based on bias (good or bad) of his experience: his grandfather (I think?), his study of the bible, his view on church rituals.

None of which he told me these negative alligations are based on intimate and whole hearted Faith in the Church. None of these are based on knowing god through the Eucharist.

To be blunt, he belittles the very nature of Catholicism and Catholics relationship with christ based on what I said above (biases).

Do I agree? 100% no. However, there is a better way to say "you are wrong" and this is why without belittling another christians relationship with christ.

I never remembered doing that before. I read in a sutra, Lotus I believe, The Buddha says not to put down others beliefs (meaning other buddhist school of thought)

What not better to acknowledge my experiences etc (my biases), take of my glasses and see another persons reality in Their shoes Not mine.

Until they see that, many if not most god-believers will be stuck in their bias. That makes it hard to debate if you cant share a common foundation to base an argument. I experienced an intimate relationship with the Church. As far as Im told, Wazanda has not.

How can he understand a Catholics relationship without stepping in their shoes or experiencing the intimacy of the Church?

My co worker is christian and she puts down the church. I told her the same. She says it would harm her spirit. That is based on bias--her experiences, study, etc based on her feelings not on another.

I dont care for that. Like the post with you, I rather people understand me not prove me wrong. My bias wont let me see pass my experience with the church.

If I tried to go in Wazanda shoes, Id be bothered in spirit. Not because he has an opinion but it belittles the very Church I and thousanda of other chrisians have personal connections with.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Though i agree Carlita is applying that same bias to both of us in a way; she is applying it mainly against me....

As she seems to think I've cut off to understanding Christianity like her self; instead I've spent years studying all aspects of it, to understand where it had fallen away from following Christ.

So when i was saying about Anti-Christ's teachings, Yeshua was teaching what we're saying, that the religious practises, often blind people to seeing, that faith comes from within.

When we remove the additional authors, John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) to only leave Yeshua's teachings....

We're left with faith in action; the others teach a religious belief, as being called 'the faith', so they established this idea of 'a religion' meaning 'a faith'.

But why say Catholics dont have an intimate relationship with Christ based on your studies and grandfather (or father?) Isnt that taking it a bit too far?

My overall point: Im not questioning your knowledge and opinion, just your judgement of others relationship with Christ based on your knowledge and opinion.

Its one thing to study the bible, as I am puting my geneology together, its another to say those in a specific religion dont have a relationship with christ because they involve rituals. Thats like saying John doesnt have a relationship with his family because he doesnt want to look up his geneology. Isnt that kind of scr, um, off to you?

My aunts and mother are all trying to look up who we are through our past. If I told others, through my own bias, their relationship is void because the proper way to learn about family is by paperwork, Id be wrong.

We learn about our family in different ways: some orally, some by reading books, some by prayers, others by research.

I found more accurate things by research than what somethings my family say because in many cases my family dont know, forgot with age, or want to keep things hidden.

Yet, I trust their opinion over any paperwork. Its a personal thang.

--

Likewise with Catholicism. I have read the full Bible. Unlike many Catholics over 40 years ago, Im allowed to. now. I am also allowed to see the priest face in confession where in the past (and some churches today as I visited in NY) the priest and confessor were separated by walls and bar like windows. Very creepy. The priests actually faces the congregation during Mass rather than my seeing heir back. They also talk in English instead of Latin finally.

These changes happen almost recently.

So my experience (and many my age) is more intimate than say someone over 50 and indoctrinated. Thats ONLY in my Bias. The Fact is, my opinion does not all of the sudden voids intimacy of these Catholics over 40 indoctrinated. Many may have that intimacy. Who am I to say they dont?

That would be wrong and rude for me to say people over 40 and indoctrinated dont have a real relationship with christ because of what I read and studied in the bible and experienced above in Latin Mass one time.

A lot of people today rather go to Latin Mass. Horrific in my view because Id be involved in thousands of years of slaughterous history; And, my point, it doesnt give me a right to belittle anothers faith just because my study, experience, and opinion.

Its like saying "Oneness is wrong because I read in X that there is only one truth (my truth) and it cant be shared with another" how in the world would I know? "Because I studied all that expresses Oneness and found out from my studies and family that its not real Oneness"

That doesnt make sense. All is Oneness. Who am I to judge just because how I see oneness through my bias differs than yours.

Its one thing to talk about Paul, Peter, Rituals, etc. (Which is find, just the Catholic parts we disagree one) Its another to say catholics dont have a relationship with christ based on your study, observer experience, and opinion.

Thats an insult and why Im passionate about this. Not because you dont have knowledge in the bible. Its because of your knowledge of the bible and other things creates a block of knowing the difference in judging the Church and judging ones Relationship which is the Church (Christ) as a Real relationship not a fake one.

My point: Judge the Church and rituals all you want. Many do. Just dont judge someones relationship with Christ just because they are Catholics. (also, another lit' peeve readers, say christian not Catholic. Oneness).

Can you see the difference; does that make sense?

 

[wizanda]

Its one thing to talk about Paul, Peter, Rituals, etc. Its another to say catholics dont have a relationship with christ based on your study

If someone is following Paul, John and Simon, then they're following contrary to what Yeshua taught in the synoptic gospels.

If someone believes that jesus in the gospel of John, is anything like Yeshua in the synoptic gospels, then it shows they weren't following him.

Yet I'd never deny someone doesn't have a relationship, with God, Yeshua, Buddha, Lao Tzu, 0neness, etc; as the Holy Spirit helps the needy (learn), regardless of belief, else no one would be saved.

BTW, I was raised in a large Roman Catholic => Jehovah's Witness => Methodist, Baptist, Christian => Evangelical Messianic with our own Christian bookshop family.

Neither do i belittle holy ceremony within any religion globally, regardless of how funny they maybe....It is someones personal faith, that makes them perform these tasks, perceiving it is the work that makes the faith.

Where as it is the faith that we put into something, that makes the work magical.

Same happens in music, when you make it sound like you trust in what you're doing, it sounds amazing, any lack of faith, and the note isn't solid.

If you do ceremony without faith, it becomes uncolourful, and we can see that happen in many religious cultures; where what were enlightening vibrations, has become repetitive strain.

Not sure why you'd think I've got something specifically against the Catholic church, they're just as dogmatic ritualistic as many religions.

So the religion isn't what makes the faith, as the beliefs people hold often lead us to becoming dogmatic, and we forgot that it was about putting energy into something, that made it have any power.

There is a story of Ganesha in a race around the world, and rather then run around the world, he runs around God, and explains that since it is everything, there was no point detracting from the source.

As God is right in front of us, if we removed all the dimensions, it is just our understanding and perception separating us.

It is the intent, the faith, the trust, the love, the praise, the adoration, the essence that goes into something, that makes it anything.

So to me it is pointless going around the world to find God, when you're not looking for faith from within.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If someone is following Paul, John and Simon, then they're following contrary to what Yeshua taught in the synoptic gospels.

If someone believes that jesus in the gospel of John, is anything like Yeshua in the synoptic gospels, then it shows they weren't following him.

Yet I'd never deny someone doesn't have a relationship, with God, Yeshua, Buddha, Lao Tzu, 0neness, etc; as the Holy Spirit helps the needy (learn), regardless of belief, else no one would be saved.

BTW, I was raised in a large Roman Catholic => Jehovah's Witness => Methodist, Baptist, Christian => Evangelical Messianic with our own Christian bookshop family.

Neither do i belittle holy ceremony within any religion globally, regardless of how funny they maybe....It is someones personal faith, that makes them perform these tasks, perceiving it is the work that makes the faith.

Where as it is the faith that we put into something, that makes the work magical.

Same happens in music, when you make it sound like you trust in what you're doing, it sounds amazing, any lack of faith, and the note isn't solid.

If you do ceremony without faith, it becomes uncolourful, and we can see that happen in many religious cultures; where what were enlightening vibrations, has become repetitive strain.

Not sure why you'd think I've got something specifically against the Catholic church, they're just as dogmatic ritualistic as many religions.

So the religion isn't what makes the faith, as the beliefs people hold often lead us to becoming dogmatic, and we forgot that it was about putting energy into something, that made it have any power.

There is a story of Ganesha in a race around the world, and rather then run around the world, he runs around God, and explains that since it is everything, there was no point detracting from the source.

As God is right in front of us, if we removed all the dimensions, it is just our understanding and perception separating us.

It is the intent, the faith, the trust, the love, the praise, the adoration, the essence that goes into something, that makes it anything.

So to me it is pointless going around the world to find God, when you're not looking for faith from within.

Its because I see pass the rituals. In Mass its all about Christ. I feel sad when another believer cant see that. Its just my personal experience in the church does not mirror that religions/dogma/rituals are faithless. (Edit) like god cant be experienced in rituals "too".

Call me pagan, but, that just blows my mind.

 

[George-ananda]

What's the difference between one's religion and one's faith?

Sometimes the two words are used interchangeably but I don't really like that. 'Faith' to me requires a leap to something one believes they have good reason to trust. 'Religion' for me is the result of my rational analysis of what is most reasonable to believe and how then to live according to that 'belief'. So I feel a little insulted when I hear my 'religion' referred to as a 'faith'. The word 'faith' is often used against me in RF discussions by those who want to imply that having a religion requires a faith leap and an abandoning of rationality.

 

[wizanda]

Its just my personal experience in the church does not mirror that religions/dogma/rituals are faithless.

Not saying ceremony is faithless; saying faith comes from within, and no amount of religious practise, can then put something in, that wasn't there to begin with.

It all starts from within; if you don't apply trust into something, then any ritual doesn't provide faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im sure many religious believe outside in rather than inside out.

Call me pagan, but I find both rituals and inner faith equal in expressing ones devotion to whatever spiritual path they choose or are called to follow. Id be nuts to say "my family is found within. Bye ma! By great cousin! I can learn about my family without talking to you guys" kinda see how that makes no sense to me. Tell any christian that communion means nothing. That symbolic remembrance and for others literal remembrance, that physical communion like a hug from a family member just makes so much more sense than saying "oh, I can find this within. No problem".

Im sure Catholics can live without the Eucharist and still be Catholics. One doesnt need the Eucharist tonfind Christ within. Christ is there regardless. Eucharist brings him alive by his body and blood. When there are more than one, christ is there.

Mpst Catholics Im sure dont need the Church walls to know Christ. I think you are having them be so depended on the Church as if if there were no such thing as the Eucharist, christ wouldnt exist.

At least the Catholics I know all agez believe god is within. Them being part of the church doesnt change that fact anymore than a protestants view. Just they have blinders on to each other. Very sad. I mean both of them.

If someone believes that jesus in the gospel of John, is anything like Yeshua in the synoptic gospels, then it shows they weren't following him.

Thats a bold claim. How do you know? (My overall point)

BTW, I was raised in a large Roman Catholic => Jehovah's Witness => Methodist, Baptist, Christian => Evangelical Messianic with our own Christian bookshop family.

Did you have an intimate relationship with these denomni? If so, how can you change from JW to methodist? Thats a big switch.

If I were christian and went JW, theyd gonna have to hog tie me because my devotion in JW wont be the same without the Eucharist. Superficial relationships with denominations. I cant understand that drastic switch.

If you do ceremony without faith, it becomes uncolourful, and we can see that happen in many religious cultures; where what were enlightening vibrations, has become repetitive strain.

Another example of my overall point. How do you know? Put it this way, I never saw and experienced it that way. Was I not religious? Fake catholic?

Not sure why you'd think I've got something specifically against the Catholic church, they're just as dogmatic ritualistic as many religions.

Theres a thread called Common Turn Offs
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...your-religion-or-beliefs.185035/#post-4651561

@Laika, I believe, said something like you belittle the religion, you belittle its inhertants. I agree. You have the right to youe opinion. It just sounds off.

So to me it is pointless going around the world to find God, when you're not looking for faith fr

Some people find god by action, communion, prayer, and culture. God isnt isolated. He is a part of everything. Oneness. Not emptiness.

Just people are blinded by gold.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not saying ceremony is faithless; saying faith comes from within, and no amount of religious practise, can then put something in, that wasn't there to begin with.

It all starts from within; if you don't apply trust into something, then any ritual doesn't provide faith.

Thats what I mean. I dont see how rituals etc can make people be faithless (no faith within). Unless you feel catholics depend on rituals to believe in Christ.

 

[Laika]

@Laika, I believe, said something like you belittle the religion, you belittle its inhertants. I agree. You have the right to youe opinion. It just sounds off.

Basically, yes. It's problemtatic because depending how you define "belittle" can also include criticism which may be true and legitimate. But, because religions tend to be more collectivistic, and people share an identity around it- belittling the religion implicitly belittles its adherents. It's deeply impersonal to talk about the "faults" of a religion whilst totally ignoring it's adherents sitting opposite you. Religion is what people build their lives around, so its pretty offensive to "attack" a belief system especially when people are mis-charactising it or making vague generalisations about it being good or bad without specific deatils to back it up.

 

[wizanda]

I dont see how rituals etc can make people be faithless (no faith within).

No one ever has no faith within, even when they try to completely hate on everything, there is still always a ray of hope somewhere.

Yet if you do a ritual, and have no interest in it, thinking it is a load of rubbish; then why would you think that person had faith?

You seem to be applying your values, when you were a Catholic, to the whole Catholic church globally, and not 'all' members of any religion have the same intent, faith, beliefs, etc.

Unless you feel catholics depend on rituals to believe in Christ.

It isn't only Catholics who have religious devotion ceremony; it is all very nice for us....

Yet the metaphysical only feels the intent of the people; so why not first come to the right intent, before making ceremony to look good.

And no i don't see gold, you might; i see many cups that are polished in blood on the outside, and most forgot about cleaning the inside.

So no i don't think 'all' Catholics believe through ritual they come to Christ, or 'all' Buddhists through ritual understand the Dharma, etc.

Even within the Bible, James and Paul tell the same story of Abraham offering his son differently, one sees the ritual led to faith, the other faith led to the ritual.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No one ever has no faith within, even when they try to completely hate on everything, there is still always a ray of hope somewhere.

Yet if you do a ritual, and have no interest in it, thinking it is a load of rubbish; then why would you think that person had faith?

You seem to be applying your values, when you were a Catholic, to the whole Catholic church globally, and not 'all' members of any religion have the same intent, faith, beliefs, etc.

It isn't only Catholics who have religious devotion ceremony; it is all very nice for us....

Yet the metaphysical only feels the intent of the people; so why not first come to the right intent, before making ceremony to look good.

And no i don't see gold, you might; i see many cups that are polished in blood on the outside, and most forgot about cleaning the inside.

So no i don't think 'all' Catholics believe through ritual they come to Christ, or 'all' Buddhists through ritual understand the Dharma, etc.

Even within the Bible, James and Paul tell the same story of Abraham offering his son differently, one sees the ritual led to faith, the other faith led to the ritual.

Some things I agree. Some I dont. A few, I think you missed my point.

You seem to be applying your values, when you were a Catholic, to the whole Catholic church globally, and not 'all' members of any religion have the same intent, faith, beliefs, etc.

Its natual. Its a bias. Likewise Im saying this is for you as well. We see through our bias but if it blocks us from looking into another persons shoes, there is a problem. My experience in the Church isnt "my" experience. Its not isolated. Its the full Body of Christ (context not content). So the four years I spenr with other Catholics and twenty or so odd yeara with my catholic friend of all ages, all backgrounds, from people who were punished for reading their bibles to people like me who thinks it the most weirdest thing in the world to not read about your own belief. Thats like going to college ans the teacher says "no, you dont need a text book. Were going to translate the material how We want you to hear it. Take notes from us"

Off yes. Wrong, no. Catholicism isnt sola scriptura. I needed experience not just study to understans that. I needed to have a relarionship with other christians, Ill say, to really "get" behind those biasitic (made up word) walls of mine.

If I just went off study and my family, I would have Never been Catholic. Its more than gold...on that note..

And no i don't see gold, you might; i see many cups that are polished in blood on the outside, and most forgot about cleaning the inside.

Gold=cups that are polished with blood on outside but not the inside (in other words, you are looking at the outside. I am not.)

Which brings me to

Yet the metaphysical only feels the intent of the people; so why not first come to the right intent, before making ceremony to look good.

Personal preference. Not Wrong just Preference.

Some people feel the need of community, culture, family, customs. Like some families eat at a dinner table others in front of the tv. Or my family who took our plates and went to our rooms and only met up on thanksgiving and birthdays.

I personally love the full cha-bang. I cant understand how one follows a faith or whatever you call it without everything that makes that path what it is.

Im not a one man island, though. The only people who dont seem to get it is many JW (though odd since they have religion), many protestant sola scriptura christians, and to my surprise (honestly) yourself. I dont get it.

We either disagree or seeing completely different things.

Im sure Catholics know priests dont clean the cups completely. Im also quite sure many know not all priest wipe their hands full if they got wet at all.

Thats what you see.

I see a community saying "its not about dirt, polished glasses, etc" Its about Christ and Christ only.

Everyone else seems to think Catholics are blind. literally.

They arent aliens. Im sure many have a relationship with christ just as Joe Sola Scriptura does. No difference. Unless christ plays favorites.

 

[JoStories]

Though i agree Carlita is applying that same bias to both of us in a way; she is applying it mainly against me....

As she seems to think I've cut off to understanding Christianity like her self; instead I've spent years studying all aspects of it, to understand where it had fallen away from following Christ.

So when i was saying about Anti-Christ's teachings, Yeshua was teaching what we're saying, that the religious practises, often blind people to seeing, that faith comes from within.

When we remove the additional authors, John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) to only leave Yeshua's teachings....

We're left with faith in action; the others teach a religious belief, as being called 'the faith', so they established this idea of 'a religion' meaning 'a faith'.

I can see your POV but I, too, have studied the Bible for decades, in academia. Through that, I learned as you have, that much of what is known as the Bible today is not what Christ taught. Mostly, its Paulian dogma and his teachings very often were the antithesis of what Christ taught. But also keep in mind that I have studied ALL faiths and do not myself hold to anyone other than some of the precepts of Buddhism. I don't see Christ as divine but as another prophet, albeit a fairly good one. I also agree that faith comes from within and is not something that can be found in works or actions or however semantic way a person wishes to see that. Christ taught that we should have the faith of a little child and I don't see small children doing a lot of works out there.

 

[JoStories]

Yes, and in France so many have converted to Buddhism that even the Dalai Lama told them to slow down, and that they do not have to convert but can just bring some elements of dharma into their own faith. I have literally read a couple of hundred theology books over the years, and my favorite three are by Buddhist authors, two by the Dalai Lama and one by the Buddhist monk Mattieu Ricard-- the latter is my favorite. One of the Buddhists who posts here at RF also has Ricard as his favorite author as well.

Yes, I was aware of that. If you speak of the Monk and The Philosopher, yes I have read it. Personally, I prefer the writings of Merton himself. I find them more illuminating but I do agree that the one by Picard is very good, if that is the one you meant.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you. With debates, I am more focused on whether the other person understands me rather than right or wrongs. I kinda see faith, belief, and religion differently. Thats why Im so confused why people put dpwn religion a lot. Its not just christians to my amazement.

Its all good.

I don't think any of us have been putting down religion at all. I just see the two as not synonymous. One can have faith in the absence of religion and yes, many have faith and do express it by work. I kind of see people like that, the ones that are disingenuous, as little children trying to live up to the rules of the house. Its lip reading. Its mouthing platitude....but is it REAL faith in God? That is not something that can be shown outside of one's self. Some do have faith and have shown it through actions but others have not, such as the men and women who went to Hawaii and forced the people there to no longer do their own cultural practices to THEIR God and begin living up to this other god. Is that real faith or is that an abuse of power seen through the lens of 'spreading the good word'

 

[JoStories]

Saying that some catholics if not all dont read their bibles, only mouthing, dont know true faith is Not assertive statements and appropriate. Its based on bias (good or bad) of his experience: his grandfather (I think?), his study of the bible, his view on church rituals.

To be blunt, he belittles the very nature of Catholicism and Catholics relationship with christ based on what I said above (biases).

How would it be possible for anyone to belittle a faith unless one lets them? IOW, you see what he says as belittlement, and that is YOUR perception. Nothing wrong with that but just as you say he is biased by his experiences with Catholic ritual, so, too, are you by thinking he can belittle your faith in any way. If one has true faith in God, nothing in this world can change that. And for the record, I have seen hundreds of thousands mouth the ritualistic platitudes once a week and leave and then go home and beat their wives. I should know this better than most as the sperm donor who was my husband- (may he grow boils on his arse!) did that to me. Go sometime to a Catholic service, particularly those in Latin and watch people as they observe the rituals. Its as mindless as watching TV, and just as much of a waste of time.

 

[wizanda]

My experience in the Church isnt "my" experience.

The whole Catholic church are not like you.

Gold=cups that are polished with blood on outside but not the inside (in other words, you are looking at the outside. I am not.)

That was a metaphor expanded from Matthew 23, of saying that it is pointless washing in the blood of prophets to clean the sins from the outside, and not repent...It is completely about the inside, nothing to do with outside.

So when a Christian, attends service, performs religious ritual, etc, and thinks that makes a difference to their sins within their soul, it doesn't; only by repentance, and meditation can we cleanse the inside.

Another example of my overall point. How do you know? Put it this way, I never saw and experienced it that way. Was I not religious?

Ask people on the forum, how many agree with that statement that ceremony without intent means nothing, most will agree.

Thats a bold claim. How do you know? (My overall point)

The gospel of John isn't the words or teachings of Yeshua, it sounds nothing like him in the synoptic gospels.

Yeshua prophesied that people would be deceived soon after, by people pretending to be him, using the term "I Am", which the gospel of John fulfills.

Personal preference. Not Wrong just Preference.

The divine only can be worshiped by our soul; its not a choice, it just is.

Stop applying everyone also does it, as you're limiting yourself to questioning other people's perspectives, by asserting your opinions on to everyone else, before truly questioning everything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How would it be possible for anyone to belittle a faith unless one lets them? IOW, you see what he says as belittlement, and that is YOUR perception. Nothing wrong with that but just as you say he is biased by his experiences with Catholic ritual, so, too, are you by thinking he can belittle your faith in any way. If one has true faith in God, nothing in this world can change that. And for the record, I have seen hundreds of thousands mouth the ritualistic platitudes once a week and leave and then go home and beat their wives. I should know this better than most as the sperm donor who was my husband- (may he grow boils on his arse!) did that to me. Go sometime to a Catholic service, particularly those in Latin and watch people as they observe the rituals. Its as mindless as watching TV, and just as much of a waste of time.

I dont believe in god. I have gone to Latin Mass and that is one of many reasons I left the Church. However, I dont see things so grim and negative. I have heard people call priests and catholicism bad all becauze X amount of priest abused kids. Yet, in traditional churches, you cannot even see the priest let alone look him in the eye. There is a full wall between the priest and confessant and bar likd window to talk through. He room is smaller than a closet and dark. You have the choice lock the door but the whole thing was creepy. When I "had" confessed there the priest fussed and sais "the devil made me do it!"

I went to a very nice retreat for four days. Only Catholics can go. I found out from people forty and over they were not allowed to read the bibles.

Another priest yelled at me one time.

Catholicism is not for everyone. On the Good side, instead of basing ones faith the abuse made of others of the same faith, calling all priests child molesters based on a handful of priest who did it out of thousands who did not, I have seen people have pure faith in christ through the church.

These handful of people, if anticatholics like, are not mouthing and during ritualistic prayers.

Okay. Thats like telling me I was a fake catholic because I went to mass daily, said hail marries twice a week, lit candles, and prayed "in front of" statues. (Past tense) Im not an alien here. My friend is a devout catholic. She isnt an alien.

Rituals do not always lead people away from their faith in christ. Im just sorry to hear if not upset that people even put X amount of people in pne catetory to define the whole set by those same standards. Usually negative.

I told Wazanda, I have bias too and its based on All my four year experiences of being in a relationship with the Church. Not attend Mass. Not do rituals amlessly. Not indoctrinated in the faith. No. Full relationship with christ through the Church..

It was beautiful. Yet, for some reasons their rituals deny the very catholics who share my sentiment the very nature of how they believe.

No, they shouldnt be swayed but they shouldnt be insulted either. Insults fall on the person insulting. Thats like telling a Catholic, "who, I murdered the priest but dont take it personally. I didnt murder you."

Anyway. You cant judge someones faith in christ because you disagree with the church and see rituals rather than love. In latin mass I saw death and the killing of thousands. I saw politics...the priest never faces the congregation. Mass is only in englizh during the small less than five min sermon. The confessant boxes are just that.

I have not experienced those things repeatey in the church. I am glad. It gives me an open minded perspective of how each denomination worships. It doesnt make me think they are faithless or misguided. Christ died for sinners not for people who supposed to be perfect after confession.

I dont see gold. I see love. Just latin mass made me taste metal. I would Never judge the way they conduct mass by peoples relationship with the church. I see that here and itz aweful. No matter the religion.

Awelful.

Read post 82 and 87. That also explains my point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How would it be possible for anyone to belittle a faith unless one lets them? IOW, you see what he says as belittlement, and that is YOUR perception. Nothing wrong with that but just as you say he is biased by his experiences with Catholic ritual, so, too, are you by thinking he can belittle your faith in any way. If one has true faith in God, nothing in this world can change that. And for the record, I have seen hundreds of thousands mouth the ritualistic platitudes once a week and leave and then go home and beat their wives. I should know this better than most as the sperm donor who was my husband- (may he grow boils on his arse!) did that to me. Go sometime to a Catholic service, particularly those in Latin and watch people as they observe the rituals. Its as mindless as watching TV, and just as much of a waste of time.

Posts 82 and 87 explains my points better than the recent one.

My point is anticatholics are judging peoples faith (real faith) in christ becauze they use rituals as a medium. Insult the church all you want but just dont mirror what you dislike about the church with ones real faith in christ who Many catholics Know and Believe christ is found within.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not sure why you'd think I've got something specifically against the Catholic church, they're just as dogmatic ritualistic as many religions.

Because you say faith within doesnt come from rituals. I disagree. You say this by talking against dogmatic rituals. People have faith because of rituals, if you like. It seems like you are belittling the people because youre inserting rituals dont lead to faith within.

That is not always true.

Not saying ceremony is faithless; saying faith comes from within, and no amount of religious practise, can then put something in, that wasn't there to begin with

My point above. That is a generalized statement. That is not always true.

It all starts from within; if you don't apply trust into something, then any ritual doesn't provide faith.

Many people have faith within thats why rituals are more than mouthing.

And no i don't see gold, you might; i see many cups that are polished in blood on the outside, and most forgot about cleaning the inside.

Gold is a metaphor cor what I was personay describing. People see outside. Religious see inside.

Yet the metaphysical only feels the intent of the people; so why not first come to the right intent, before making ceremony to look good.

Many do agree with you. They come with right intent. Thats a blanket question. Some do some dont.

You seem to be applying your values, when you were a Catholic, to the whole Catholic church globally, and not 'all' members of any religion have the same intent, faith, beliefs, etc.

Thats why you cant make generalized statements that rituals do not bring the religious god within. Thats based on your experience.

Lets take out our experiences.....

So when a Christian, attends service, performs religious ritual, etc, and thinks that makes a difference to their sins within their soul, it doesn't; only by repentance, and meditation can we cleanse the inside.

Thats another generalized statement. Not everyone is like that.

How is that objectively true?

Does it say in the Bible and CCC that repentence and meditation is not part of a cathics faith in christ?

Objectively, how does rituals deprive these two things above?

When you answer, you cant include everyone.

Yeshua prophesied that people would be deceived soon after, by people pretending to be him, using the term "I Am", which the gospel of John fulfills.

Not everyone willnbe decieved. Catholics included.

 

[wizanda]

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You're arguing with yourself, you're not even listening properly to what I'm saying... I give up.