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Religious participation and nonbelief

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
I agree that non-religious people find fulfillment in already established religious rituals. What I wonder is why would non-religious people have their own a-religious ceremonies unless they thought the ceremony had some sort of deeper significance?

I mean, is that sort of fantastical? To make up a ceremony for something you don't actually believe is significant? And if you do, then why say it isn't religious?

Good question. I'm not a huge fan of ritual, but I memorialize things with pictures, parties, dinners, etc. My morning coffee is a ritual, but I can't say it's religious. I don't think of anything in particular when I drink it, I don't worship or perform anything for anyone. I don't particularly like coffee, but I enjoy holding a hot cuppa something in the mornings - and pretty much only in the mornings. I see it as a ritual. Maybe an addiction of sorts.

Public ceremonies are for significant things. They are to honor our values, to celebrate the good, to remember milestones, to unify. They're embedded in religion but aren't religious of themselves.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Are you saying that funerals are meaningless if not religious?

I don't think meaning is as important as spiritual significance. If a ceremony is established with the intent of fulfilling a specific spiritual idea, then the whole point of that ceremony is the fulfillment of that idea.

Why would someone place the same kind of significance on a ceremony that was established because of a specific idea if they don't believe in the idea?

It's like saying you don't believe in marriage but want a marriage ceremony? Why complicate the relationship with the ceremony of marriage when you can simply come together on your own terms?

And if you decide to give your own significance to the ceremony, then what makes it specifically non-religious? It's lack of being the "official" practice of a religion?
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Good question. I'm not a huge fan of ritual, but I memorialize things with pictures, parties, dinners, etc. My morning coffee is a ritual, but I can't say it's religious. I don't think of anything in particular when I drink it, I don't worship or perform anything for anyone. I don't particularly like coffee, but I enjoy holding a hot cuppa something in the mornings - and pretty much only in the mornings. I see it as a ritual. Maybe an addiction of sorts.
Maybe you see it as such, but if it has no particular significance then isn't it just a habit?


Public ceremonies are for significant things. They are to honor our values, to celebrate the good, to remember milestones, to unify. They're embedded in religion but aren't religious of themselves.

I guess it depends on how you define religious. I would argue that ceremonies that have significance beyond their utility are somewhat religious.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I don't think meaning is as important as spiritual significance. If a ceremony is established with the intent of fulfilling a specific spiritual idea, then the whole point of that ceremony is the fulfillment of that idea.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more.

Why would someone place the same kind of significance on a ceremony that was established because of a specific idea if they don't believe in the idea?
They wouldn't.

It's like saying you don't believe in marriage but want a marriage ceremony?
No. It's like saying you don't believe in Christianity (for instance) but still believe in marriage.

And if you decide to give your own significance to the ceremony, then what makes it specifically non-religious? It's lack of being the "official" practice of a religion?
If it's not associated with a religious institution, it's irreligious.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Maybe you see it as such, but if it has no particular significance then isn't it just a habit?

Probably. It meets some criteria as a ritual - it's comforting, it has a specific time and place, and the form is more important than the content. I don't care if it's tea or coffee. It's the soothing nature of the act.

I guess it depends on how you define religious. I would argue that ceremonies that have significance beyond their utility are somewhat religious.

Yes, the definition is important. I mean specifically the adherence and confession of a set of beliefs.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
I know what you mean. I don't feel the same way, but that's because my experiences were so much more negative than yours overall.

Cutting off your quote just to be brief. I'm enjoying your story, bain-druie. I'll say it again, thanks for cracking open the crunchy shell and letting out the gooey inside. :p
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more.
This is a debate forum, why do you disagree?


No. It's like saying you don't believe in Christianity (for instance) but still believe in marriage.
No, it isn't. If you place no spiritual significance on the saying of Kaddish for the dead, then you cannot say that, when you say a Kaddish as someone who doesn't believe in Judaism, it is a ceremony. Because once the significance is gone it isn't anymore. It's just a habit, or a placatory action.

It's being termed a religious ceremony has to do with its religious prescription. If you don't believe that prescription is valid and do it because it pleases you, or makes you feel better, etc, then it's just a self-pleasing action, not a ceremony. Unless you think making yourself happy is ceremonial.

If it's not associated with a religious institution, it's irreligious.

I guess it depends on how you define religion. I would say that a religious act is any act that one gives spiritual significance to. Granted, I'm not one of those people who believes there is a difference between "religious" and "spiritual". Just because you don't belong to a mainstream or established religion doesn't mean that your acts of spiritual significance are not religious.


Probably. It meets some criteria as a ritual - it's comforting, it has a specific time and place, and the form is more important than the content. I don't care if it's tea or coffee. It's the soothing nature of the act.

In other words, it is something you do out of habit because it makes you happy. I don't call that a ritual or a ceremony. It's just an action.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.
Those are all real benefits of being part of the church community. In my view, they are all manifestations of 'love your neighbor,' and even if you never get past that you've already mastered the hardest part of Christianity. Where is the intellectual dishonesty?

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.
If you feel like you are being dishonest with yourself by being in this community, then I guess that would be weird. I would personally find it hard to attend church services if all the way through I was thinking it was just all meaningless, or worse.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”
Makes sense, but every time people start to agree in growing numbers on shared symbols or rituals, you create a religion, or a nation, or some identifiable body that sooner or later another group of people is going to find intellectually dishonest or offensive. :D

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.?
No problem at all.
What about in a leadership role?
Well, if you start leading folks according to your own way of thinking, eventually you'll be going down a different path and forming a new group. :shrug:

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.
Doubt seems a different thing to me than realizing you don't believe any of it. I have participated in religious study groups with some pretty diverse beliefs honestly expressed, all by members of the same church. If one is going to participate only by saying that it is all hogwash and meaningless, then probably staying away from Bible study/religious discussion makes sense. But, if you like a scholarly approach to Bible study, or want to explore what it meant to the church historically, or what if anything it means to you, then being a non-theist would not put you beyond the pale.

2c
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
This is a debate forum, why do you disagree?
Apologies. I have exactly the opposite view. I think religious ritual is rooted in human ritual, not the other way 'round.

No, it isn't. If you place no spiritual significance on the saying of Kaddish for the dead, then you cannot say that, when you say a Kaddish as someone who doesn't believe in Judaism, it is a ceremony. Because once the significance is gone it isn't anymore. It's just a habit, or a placatory action.
Agree, but that's a specific religious ritual, in this case Judaic. If one is not a Jew by faith, they still need some sort of ritual farewell to assist in the grieving process. It could be scattering ashes, or lighting a candle. The significance comes from the soul, not the form.

It's being termed a religious ceremony has to do with its religious prescription. If you don't believe that prescription is valid and do it because it pleases you, or makes you feel better, etc, then it's just a self-pleasing action, not a ceremony. Unless you think making yourself happy is ceremonial.

I guess it depends on how you define religion. I would say that a religious act is any act that one gives spiritual significance to. Granted, I'm not one of those people who believes there is a difference between "religious" and "spiritual". Just because you don't belong to a mainstream or established religion doesn't mean that your acts of spiritual significance are not religious.
Just saw your response to my distinction between "religious" and "spiritual." Sorry for not explicating it sooner, I thought it rather obvious.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
That's the break...right before I responded to this I posted that I see no difference between the two.
Miscommunication abounds! :sorry1:

To elaborate, as I see it everyone is spiritual regardless of their religious affiliation. Some are healthier than others, but we are inherently spiritual animals.

All ritual is spiritual, not all is religious.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Only a handful of people know my position, and they feel awkward around me. If anyone else knows, they haven't told me. And yeah, they hope I'll come back to Christianity.
ah so the plot thickens... ;)
how does it make you feel knowing they are uncomfortable in their place of worship?
The organist I know is at a different church. I don't know if they're aware of his nonbelief.

gotcha...

this is really interesting and i must admit very admirable because it seems to me that you look past all the dogma and are really attracted to the connection you get with people....
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Miscommunication abounds! :sorry1:

To elaborate, as I see it everyone is spiritual regardless of their religious affiliation. Some are healthier than others, but we are inherently spiritual animals.

All ritual is spiritual, not all is religious.

It wasn't miscommunication, we simply have differing views that we hadn't yet communicated to one another, which is why we have different opinions on this matter.

To me, spirituality is equal to religiosity. An act of spiritual significance is an act of religious devotion, even if it doesn't directly relate to any particular religion. I think the two terms can be used synonymously.

Thus, all ritual is spiritual and therefore religious. So I wonder why a person would want to do a ritual that is not religious and therefore (from my perspective) not spiritual either.
 

bain-druie

Tree-Hugger!
Bah, I posted without seeing Storm's much briefer and more to the point reply about UU churches. :facepalm: Will delete the long drawn-out post!

Anyway, to correspond with that, it occurred to me also (which a lot of others have mentioned) that there are groups like that which do not require a shared belief, but still hold ceremonies that pertain to what everyone can and does agree on.

My husband participates in Druid rituals, though he's an atheist. There are lots of other atheist Druids as well, in fact; they hold ritual as having value in its symbolism, because it celebrates the cycle of the year and of life. I suppose UU is the Christian equivalent. :)
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
It wasn't miscommunication, we simply have differing views that we hadn't yet communicated to one another, which is why we have different opinions on this matter.

To me, spirituality is equal to religiosity. An act of spiritual significance is an act of religious devotion, even if it doesn't directly relate to any particular religion. I think the two terms can be used synonymously.

Thus, all ritual is spiritual and therefore religious. So I wonder why a person would want to do a ritual that is not religious and therefore (from my perspective) not spiritual either.
OK. I agree that that would be silly, and I don't think anyone would want to do it.

Do you agree that specific institutions' forms are unnecessary to ritual itself? Like your example of Kaddish for a funeral.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I
Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

I don`t think so.

This is reminiscent of Joseph Cambell's idea of creating a new "true" myth for our culture.
Long story short, I don`t think the masses want reality.
Anything less than a mythology that finds us enjoying eternity in a heavenly afterlife simply can`t beat the status quo.

People want the fairy tale.

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I have no problems with anyone of any belief joining a community of a different belief.
I find it ..odd, but if the larger community allows it why not?

I might find some ethical dilemmas with a non-believer in a leadership role depending on the situation...unsure.

Cure my ignorance, who is Richard Robinson?
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Don't delete! I appreciated it.


Bah, I posted without seeing Storm's much briefer and more to the point reply about UU churches. :facepalm: Will delete the long drawn-out post!

Anyway, to correspond with that, it occurred to me also (which a lot of others have mentioned) that there are groups like that which do not require a shared belief, but still hold ceremonies that pertain to what everyone can and does agree on.

My husband participates in Druid rituals, though he's an atheist. There are lots of other atheist Druids as well, in fact; they hold ritual as having value in its symbolism, because it celebrates the cycle of the year and of life. I suppose UU is the Christian equivalent. :)
 
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