Religious participation and nonbelief

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, that's what I meant. A replacement for all the things religious communities provide.

Do you have to have one single replacement for all of religion? IMO, there's nothing in a religious community experience that can't be found elsewhere, but I doubt you'll be able to find one non-religious group/community/whatever that fits neatly into a religion-shaped hole. You might find it easier to look at each of your needs that are being satisfied by religion in turn and look for something for each of them. Maybe needs A, B and C will be satisfied by one group, while needs D and E (and previously unsatisfied need F) are satisfied by another.

I suppose my main question is how to create or observe rituals to the extent religion does? What are some current nonreligious ceremonies growing in popularity?

There are plenty of atheist or humanist groups that do non-religious ceremonies like weddings and funerals, if that's what you're after.

And speaking for myself, I found all the ritual I could ever ask for when I took up martial arts.

But a non-religious ritual? What use is the ritual unless it actually means something? And if it does mean something, then how is it not religious?

So in your view, meaning necessarily implies religion?

If so, then I strongly disagree with that viewpoint.

I can see that happening. "Evangelical" atheists are viewed as religious by some, and atheist groups could perhaps become similar to religious groups.

Similar, but not identical. I've seen a lot of groups that are created as a kind of refuge for cast-offs: they're not united so much by a set of shared ideas as by the fact that they don't feel like they fit into traditional communities infused by religion.

For instance, I was recently reading about a few non-religious grief counseling groups. Atheists and agnostics were getting frustrated - and more to the point for a support group, were feeling unsupported - by all the religiosity in their grief support groups (e.g. "take comfort in the fact that your departed loved one is looking down on you from Heaven" and stuff like that), so they decided to create groups where that sort of (for them) counter-productive talk is avoided.

Makes me wonder how many non-theists are going to Church. I doubt I would feel uncomfortable around a non-theist, but I would find it a bit unusual (No offense).

There are probably more than you suspect... even behind the pulpit.

Daniel Dennett's done some interesting writing on the issue of non-believing clergy and pastors. It's worth checking out.

Thank you for the suggestions and warm thoughts.

In a cultural sense, though, can anything replace religion? Kilgore Trout pointed out his thread that asks this more directly:

Yes, I think so... but not just one thing.

For instance (and without being facetious - I mean this in all seriousness), I get a sense of awe and transcendence from auto racing that sounds a whole lot like what religious people describe.

It also provides me with a sense of community as well... as well as mutual support. So does my martial arts dojo, as well as my Toastmasters club.

I've seen people work toward good just as much when they're bonded by a shared appreciation of really fast cars as I have when they're bonded by a shared belief in some supernatural entity.

I mean, look at how you opened the thread:

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

With only a couple of exceptions, everything that you attribute to your church, I attribute to motorsports:

- I'm not sure I can say "grew up" in it, because I really got going in it when I was around 18, but I know plenty of people who have... families where grandma & grandpa, as well as Mom and Dad raced or rallied together back in the day, and the people my age who are racing now have their kids cheer them on.

- I didn't meet my wife at the track, but again: I know plenty of people who have met their significant other through racing. I remember a few years back, one of my fellow marshals got proposed to by her boyfriend (a firefighter on the emergency response team) right on the corner. The truck drove up with its lights and sirens going, then he got out, climbed over the tire wall, pulled out the ring, and got down on one knee. I've been to more than one wedding at the track.

- Racing hasn't allowed me to travel to Tanzania (yet ), but it's given me the opportunity to go all over Canada, the US and even into Mexico.

There's plenty of community and support (more than I've witnessed in my wife's church, at the very least) as well as socializing (maybe too much socializing ) and contribution to social causes. For instance, at the beginning of May, I was involved in a charity kart race that raised almost $10,000 for the pediatric lupus clinic at the Hospital for Sick Children. One event I'm involved with does a ton of work with the Easter Seals. Every October, people in my marshalling club donate their time for the big Children's Wish Foundation track day (there are a LOT of kids out there whose wish is to ride in a race car ).

I guess I have trouble seeing what religious belief has to do with community, meaning, morality, or any of the other things normally associated with religion. How does love of God foster these things in a way that love of fast cars (or literature, or music, or sport, any other human passion) doesn't?

 

[Oneatatime]

I like Churches and Cathedrals, apart from that disguisting Catholic one in Liverpool, but I intensely dislike the religious stuff that comes with it. I had to go to Church every sunday until I was old enough to say no I it bored the hell out of me having to listen to such religious nonsense, and particually how awesome God was supposed to be.

 

[ChristineES]

I attend a synagogue with Christians and atheists. Some are there to support and spend time with their families who are Jewish, some come because the service reminds them of their past, and others because, like Songbird, they identify with and enjoy the community. The only common factor is that they all have connection to Judaism.

I don't see a problem with it as long as they aren't trying to convert others.

And, as long as one is comfortable with the situation, I don’t see why it shouldn't continue. This is something my wife and talk about frequently. While she doesn't currently plan on converting, she attends services with me about once a month for several reasons. One, she supports me in my conversion and tries to understand Judaism as best she can. Two, she works for the synagogue and the knowlegde helps. Third, and probably the most important to her, she has connected with many of the members and enjoys the community.

I really enjoyed the Synagogue when I went. I felt God very strongly. Since I have Jewish ancestry, I was thinking about converting to Judaism- sometimes I still think I want to. But my belief in Jesus is a hindrance to that. I thought about Messianic Jews, but I don't know enough about Judaism to really join. And some Jews don't consider Messianic Jews true Jews (although I think they are).
Thanks for listening to this confused woman.

 

[Tarheeler]

I really enjoyed the Synagogue when I went. I felt God very strongly. Since I have Jewish ancestry, I was thinking about converting to Judaism- sometimes I still think I want to. But my belief in Jesus is a hindrance to that. I thought about Messianic Jews, but I don't know enough about Judaism to really join. And some Jews don't consider Messianic Jews true Jews (although I think they are).
Thanks for listening to this confused woman.

Yeah, it would be hard to reconcile the two. I can't think of any members in my congregation who view Messianics as anything other than Christians.

 

[Desert Snake]

I sing along, and during prayer I stand there, sometimes looking down.

I think it's fine. You may not even be in the minority in your actual beliefs at that church anyway. I doubt that there is a non-religious substitute to what you have described. Church is unique in the way that it satisfies both worldly desires and a general feeling of self rightousness.

 

[Songbird]

Do you have to have one single replacement for all of religion?

No, it's more a hypothetical question.

at[/I] the track.

- Racing hasn't allowed me to travel to Tanzania (yet ), but it's given me the opportunity to go all over Canada, the US and even into Mexico.

There's plenty of community and support (more than I've witnessed in my wife's church, at the very least) as well as socializing (maybe too much socializing ) and contribution to social causes. For instance, at the beginning of May, I was involved in a charity kart race that raised almost $10,000 for the pediatric lupus clinic at the Hospital for Sick Children. One event I'm involved with does a ton of work with the Easter Seals. Every October, people in my marshalling club donate their time for the big Children's Wish Foundation track day (there are a LOT of kids out there whose wish is to ride in a race car ).

I guess I have trouble seeing what religious belief has to do with community, meaning, morality, or any of the other things normally associated with religion. How does love of God foster these things in a way that love of fast cars (or literature, or music, or sport, any other human passion) doesn't?

I think your experiences are part of a different group than the group I'm mainly addressing. The point in my OP wasn't very clear, and though I had more personal references, I really wanted to get at the cultural influence religion has. I agree with (and enjoyed) your stories, but I think there is a group of people who need the mythological to bond them together. I don't know, maybe my premise is wrong. Maybe religiosity will subside and other separate components will fill in like you mentioned. I don't doubt that that's what many people do, but again, I'm addressing something slightly different. I think. Wait. Yes - along with addressing the group where religion encompasses everything from softball teams to choir to wedding ceremonies, I'm also asking how to address the pervasiveness of religion if you'd like to partake of these activities with your family and friends but not partake of the religious component. Maybe it seems obvious to you - I can't tell - but in my present circle and situation, it would be like separating potluck casserole ingredients.

 

[Muffled]

I have to say Muffled, i don't see any intellectual dishonesty in Songbirds thinking. The human condition is a complex one, and significance, importance, happiness and fulfilment come in many forms. I thinks its pretty honest and brave to follow ones heart and mind regarding the greater meaning of things, especially when it is at odds with a group consensus. I think the enjoyable community aspect that can be experienced represents an important part of happiness and fulfilment for the human condition, and is in and of itself as important as anything with regards to living our lives as we would like. I also think it would be nice to have such a strong community ethos, but not necessarily dependant on believing in rigid, scriptural claims that are an affront to all we know today. And to say this is how you feel is pretty damn honest if its true.

Alex

He is welcome to his opinion but that is all that it is. However to declare religious people to be intellectually dishonest and himself to be intellectually honest is nothing more than a personal bias. The facts do not support his conclusion.

 

[Muffled]

Categorize the church what way?

Maybe you thought I was saying it's intellectually dishonest for all? If so, no, I mean for me since I don't believe.

Yes. I did perceive you as saying the church was intellectually dishonest.

The other issue is more complicated. Are you saying that there could be some kind of self deception? Somehow I have my doubts about that. I can fully understand why a person would not wish to act contrary to their beliefs but even if you did, I don't think you would be convinced in your mind by your actions.

 

[Muffled]

I really enjoyed the Synagogue when I went. I felt God very strongly. Since I have Jewish ancestry, I was thinking about converting to Judaism- sometimes I still think I want to. But my belief in Jesus is a hindrance to that. I thought about Messianic Jews, but I don't know enough about Judaism to really join. And some Jews don't consider Messianic Jews true Jews (although I think they are).
Thanks for listening to this confused woman.

You could start a new church. The first Church of Messianic Mormons, lol.

 

[Songbird]

Yes. I did perceive you as saying the church was intellectually dishonest.

The other issue is more complicated. Are you saying that there could be some kind of self deception? Somehow I have my doubts about that. I can fully understand why a person would not wish to act contrary to their beliefs but even if you did, I don't think you would be convinced in your mind by your actions.

No, not self deception. Implicit support and belief in a religion demonstrated by my participation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes. I did perceive you as saying the church was intellectually dishonest.

The other issue is more complicated. Are you saying that there could be some kind of self deception? Somehow I have my doubts about that. I can fully understand why a person would not wish to act contrary to their beliefs but even if you did, I don't think you would be convinced in your mind by your actions.

You're actually saying that the church is not intellectually dishonest?...compared to what?

But the real question is whether it's o.k for Songbird to attend church without belief. You even said yourself that Songbird is most likely a "cultural" Christian, so why wouldn't that alone be enough justification for her attendance? Like I said, I doubt her position is rare at the church, perhaps even the majority of attendees are 'songbirds'.

 

[Songbird]

You're actually saying that the church is not intellectually dishonest?...compared to what?

But the real question is whether it's o.k for Songbird to attend church without belief. You even said yourself that Songbird is most likely a "cultural" Christian, so why wouldn't that alone be enough justification for her attendance? Like I said, I doubt her position is rare at the church, perhaps even the majority of attendees are 'songbirds'.

I suspect they are, which is part of my concern. I think I'm helping foster a sense of fear of "coming out".

 

[Desert Snake]

I suspect they are, which is part of my concern. I think I'm helping foster a sense of fear of "coming out".

I don't think it's cause for concern though. Hmmm... yeah I mean you might not want to voice your religious opinion though...I don't attend church, so I'm only surmising here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think your experiences are part of a different group than the group I'm mainly addressing. The point in my OP wasn't very clear, and though I had more personal references, I really wanted to get at the cultural influence religion has. I agree with (and enjoyed) your stories, but I think there is a group of people who need the mythological to bond them together.

Are there? I mean, there are things in my life that feel like "needs", but when I look around and see that most people go without them, I realize that they're probably just strong preferences on my part.

I'm wondering what you mean by "the mythological". I've got my own ideas of what the term means, and while I can see how mythology could be a common interest among some people, I don't see how it could be considered a need.

OTOH, if by "the mythological", you mean something broader than just religious stories and ideas, then I'd say that most human pursuits have their own mythology: their own history and traditions that are used to communicate ideals and to bond the group together. It's just that this sort of "mythology" isn't supernaturally-based.

I don't know, maybe my premise is wrong. Maybe religiosity will subside and other separate components will fill in like you mentioned. I don't doubt that that's what many people do, but again, I'm addressing something slightly different. I think. Wait. Yes - along with addressing the group where religion encompasses everything from softball teams to choir to wedding ceremonies, I'm also asking how to address the pervasiveness of religion if you'd like to partake of these activities with your family and friends but not partake of the religious component. Maybe it seems obvious to you - I can't tell - but in my present circle and situation, it would be like separating potluck casserole ingredients.

How much of it is just about your circle of acquaintences? If everyone you know is religious, then they're going to express this. Hang around with me, and you're going to hear about racing; hang around with them, and you're going to hear about religion.

But maybe I'm not getting what you mean by "pervasiveness". Is it that if you keep on playing on your church softball team, you'll be expected to keep going to church? Stuff like that?

But the real question is whether it's o.k for Songbird to attend church without belief.

IMO, simple attendance without belief would be (or maybe should be) okay in just about any church. I mean, if you had to be a believing Christian to go to church in the first place, then there would never be any new Christians.

... at least that seems to me to be the approach in theory. In practice, I suspect that Songbird was right when she alluded to churches tending to weed out people who lose their faith.

I suspect they are, which is part of my concern. I think I'm helping foster a sense of fear of "coming out".

Could be.

It reminds me of something I thought about a while back: I was really surprised when there was a huge outcry by Christian groups to ads by atheist groups that said "don't believe in God? You are not alone." A transit agency in Canada actually pulled the ads from their buses because they were "too controversial". I couldn't understand this attitude. I mean, the message of these ads really just amounts to saying "atheists exist", which I would say is a simple straightforward (and true) fact, so objecting to the message is really just objecting to reality.

However, when I thought about it more, I realized that some Christians (and members of other faith groups, probably) have at the core of their beliefs the idea that faith in God is necessary... that it's as required as oxygen. When people go around functioning perfectly well without this faith, the mere fact that they can do this undermines these Christians' beliefs.

When this light bulb went on for me, the reaction to those ads made a lot more sense to me.

Do you think the reaction you've received from the other parishoners you've told could come from something like this?

 

[jtartar]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

Songbird,
I feel very bad after reading your post. Social gatherings are fun, but they should not be the main reason you are part of a congregation.
In the first place, it is God's purpose to bring about a paradise on this earth. God wants everyone to love Him for the things that He does for all of us every day, Rom 2:4. Consider Rom 1:16, which tells us that the Gospel is God's means for salvation.
Because God is HOLY in every way, He does not like falsehood, especially in wortship of Him, John 4:23,23, 1Cor 10:20-22, 2Cor 6:14-18, Col 2:21-23.
In Revelation, Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion, and we are told to Get OUT of HER, Rev 18:3,4, if we do not want to share in her sins and receive her plagues, 2Thes 2:8-12.
In a very short time we are going to experience The Great Tribulation, where the earth will be in chaos. The political governments are going to try to destroy religion.
Only the ONE TRUE RELIGION, that Paul spoke of will survive that Tribulation, Eph 4:3-6, 1Cor 8:5,6, Rev 7:14.
This is why we are told that baptism is saving us, 1Pet 3:21, Matt 28:19,20.
When Jesus comes back to this earth he is going to start the Thousand Year Judgement Day, Rev 20:1-6, and during this time all of our dead loved ones will be resurrected back to earth and have the opportunity to live forever. The ones who come out of the Great Tribulation will never die at all, if they obey Jesus. We will have the great priviledge of helping to bring the eath to the partadise conditions that God originally purposed, Isa 45:18, Ps 37:29, 145:16, John 5:28,29, Rev 21:3,4.

 

[Songbird]

Songbird,
I feel very bad after reading your post. Social gatherings are fun, but they should not be the main reason you are part of a congregation.
In the first place, it is God's purpose to bring about a paradise on this earth. God wants everyone to love Him for the things that He does for all of us every day, Rom 2:4. Consider Rom 1:16, which tells us that the Gospel is God's means for salvation.
Because God is HOLY in every way, He does not like falsehood, especially in wortship of Him, John 4:23,23, 1Cor 10:20-22, 2Cor 6:14-18, Col 2:21-23.
In Revelation, Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion, and we are told to Get OUT of HER, Rev 18:3,4, if we do not want to share in her sins and receive her plagues, 2Thes 2:8-12.
In a very short time we are going to experience The Great Tribulation, where the earth will be in chaos. The political governments are going to try to destroy religion.
Only the ONE TRUE RELIGION, that Paul spoke of will survive that Tribulation, Eph 4:3-6, 1Cor 8:5,6, Rev 7:14.
This is why we are told that baptism is saving us, 1Pet 3:21, Matt 28:19,20.
When Jesus comes back to this earth he is going to start the Thousand Year Judgement Day, Rev 20:1-6, and during this time all of our dead loved ones will be resurrected back to earth and have the opportunity to live forever. The ones who come out of the Great Tribulation will never die at all, if they obey Jesus. We will have the great priviledge of helping to bring the eath to the partadise conditions that God originally purposed, Isa 45:18, Ps 37:29, 145:16, John 5:28,29, Rev 21:3,4.

Sweet.