Religious participation and nonbelief

[TheKnight]

Do you agree that specific institutions' forms are unnecessary to ritual itself? Like your example of Kaddish for a funeral.

I'm not sure what you mean...Are you asking if I think that Kaddish is unnecessary at a funeral?


The answer to that would be no. For instance, if I were not religious, I would not ceremonialize the burial of my family members or those close to me. I would simply bury them. If anything, I would do with the body that which is best for the planet. Give their organs to those that need organs and do what is most environmentally useful with the rest of the corpse.

My feelings towards the handling of the dead come from my religious beliefs. Without said beliefs, I see no reason to handle the dead in any particular manner for any reason other than the mental comfort of those who knew the deceased, which is a concern, but only to a point in my opinion.

 

[Storm]

I'm not sure what you mean...Are you asking if I think that Kaddish is unnecessary at a funeral?

If one is not Jewish. Is there something that makes Kaddish more necessary than Mass (for a Catholic)?

The answer to that would be no. For instance, if I were not religious, I would not ceremonialize the burial of my family members or those close to me. I would simply bury them. If anything, I would do with the body that which is best for the planet. Give their organs to those that need organs and do what is most environmentally useful with the rest of the corpse.

Confused. Are you going by my meaning of "affiliated with organized religion" orour agreed-upon meaning of spiritual?

My feelings towards the handling of the dead come from my religious beliefs. Without said beliefs, I see no reason to handle the dead in any particular manner for any reason other than the mental comfort of those who knew the deceased, which is a concern, but only to a point in my opinion.

But regardless of religious affiliation, people grieve. We require some sort of goodbye.

 

[Songbird]

Those are all real benefits of being part of the church community. In my view, they are all manifestations of 'love your neighbor,' and even if you never get past that you've already mastered the hardest part of Christianity. Where is the intellectual dishonesty?

No dishonesty in the part you mentioned. In some very specific and frequent teachings with which I strongly disagree, and mostly in that they are taught as indisputable facts, is the implicit dishonesty. By participating I demonstrate my support.

Makes sense, but every time people start to agree in growing numbers on shared symbols or rituals, you create a religion, or a nation, or some identifiable body that sooner or later another group of people is going to find intellectually dishonest or offensive.

I can see that happening. "Evangelical" atheists are viewed as religious by some, and atheist groups could perhaps become similar to religious groups.

 

[Songbird]

ah so the plot thickens...
how does it make you feel knowing they are uncomfortable in their place of worship?

A little sad. I often shelf my struggle with this.

gotcha...

this is really interesting and i must admit very admirable because it seems to me that you look past all the dogma and are really attracted to the connection you get with people....

Thanks. Yes. And I don't necessarily want to leave behind the structure my family, friends, and contacts are part of.

 

[TheKnight]

If one is not Jewish. Is there something that makes Kaddish more necessary than Mass (for a Catholic)?

I mean...yes and no...yes because I believe that Kaddish is done because of spiritual truths which a Catholic probably doesn't believe.

However, I recognize that Catholics have their own beliefs regarding the spiritual occurrence of death and thus have their own procedure.

Confused. Are you going by my meaning of "affiliated with organized religion" orour agreed-upon meaning of spiritual?

I mean if I were not "spiritual" in the sense that you use the word spiritual.

But regardless of religious affiliation, people grieve. We require some sort of goodbye.

We experience emotional disturbance by significant phenomena in our lives. I don't see that disturbance as being correctable by ritual, spiritual or religious, any more than I see any mental or psychological issue as one that can be solved by religion.

It is a problem that is best handled by a mental health professional and therapy.

My beliefs currently in regards to the comfort of the bereaved stem entirely from beliefs of religious (or in your terminology spiritual) significance.

 

[Songbird]

I don`t think so.

This is reminiscent of Joseph Cambell's idea of creating a new "true" myth for our culture.

Yes. I'm wondering is it possible to create the level of intensity our rituals have without an accompanying myth?

Long story short, I don`t think the masses want reality.
Anything less than a mythology that finds us enjoying eternity in a heavenly afterlife simply can`t beat the status quo.

People want the fairy tale.

I don't. And I want a rich community of people more accepting of that.

Cure my ignorance, who is Richard Robinson?

A lesser-known atheist who wrote An Atheist's Values.

 

[Storm]

I mean...yes and no...yes because I believe that Kaddish is done because of spiritual truths which a Catholic probably doesn't believe.

However, I recognize that Catholics have their own beliefs regarding the spiritual occurrence of death and thus have their own procedure.

OK. We're agreed.

I mean if I were not "spiritual" in the sense that you use the word spiritual.

In that case, your argument is nonsense, as I said quite clearly that humans are inherently spiritual creatures. Spiritual health and integrity may vary, but no one lacks spirituality, not even the staunchest anti-theist.

We experience emotional disturbance by significant phenomena in our lives. I don't see that disturbance as being correctable by ritual, spiritual or religious, any more than I see any mental or psychological issue as one that can be solved by religion.

Correctable, no. Part of the process, yes.

Continuing with the funeral as an example, to move through the grief caused by a lovd one's death, one must accept the death and say goodbye. This has nothing to do with any given religious institution; it's part of our psychological makeup. The funeral ritualizes this farewell and assists in the grieving process.

It is a problem that is best handled by a mental health professional and therapy.

While I'm a staunch advocate of mental health services, I don't think they're required in every case!

Additionally, not all rituals are sad. Coming of age is a shining example of a much-needed ritual that secular society lacks.

My beliefs currently in regards to the comfort of the bereaved stem entirely from beliefs of religious (or in your terminology spiritual) significance.

Elaborate, please?

 

[TheKnight]

In that case, your argument is nonsense, as I said quite clearly that humans are inherently spiritual creatures. Spiritual health and integrity may vary, but no one lacks spirituality, not even the staunchest anti-theist.

I would agree,

Correctable, no. Part of the process, yes.

Continuing with the funeral as an example, to move through the grief caused by a lovd one's death, one must accept the death and say goodbye. This has nothing to do with any given religious institution; it's part of our psychological makeup. The funeral ritualizes this farewell and assists in the grieving process.

Why ritualize the process? It's a waste of money really.

Then again, I wouldn't have a funeral. If someone else wants to it is their prerogative. They are free to do with their funds that which they please.

While I'm a staunch advocate of mental health services, I don't think they're required in every case!

I agree. But if a goodbye is required, as you suggest, and one if not able to properly settle that on their own. I think professional help would be better than religious ceremony (at least from a non-religious/spiritual perspective--as a religious person I would argue that it cannot be settled outside of a religious/spiritual practice).

Additionally, not all rituals are sad. Coming of age is a shining example of a much-needed ritual that secular society lacks.

Why is a ritual needed? Why not simply education?

Elaborate, please?

I believe that a person needs certain comfort in the case of bereavement because of spiritual reasons. This belief comes from the fact that religiously speaking, grief over the death of a loved one is a matter of the soul.

 

[Storm]

TheKnight, I'm taking some editing liberties with your post for the sake of efficiency.

It's a waste of money really.

Doesn't have to be. Doesn't get much cheaper than scattering ashes.

I agree. But if a goodbye is required, as you suggest, and one if not able to properly settle that on their own. I think professional help would be better than religious ceremony (at least from a non-religious/spiritual perspective--as a religious person I would argue that it cannot be settled outside of a religious/spiritual practice).

Agreed.

Why ritualize the process?

Why is a ritual needed?

It's just the way we're wired. Rituals express subconscious processes which must be honored for one's mental health.

Why not simply education?

What kind of education?

I believe that a person needs certain comfort in the case of bereavement because of spiritual reasons. This belief comes from the fact that religiously speaking, grief over the death of a loved one is a matter of the soul.

OK. But I'm sure you'd agree that that exists independently of one's religious affiliation.

 

[TheKnight]

OK. But I'm sure you'd agree that that exists independently of one's religious affiliation.

Yes of course. But if I were not religious I wouldn't believe it.

 

[Storm]

Yes of course. But if I were not religious I wouldn't believe it.

So? You would still have the same need.

 

[Willamena]

Yes. I'm wondering is it possible to create the level of intensity our rituals have without an accompanying myth?

Have you never been to Gen Con?

 

[Songbird]

Have you never been to Gen Con?

I shall attend a Gen Con and a Comic Con before I die!

 

[waitasec]

A little sad. I often shelf my struggle with this.

my guess is that, what you are doing presents a challenge to their faith.

Thanks. Yes. And I don't necessarily want to leave behind the structure my family, friends, and contacts are part of.

so i'm guessing your husband is a believer...
doesn't that put a strain on your relationship? do you have kids?

 

[Songbird]

my guess is that, what you are doing presents a challenge to their faith.

Their faith and their entire paradigm.

so i'm guessing your husband is a believer...

 

[waitasec]

Their faith and their entire paradigm.

indeed...

is he more like :yoda:
or more like :ninja:
or is he more like :snoopy:?

 

[Songbird]

indeed...

is he more like :yoda:
or more like :ninja:
or is he more like :snoopy:?

Ha! Hm...reach:

 

[Jordan Robert Wilson]

I am not surprised you like church. Simply standing in such beautiful places can inspire you. It doesn't require a belief in something to be inspired by it.

 

[TheKnight]

So? You would still have the same need.

Maybe. If I weren't religious then I was probably wrong about the need in the first place since I only see the need as a result of my religious views.

 

[waitasec]

Ha! Hm...reach:

don't tell me he's the pastor....!!!


all kidding aside, what goes trough your mind when the pastor is preaching...
i'm sure some of the stuff being said is nice but when you hear something that you do not agree with, do you have someone to talk to about it? i would say that what you are doing is displaying an act of tolerance
you're a better woman than i...
:flower: