Religious participation and nonbelief

[Penumbra]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

I've never found church helpful, though from what I've been told, there are enjoyable churches out there. I grew up going to a Catholic church. Almost all of it is ritual and repetition, and I'm not interested in ritual or repetition. The only part that wasn't a ritual was the part where the Priest would get to give his own sermon, so I liked that part the best, at least relative to the rest of it.

And I didn't believe most of the doctrine throughout my time there. I believed in god and prayer, but didn't believe in saints, Mary, importance of a crucifixion, satan, the trinity, hell, purgatory, religious exclusivity, etc. I didn't really find anything about the community to be enjoyable, with the exception of playing on the church soccer team as a child.

Secular ceremonies and rituals don't draw me in either. If it wasn't for my father making me, I would have preferred not to go to my college graduation and go through that process, and instead just have the piece of paper mailed to me.

I get all of my social needs met through interaction with friends and co-workers (both at work and after work when we play sports), and with some time spent on places like this forum. So I guess I'd recommend to those that want a secular replacement to church, to join a group where people engage in some common activity, whether it's a hobby or a sport or a game or a charity or something.

 

[ChristineES]

Makes me wonder how many non-theists are going to Church. I doubt I would feel uncomfortable around a non-theist, but I would find it a bit unusual (No offense).

 

[LuisDantas]

To make up a ceremony for something you don't actually believe is significant?

Yes, quite often in fact. Ceremony and rituals are an end in and of themselves. They create a sense of resonance and may be quite inspiring.

As for examples, I offer the singing of national hymns; many situations of passion in fiction and sports fandom; various military rituals; and, quite frankly, not a few religious rituals as well. Belief is often enough a desired outcome of those rituals. Not so often it is also something that exists there in the first place.

Belief is quite over-rated.

In all fairness, one should probably consider watching soap operas, movies and reality shows as well.

And if you do, then why say it isn't religious?

If one defines religion as something that requires belief, then it is not religious. If one defines religion in terms of inspirations and motivations (as I do, since it is so much more practical and more honest) then it probably is indeed religious.

 

[Jose Fly]

Songbird,

If you enjoy it, keep going. I mean, what are they going to do, kick you out? What kind of church kicks out non-believers? Isn't saving the lost kinda the whole point? If your friends seem uncomfortable, just remind them that by continually going, you're just making it more likely that eventually you'll be "saved".

 

[blackout]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

I have found UU to be a most welcomed,
and welcoming community.

If it weren't for UU,
I would not step foot inside a church.
I would never again attend a christian church.
Not for all the pot lucks in the world.

UU is all the good stuff,
without the guilt.

 

[Alex_G]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

Yeah, interesting thoughts and observations Songbird. You have a particularly advantageous perspective on this, allowing you access to a hybrid value between both worlds, that isn’t privy to many.

It strikes a chord with me, having had similar thoughts myself, but in no way have I had the privilege of experiencing quite the community bonding and so forth that you have. I was part of a chapel in Wales for years, but here religion is already a ghost of its former self, with everyone who attends being very old, and part of a war-time generation. Chapels, of which there are loads in Wales, having been built in a period of religious revival at the beginning of the 20th century, now stand solemn and quiet in towns and villages, usually with a pack of youths and an off-licence within spitting distance.

Not only in religious terms but I think that technology now supports a brand new way of self-satisfaction and fulfilment, with TV and the internet providing all if not more of the things one sought out in their own community. The libertarian tradition, reinforcing everyone’s individuality, somehow separates us, and at least here, today, everyone stays inside, you likely don’t know your neighbours well, and the streets are quite and empty, bar the so called dysfunctional youths, possibly yearning something lost.

The image of good community, honest relationships, apprenticeships, mentors, guilds and social support all seem to be lacking, or at least if present, a token to what they could be. A side effect of the multifactorial social world of today, even with all of the benefits and advances made.

Only some hold on to such things, like yourself via religion, and to a degree one could argue sport, or music fans with group identity, are to some degree fighting for/expressing this group bonding fulfilment.

Anyways, I’m not sure of what could replace it for you; I think that you have quite a strong tie to the lifestyle, having grown up with it. The sacrifice is a philosophical one, but as we hear too often, nothing is free in this world…unless you have coupons of course. You might find that in looking for your religious community elsewhere, you’d find all to be a bit different, and simply imitations that fall short of the very thing you left to search for.

I was in a bookshop the other day, and discovered that it’s run via a co-operative system. In a way, a small community that lived in a state of real neighbourhood co-operative could create the incentive and common interest that could bring people closer together. Might be something to ponder/research...or maybe just go watch some tv instead

Alex

 

[Muffled]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

I think you are being totally intellectually dishonest when you categorize the church that way as though it were fact when it is only your opinion and a false one at that.

I do not favor including non Christians in membership or leadership. There are certainly things that can be done like make coffee, clean up, or as you mentioned play an instrument. Perhaps you could even sing in the choir although there is a down side to that.

If people conceived of you as a Christian previously, there is a tendency to attempt retrieval since a Christian is never completely lost just wandered away for a while so participation in bible study might make you a target. My guess is that you never were one accept culturally. I suppose the question would be whether you have an antagonistic approach to discussion that would be considered disruptive. There are honest questions and then there is baiting.

 

[Muffled]

You like church? Weirdo.

I think people who don't like church are weird. It just goes to show that normality isn't based on objectivity but subjectivity.

 

[Muffled]

Songbird, you might want to explore your local UU congregations. Sounds like they'd provide what you're looking for and be happy to have you.

UU would provide the trappings of a church without much religiosity. One could almost think of them as intellectually honest in the sense that they appear to be willing to look at different perspectives. However in the end like atheists and agnostics they have beliefs that are not intellectually supportable that they will defend.

 

[Alex_G]

I have to say Muffled, i don't see any intellectual dishonesty in Songbirds thinking. The human condition is a complex one, and significance, importance, happiness and fulfilment come in many forms. I thinks its pretty honest and brave to follow ones heart and mind regarding the greater meaning of things, especially when it is at odds with a group consensus. I think the enjoyable community aspect that can be experienced represents an important part of happiness and fulfilment for the human condition, and is in and of itself as important as anything with regards to living our lives as we would like. I also think it would be nice to have such a strong community ethos, but not necessarily dependant on believing in rigid, scriptural claims that are an affront to all we know today. And to say this is how you feel is pretty damn honest if its true.

Alex

 

[Tarheeler]

Makes me wonder how many non-theists are going to Church. I doubt I would feel uncomfortable around a non-theist, but I would find it a bit unusual (No offense).

I attend a synagogue with Christians and atheists. Some are there to support and spend time with their families who are Jewish, some come because the service reminds them of their past, and others because, like Songbird, they identify with and enjoy the community. The only common factor is that they all have connection to Judaism.

I don't see a problem with it as long as they aren't trying to convert others.

And, as long as one is comfortable with the situation, I don’t see why it shouldn't continue. This is something my wife and talk about frequently. While she doesn't currently plan on converting, she attends services with me about once a month for several reasons. One, she supports me in my conversion and tries to understand Judaism as best she can. Two, she works for the synagogue and the knowlegde helps. Third, and probably the most important to her, she has connected with many of the members and enjoys the community.

 

[Songbird]

I think you are being totally intellectually dishonest when you categorize the church that way as though it were fact when it is only your opinion and a false one at that.

Categorize the church what way?

Maybe you thought I was saying it's intellectually dishonest for all? If so, no, I mean for me since I don't believe.

 

[lunamoth]

No dishonesty in the part you mentioned. In some very specific and frequent teachings with which I strongly disagree, and mostly in that they are taught as indisputable facts, is the implicit dishonesty. By participating I demonstrate my support.

In that case, if it were me, I would not attend if I could not be honest about it with myself and others. However, as I mentioned in my other post, I think that if you start to be oPenly honest about this with your community that you can find a way to embrace the things you find of value in your church without compromising your integrity.

I would also recommend UU to you if you end up leaving.

Best wishes in this.



I can see that happening. "Evangelical" atheists are viewed as religious by some, and atheist groups could perhaps become similar to religious groups.[/QUOTE]

 

[bain-druie]

Don't delete! I appreciated it.

:sorry1: ...didn't see that in time. Sheesh, I keep tripping over myself on this thread! lol

 

[Songbird]

:sorry1: ...didn't see that in time. Sheesh, I keep tripping over myself on this thread! lol

Trip away, mi'lady.

 

[Songbird]

Thank you for the suggestions and warm thoughts.

In a cultural sense, though, can anything replace religion? Kilgore Trout pointed out his thread that asks this more directly:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/89206-replacing-removing-god-religion.html

 

[linwood]

I don't. And I want a rich community of people more accepting of that.

Then perhaps I`m wrong, I`d be happy to be wrong in this case.

A lesser-known atheist who wrote An Atheist's Values.

Thank you, the quote you left seemed familiar.
I`ll check him out.

 

[sojourner]

Only a handful of people know my position, and they feel awkward around me. If anyone else knows, they haven't told me. And yeah, they hope I'll come back to Christianity.

The organist I know is at a different church. I don't know if they're aware of his nonbelief.

Some atheists I know are better Christians than a lot of Christians I know...
You'd be very welcome in our church, although, in order to hold a leadership position, you'd have to be a baptized member.

 

[Songbird]

Then perhaps I`m wrong, I`d be happy to be wrong in this case.

Oh, I think you're right, sadly.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I’m not a Christian, but I like church. I like the music, the socializing, the social causes, the smorgasbord of activities to choose from, the potlucks, the community, the network of support. It’s where I grew up, met my husband, and commemorated events. It’s where I had the platform to perform from an early age, and it’s the vehicle that led to spending a summer in Tanzania when I was 18.

I’m not alone. I’ve met people with a range of beliefs who attend churches for similar reasons. One atheist I know is his congregation's organist. The enjoyment and fulfillment he derives from church surpasses why he’d participate in an establishment based on a philosophy he doesn’t adhere to.

It would be nice to join a community that is for me more intellectually honest. But there is frankly nothing like a religious group. There is nothing else that competes with the social offerings, the unifying communal effect evoked by intense belief, or the level of support, at least to this degree. There are many exceptions, but I’m addressing the majority.

Richard Robinson wrote in 1975 that “we need to create and spread symbols and procedures that will confirm our intentions without involving us in intellectual dishonesty.”

Any ideas how to go about doing that? Is it possible to replace religion?

And how do you feel about a nonbeliever joining or participating in your church, synagogue, mosque, etc.? What about in a leadership role?

I ask because when I told a few people from my church about my deconversion a few years ago, they were grief-stricken and shocked. One suggested I lay low, not participate in Bible studies or discussions. I got the impression Christianity is an army that kills its wounded. Got doubts? Here’s the door. But that’s another discussion.

I’d like to hear your thoughts. It’s good sometimes to crack open the crunchy shell and let out the gooey inside.

Get an Agenda, don't get conflicted by interpretations of truth. To research the baseline for the YTH, I had to willfully misinterpret scripture (1 John 4:4) in order to share in fellowship. And I liked church, too... although I don't think I could go to another Christian service.