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Report reveals the truth behind the international dupe on Palestinian poverty.

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
My point was that there is a difference between opposing suffering and opposing self-determination. I can oppose one (on both sides) while supporting the other (on both sides).

You, on the other hand, seem to oppose suffering, if its Palestinians and justify suffering if its Jews. And oppose self-determination if its Jews and support self-determination if its Palestinian. Again, how is this NOT hypocritical?

The Jews already have self determination, the Palestinians do not, I support self determination for the Jews only if they are willing to give the same to the Palestinians, and that means a two state solution, both sides given their land with no contingencies. If Israel is not willing to give justice to the Palestinians they don't deserve dominion of the land they live in IMHO.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
For the last 25 years or so I have been trying to understand the situation between Israel and the Palestinians. One of the biggest barriers is the near absence of unbiased reports.
Both groups, or at least the leaders of both groups, are composed entirely of people with the mentality of spoiled children who have proven that neither side deserved self-determination or self-rule, at the very least until they stop smearing their own **** on the walls.
 
Lyndon - Why do you refuse to defend your staements. Surely if you believe something there must be a basis to that belief?

You said Israelis are Nazis. What is your basis for that statement? What do you consider "acting like Nazi's"? Please be specific. I have a few suggestions: 1. forbidding Jews from owning property (the PA does this, as does Jordan and a number of other Arab Muslim countries). 2. forbidding Jews from living within their borders. (the PA does this, as does Jordan, KSA, and a number of other Arab Muslim countries 3. destroying Jewish synagogues and holy places (the PA does this, Jordan did it, as do a number of other Arab Muslim countries). I have a lot more, but lets see what you come up with. O.K.?

Here is a little article which, I think, explains your attitude and beliefs. Let me know if I am correct.

Israel – the world’s mistake

. . .

Have you ever wondered why Israel gets treated differently to every other country in the world? It’s not double standards by the way – it’s triple standards.

There’s Israel: Everything they do is wrong.

There’s the Arab world: Everything they do is ignored.

There’s the West: Everything they do is right.

But why is that? What is so different about Israel, compared to other countries?

For much of the world, the story goes like this: Israel was created in 1948, as a result of the Holocaust, and by pushing out the indigenous people of the country of Palestine. That is what they believe, irrespective of what the truth is. And this is the story the Palestinian merchants of fiction peddle, despite the fact that in 1948 the Arabs of the area were not known as Palestinians.
. . .

The reality is that the world doesn’t like to see a strong Israel, because they don’t like to see Jews with too much power. For some reason, they have a problem with Jews defending themselves too vigorously. Perhaps it’s because they had been the whipping boys for so long that the sudden change in fortunes was a bit too jarring to accept. When this was combined with the Arab fairy tales of how everything was some kind of nirvana before the Jews came along, the attitude of much of the world became sealed.

So this combination of influences has formulated an opinion that Israel is a mistake. The Arabs were living wonderfully and harmoniously in the state of Palestine before the evil European Jews, with no connection to the land, came along to take it away. And it was only given to them because of the Holocaust, which much of the Arab world denies happened anyway or at least thinks it was grossly exaggerated, including the “moderate” leader, Abbas.

The practical effect of this is that Israel can do no right, because it doesn’t deserve to be there anyway. It’s like if a criminal broke into your house and beat up your wife or husband – and you, in turn, defended your family against that criminal by hitting him. No one is going to blame you, right?

And that is how Israel is seen – as that criminal.

Whatever Israel does, it will always be seen as wrong. If they defend themselves, they’ll say: Well, shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

If an Arab deliberately steers his car into innocent bystanders, they’ll say: Well, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

If they argue against world bias, they’ll say: Well, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

If they ask the world, why are you only condemning us and no one else, the response will be: Well, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

If they get condemned for building houses in areas that are Jewish anyway, the response will be: Well, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

Now, they may not say this publically, but it is a thought that occupies their minds and formulates their policy.

Throughout history the world has had a bias against Jews – it’s the reason that Israel, as the national symbol of the Jews, is always treated differently. It’s the reason that somehow countries like Saudi Arabia, which beheads peoples as a matter of routine, and has no human rights to speak of, is treated with respect, while Israel is treated with disdain.
. . .
And as far as the greater world goes, the legitimacy of Israel is something that many are still grappling with – 66 years after the state was formed. The Jewish connection to the land for the last four thousand years is simply ignored.

In international politics, truth seldom plays a role. What formulates policy is not history, or facts, or morality. Instead, it is myth, fairy tales and whoever has the most enticing catch phrases.

And at the moment, because of the massive bias against the Jews, it is the Palestinian viewpoint that is the most engaging.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-the-worlds-mistake/









 
The Jews already have self determination, the Palestinians do not, I support self determination for the Jews only if they are willing to give the same to the Palestinians, and that means a two state solution, both sides given their land with no contingencies. If Israel is not willing to give justice to the Palestinians they don't deserve dominion of the land they live in IMHO.

Lyndon
The problem with your statement is 1. Arab Palestinians do have self determination. The Arab Palestinians in Jordan have a fully operative state. The Arab Palestinians in Gaza have complete autonomy and for all intents and purposes a fully operative state. The Arab Palestinians in the PA are autonomous and self governing and say that they have a fully operative state. 2. Israel accepts the two state solution, has made offers based on a two state solution and those offers have been declined. The Palestinians do not believe in a two state solution and have very publicly said so and have publicly and repeatedly rejected the idea of two states for two peoples.

Facts matter. Pay attention to them
 
Lyndon. Facts are facts. You can pretend otherwise, but that does not change anything. Your refusal to support your statements is noted
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
For reference, from dictionary.revolt.org.....
Fact:
Noun - An opinion expressed with great & often unwarranted confidence.
 
Revoltingest - You could look up the facts. It is not hard. It is made even easier since I usually post sources, which often post sources. Try a little more research and a little less snark. It is good for the soul.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
We've looked up the facts, we just don't trust or accept your sources.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Jews already have self determination, the Palestinians do not...
The Palestinians do, so what makes you believe they don't? When you make absurd posts like the above, why don't you actually post some evidence to support your position, and if you can't find any, then maybe you might finally realize that you're wrong.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You can't have self determination without a country, what joke, you think we are all gullible goyim that can just swallow all the garbage you post online.
Again, no links nor quotes-- just sheer nonsense. Do you actually think that the Israelis control Hamas? Abbas? Why not Google both and actually find out for yourself, which you could easily do in a few minutes, and then post your evidence?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Palestinians denied the right to self determination; If you do a search for "do Palestinians have self determination" you'll see that only right wing Zionist sources claim they do.

http://www.badil.org/component/k2/item/1690-art2.html
You gotta be kidding. You post a Palestinian link from 2004 and actually "think" this applies today and is somehow unbiased?

And the fact that Hamas launched thousands of rockets/missiles against Israel just last year doesn't tell you something? If the Palestinians in Gaza don't have "self-determination", then how in the world were they able to make, import, store, and launch all those projectiles, Lyndon? That doesn't strike you as being rather illogical?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
No more biased than your sources. Do you actually think anything has gotten better for the Palestinians since the article was written in 2004. Do you think you're better than the Palestinians, that their articles about their people and their plight are of no importance because they don't come from Zionists, who are better and more honest than Palestinians???.
 

Shusha

Member
The Jews already have self determination, the Palestinians do not, I support self determination for the Jews only if they are willing to give the same to the Palestinians, and that means a two state solution, both sides given their land with no contingencies. If Israel is not willing to give justice to the Palestinians they don't deserve dominion of the land they live in IMHO.

Lyndon,
Our conversation began with you discussing how you oppose Zionism and now you say that you support self-determination for the Jews. If the second statement is true then you do NOT oppose Zionism. This seems, to me, to demonstrate a shallow understanding of the complexities of the conflict and the adoption of whatever stance appears to be the correct one in the moment, with no real thought to fully understanding the concepts, but only parroting narratives of the one side.

So let's discuss some basic concepts, if you are willing.

1. We now appear to agree that both sides have a right to self-determination. I happen to believe that self-determination for a self-identifying ethnic or cultural group is an inherent and basic human right, inalienable and unconditional. Would you say you agree or disagree with this statement? Or would you say that self-determination should be conditional and if so, under which conditions? Please consider a number of different groups when making your decision and not just Jews and Palestinians, for example: Tibetans, Catalans, Kurds, Cypriots, First Nations peoples of Canada, US and Australia, etc.

2. The Palestinian people living in Areas A and B and in Gaza have been self-governing for a decade or longer. They have self-determination in all practical ways. Israelis (some would say Jews as the Palestinian Arabs don't tend to make a distinction) are not permitted entrance to these areas. The transfer of power from one national governing body to another does, however, entail some practical considerations: borders, security, resources agreements, etc. So, what specific practical steps you think that both Israel and Palestinians should take to allow this transfer of power and develop the two State solution? I asked you elsewhere why the Palestinians did not accept the offer which would have given them 91% of the territory they asked for, East Jerusalem and shared control over the Mount. You said that Abbas turned it down because it was unacceptable. WHY was it unacceptable?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No more biased than your sources. Do you actually think anything has gotten better for the Palestinians since the article was written in 2004. Do you think you're better than the Palestinians, that their articles about their people and their plight are of no importance because they don't come from Zionists, who are better and more honest than Palestinians???.
Well, read here for yourself:

The Hamas government of 2012 was the second Palestinian Hamas-dominated government, ruling over the Gaza Strip, since the split of the Palestinian National Authority in 2007. It was announced on early September 2012. The reshuffle of the previous government was approved by Gaza-based Hamas MPs from the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) or parliament...

Israel states that it does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip and thus the Gaza Strip is no longer subject to the former military occupation. Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January 2008: "Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement." In spite of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, the Hamas Government in Gaza considers Gaza as occupied territory.
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Therefore, you should be able to actually see for yourself why a 2004 source no longer applies, plus you are being completely hypocritical to criticize RJS' sources as being biased when you post a Palestinian source written before the Israeli withdrawal from the GS.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Open your eyes, your people are oppressing the Palestinians, if they don't stop, they have no right to their own self determination, that is my opinion.
 

Shusha

Member
Open your eyes, your people are oppressing the Palestinians, if they don't stop, they have no right to their own self determination, that is my opinion.

You are just parroting one-sided narratives again. Instead of exploring the concepts. The US is oppressing First Nations peoples, do you think the US no longer has a right to national self-determination? China is oppressing Tibetans, do you think China has lost the right to self-determination? Spain is oppressing the Catalans, do you think Spain should be removed from the UN? Turkey? Canada? Australia? ALL of these countries have no right to their own self-determination?

And HOW, exactly, is Israel oppressing the Palestinians?
 
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