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Republican House Whip Shot!

Grumpuss

Active Member
Obviously, yes. But what are the charges? Maybe giving a job to someone so he would drop out of a race (an allegation that was withdrawn by that October,) versus failure to separate personal international business and finances with the office of the presidency (which actually is illegal).
You check into the ol' Clinton Foundation and get back to me when it's been given a clean bill of health.

Also, what "failure" are you referencing? Trump divested himself, unless you're aware of some kind of secret investigation the rest of us aren't. This is just more the imagined fake law-breaking, like not letting people see his taxes. But hey- stamp your feet all you want.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The Clinton Foundation does not absolve Trump of his mistakes - and don't fall into the pitfall of thinking that I support Clinton just because I don't support Trump.

As to the Trump Foundation, back in '16, Trump said that he would dissolve the Foundation to avoid “even the appearance of any conflict with [his] role as President”. So far, it's not dissolved, and Trump has not stepped down as it's chairman. This is a conflict, as it legally means that he - as president - is violating the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution, which states that "No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State."
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
You check into the ol' Clinton Foundation and get back to me when it's been given a clean bill of health.
You realize russians helped spread propaganda about the Clinton Foundation right? When hasn't the foundation had a clean bill of health?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Indeed. Odds are Operation Downfall would've taken 1-3 years. And since the Allies enjoyed full air supremacy at that point, we would dropped more incendiary and nuclear bombs.

It was really only a matter of how fervent Japan was in their readiness to die. At that point in 1945, they cared more about what might happen to the emperor, than how many Japanese peasants might be killed in the resistance. The atomic bomb proved we could wiped out whole cities with a single aircraft & weapon. It was a game-changer, and Truman gambled well.

Yes, Truman was a Statesman for certain. I have listened to his recorded speech several times, and knowing what we know now, it was quite impressive.

I do not think that General Groves would have lied to Truman about how many of these experimental devices we had ready to go. I do think Truman knew when he gave those speeches.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
So what's the problem with the Clinton Foundation?
A massive source of soft money from dubious sources.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/02/economist-explains-4

It is a thoroughly non-transparent organization that has been accused numerous times of being part of Mrs. Clinton's quid-pro-quo empire. It has been investigated by the FBI and NYPD for influence peddling.



Yes, Truman was a Statesman for certain. I have listened to his recorded speech several times, and knowing what we know now, it was quite impressive.

I do not think that General Groves would have lied to Truman about how many of these experimental devices we had ready to go. I do think Truman knew when he gave those speeches.
I dunno. Pretty sure the U.S. would've had the time to build a few more by 1947, if the Japanese refused to surrender, regardless.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I dunno. Pretty sure the U.S. would've had the time to build a few more by 1947, if the Japanese refused to surrender, regardless.

Months away, at the time of Truman's speeches. It would have been embarrassing if Japan's leadership had called Truman's bluff.

But likely the end result would have been the same in the end. Germany had already surrendered; the war in Europe was done. Once news had really sunk in that Japan was alone in the world, it's likely they'd have surrendered.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
A massive source of soft money from dubious sources.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/02/economist-explains-4

It is a thoroughly non-transparent organization that has been accused numerous times of being part of Mrs. Clinton's quid-pro-quo empire. It has been investigated by the FBI and NYPD for influence peddling.

Investigated and exonerated. Some a888hole's blog is meaningless, and utterly void as "proof"-- I don't even have to click on the link.

If you had REAL facts? You would have linked to newspaper accounts, instead of an opinion piece.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
Months away, at the time of Truman's speeches. It would have been embarrassing if Japan's leadership had called Truman's bluff.
Think so? I think it still would've involved a ton of dead Japanese zealots.

But likely the end result would have been the same in the end. Germany had already surrendered; the war in Europe was done. Once news had really sunk in that Japan was alone in the world, it's likely they'd have surrendered.
Yep.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
Investigated and exonerated. Some a888hole's blog is meaningless, and utterly void as "proof"-- I don't even have to click on the link.

If you had REAL facts? You would have linked to newspaper accounts, instead of an opinion piece.
Sigh. I was just hoping for brevity.

Clinton Foundation - Wikipedia
Judge orders Clinton Foundation racketeering case to trial
Senate Committee Launches New Clinton Corruption Investigation
Bob Woodward on Clinton Foundation: "It Is Corrupt" And Clinton Didn't Answer The Questions

Etc.

Don't worry. I'm fully aware that Donald Trump did all sorts of unsavory, fraudulent things too. Just pointing out that Hillary is far from being good & innocent and yes, her public foundation / slush-fund was investigated.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
A massive source of soft money from dubious sources.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/02/economist-explains-4

It is a thoroughly non-transparent organization that has been accused numerous times of being part of Mrs. Clinton's quid-pro-quo empire. It has been investigated by the FBI and NYPD for influence peddling.
So nothing? Seems to already have a clean bill of health. There was a lot of fake news about the foundation before the election. Maybe that's what you're referring to?

There's a lot of websites where you can fact check the clinton foundation. Which is good because the majority of things said about the foundation weren't true. There's people out there in GOP media that still lie about the foundation. (Clinton and russian uranium)

clinton foundation Archives | Snopes.com
 
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james bond

Well-Known Member
I made a point of this before.

If you want to argue that an inanimate object can be a solution, then the same inanimate object can be the problem depending on the arbitrary usage. Statistics will prove that this inanimate object kills more than it does save lives.

Just because guns are part of our culture does not mean that cannot change. Slavery used to be part of culture. Cultures change and evolve.

There is limited freedom to own guns. There are already some laws that restrict people from owning guns. How that's enforced is another subject.

I'm not against gun ownership but I'm on the other end of your control scale. I feel we are way to relaxed with gun ownership. The automobile industry does more to control proper ownership and usage.
It does this with training, testing, licensing, insurance, registration and enforcement. The ratio of automobile usage per death is much lower than compared to gun usage per death.

I will include links from two biased sources on both ends of the spectrum:

Gun Deaths Compared to Motor Vehicle Deaths

NRA-ILA | Guns vs. Cars Comparison is No Accident

Now, if we want to compare accidental deaths, then cars win by roughly 40% which is a large gap.

However, if we want to compare All deaths, then firearms more than makes up that 40%.

Hey, I'm fine if we find a rational way to reduce that number to only accidental deaths.

Other industries do not have this problem with such a large gap in self inflicted harm versus harming of others as does the gun industry.

>>If you want to argue that an inanimate object can be a solution, then the same inanimate object can be the problem depending on the arbitrary usage. Statistics will prove that this inanimate object kills more than it does save lives.<<

:facepalm: Isn't that my line? Obviously, good people who have guns, such as in CCW, are the solution. I have to go to the DMV for my registration and other matters. It is a no gun zone and one of the state offices without an armed guard. Why do they have armed guards in other State buildings and none at the DMV? It's stupid to be put in danger this way. The last time, the guard helped me to jumpstart my car. After thanking him, I told him there were safer jobs and recommended another security company which carry firearms. The issue is the Second Amendment and not trusting Democrats to protect the good citizens of this country instead of just the rich. It's better to protect oneself from the government itself.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
The reason a lot of people carry guns for protection is because there's a lot of guns everywhere. Guns don't die, they continue being passed around generation after generation. Some even sell them to strangers for cash.
America didn't use to have this problem, there's so many guns now that people are afraid to leave the home without one. People will buy more and more and more. Hence increasing the problem.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
America didn't use to have this problem, there's so many guns now that people are afraid to leave the home without one. People will buy more and more and more. Hence increasing the problem.

The world is different than it was say 50 years ago.
To your point "people are afraid to leave the home without one". Do you carry a firearm? Do you own a firearm? Do you know why people buy firearms? Are you afraid to leave home?
Can you explain why the violent crime rate has gone down yet the number of firearms has increased. It would seem that in your argument that if the number of firearms go up the rate of violent crimes would also go up. Have an explanation why this is not the case?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Can you explain why the violent crime rate has gone down yet the number of firearms has increased. It would seem that in your argument that if the number of firearms go up the rate of violent crimes would also go up. Have an explanation why this is not the case?

Are you seriously suggesting correlation proves causation, esmith?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When dealing with crime rates, there are many varying factors that can have an effect. If the increase in the number of guns were to be a major factor in the falling of our violent crime rate, then certainly the police departments and the FBI would all be on-board with having more guns available to be in the hands of the general public-- but they don't, with some exceptions. This is why many police departments have gun buy-back programs.

They well know that a greater proliferation of guns actually increases the chances of intentional or accidental use that may harm or kill innocent people, plus the supposed advantage of having so many people carrying guns for protection actually does not work out well at all in so many cases. Matter of fact, it sometimes complicates police actions when trying to determine who's the bad guy and who's the good guy if a shooting occurs. By-standers are sometimes hit in the process as most people do not have police training on how to handle most of these situations.

And comparative studies very clearly show that modern industrialized countries that have strict gun-control laws have several times lower violent crime rates as compared to us in the States.

If one is concerned about their well-being, as they should, imo, then we need to remember that "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure", and there are plenty of things that a person can do to help prevent being a victim without resorting to carry guns.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
>>If you want to argue that an inanimate object can be a solution, then the same inanimate object can be the problem depending on the arbitrary usage. Statistics will prove that this inanimate object kills more than it does save lives.<<

:facepalm: Isn't that my line? Obviously, good people who have guns, such as in CCW, are the solution. I have to go to the DMV for my registration and other matters. It is a no gun zone and one of the state offices without an armed guard. Why do they have armed guards in other State buildings and none at the DMV? It's stupid to be put in danger this way. The last time, the guard helped me to jumpstart my car. After thanking him, I told him there were safer jobs and recommended another security company which carry firearms. The issue is the Second Amendment and not trusting Democrats to protect the good citizens of this country instead of just the rich. It's better to protect oneself from the government itself.

We're in agreement that "good" people can own guns.

By logic, that does not include ALL people. So the second amendment is flawed and imprecise to govern this. Because, the government could be "good" but "bad" people who opposes a "good" government could still own guns under such guidance.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I don't see Trump directly attacking opposition officials. He does controversial things like try a travel ban or refuse to release his tax returns. He's not calling for anyone to be impeached.

His controversial ideas like his multiple failed travel bans, joining Syria and Nicaragua in abandoning the rest of the world and leaving the Paris Accord, axing TPP, allowing federal contractors to discriminate against the LGBT community, cutting spending on after-school programs, cutting spending on medical research, etc. are not what I'm talking about at all. Sure, I completely disagree with all of these moves, but he was elected president on these points, and he was very upfront about his plans to do these things.


My concern is his constant bullying, personal insults, spreading of "fake news" (conspiracy theories like the one regarding Ted Cruz's father or his false claims about the Mayor of London's comments), consistent dishonesty (including his promise to release his tax returns and countless others), unsubstantiated criminal allegations against President Obama, unsubstantiated claims about 5 million people voting illegally for Hillary Clinton, personal attacks on FBI Director Comey ("nutjob" comment), and I could go on and on.


In short, his political agenda is going to be something I disagree with for the most part. No surprise there, and there is nothing wrong with that. My concern is with his disregard for professionalism, decency, and his inability to understand that you get what you give. Plus, the cabinet meeting the other day was just too much for me to take ... which shows that he has a very fragile ego and thin skin, requiring praise from his base and "employees" to prop up.


Rather snap judgment, don't you think? This was a person who worked for Bernie Sanders's campaign, mere months ago. Do you think Senator Sanders would hire a worker who was schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill, to work on his campaign?

He didn't "hire" him. He was a mere volunteer on the campaign. There is practically no background check that is done for volunteers on a campaign. I'm sure the standard is not that high for any campaign, so it is absurd to use that as evidence for his mental capacity.


Trump didn't create this shooter. Dangerous left-wing ideology did. Democrats are the partial stewards of such ideology. I would say the same thing about either party.

There is dangerous ideology, fake conspiracies, and hatred coming out of both sides equally. Obviously, every representative should stop this dangerous rhetoric, Republican and Democrat alike. But, we all have to start uniting and being more respectful, including both of us.


My point, though, is that Trump is in a unique position to lead by example and change his ways. He should stop talking about the Russia investigation which, because of his own actions and words, he is now under investigation personally. The investigation is ongoing and will continue for another year, most likely. Federal investigations always take a long time, so this should not be a surprise. And, no one is saying that he didn't win the election. The question is ONLY whether anyone in the Trump campaign knew of, worked with, or approved of what Russia was doing. And, whether Trump himself tried to use his power/influence to try to stop the investigation in any way shape or form.


He must stop complaining about the media. He is free to rebut any story that comes out with evidence or a reasoned argument. But, just throwing out the claim of "fake news" is extremely divisive and doesn't do any good. If a story is "fake", it should be easy for him to show why he thinks it is fake.


So... it doesn't take two to tango for you. Forgive me, but I think you are showing evidence of bias.

It certainly takes two. But, as I said, Trump is in a unique position to start the conversation, as he is the President and can be the "bigger man" by stepping up and reaching out to the left. In return, I would hope that the left would do the same.


1. And represents only the executive branch. He has a responsibility as you say, but is not the only elected official that needs to lead by example.

2. The members of the Left freely reciprocate and put out false claims, unsubstantiated facts and attempts to smear both Trump and the Republicans (e.g. Russian conspiracy).

3. Members of the Democrat Party have dropped profanities on the House and Senate floor, which their supporters on social media cheer.

4. Democrats and other liberals lie constantly, and have the support of the Mainstream Media to repeat unsubstantiated claims.

5. It takes two sides to come together. Obama and the 2009-2017 Congresses were incredibly divisive and consistently failed to compromise, welcoming polarizing views. Trump appears to continue the trend on his end, but I'm not going to forget the Legislature's role this time, as you apparently have.

1. I agree, but he is the one driving the Russia investigation, which, in turn, frustrates him and causes him to lash out with stupid tweets. If he just shut up about the investigation and let Mueller do his job, the story would lose people’s interest, news stations would see ratings drop (they are unbelievably high right now because people are glued to the investigation), and they would stop covering it non-stop. It is all up to Trump to stop tweeting about it, though. Every time he tweets about it, interest is renewed.

2. I hear this a lot, but I have yet to get clear examples of what is meant by this. The Russian Investigation is absolutely, 100% a real thing. They are, in fact, being investigated and Trump is 100% now under investigation for obstruction. But, that in no way means he is guilty. He, obviously, continually shoots himself in the foot when he comments about it, making fun of Mueller, Congress, courts, Democrats, and, of course, Hillary Clinton who is not even politically active anymore. So, what do you mean by this. I don’t hear anyone (except for crazies like Rachel Maddow and the like) who claim that there is a Russian conspiracy. They merely point out that there is an investigation, there is a lot of smoke (which there absolutely is … but, I think it is due to Trump’s ignorance and lack of political savvy, which is not a crime), and it is important to get to the bottom of it. Russia interfered with our election. They didn’t affect the outcome of the election, imho, but it is still extremely important to figure out whether anyone in the Trump campaign knew what was going on.

3. Can you provide some examples of this? Are you saying that Republicans do not do this? Conservatives on social media can be just as ugly as liberals. So, you aren’t contending this is one sided, are you? Just think about Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.

4. Trump is the president and he has made a business out of throwing out ludicrous, unsubstantiated claims. And, it seems to work with his base. You cannot expect anyone to stop throwing out unsubstantiated claims until Trump, himself, stops. And, I think it is obvious that Trump does this far more than the mainstream media, Democratic congressmen, and the like. People like Maddow, Limbaugh, and Hannity are the fringe loonies, so I don’t count them. But, Limbaugh and Hannity have been doing this for decades.

5. The country has never been this divided. And, I often hear about how Obama divided the country. Can you point to some examples of speeches, tweets, or any other writing put out by Obama that was objectively divisive like the stuff that Trump is putting out almost daily. I mean, he constantly points the fingers at anyone who criticizes him, then he has a cabinet meeting where everyone just kisses his @$$. It doesn’t get any worse than that, imho.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Are you seriously suggesting correlation proves causation, esmith?
My I had to look up the meaning of a word.
No I'm asking a question and that question is if the number of firearms increase should that affect the number of violent crimes?
 
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