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Republican House Whip Shot!

leibowde84

Veteran Member
At this moment, everyone in opposition to Trump and the Republican Party should reexamine their level of vitriol and see if perhaps their rhetoric went a bit too far and contributed to inciting violence against our elected officials. Saying things like, "Well this is because Trump..."
This is completely hypocritical of you, though. You are complaining that I am justifying the violence by blaming it on Trump. Then you do the same thing by blaming Democrats for their rhetoric. By the way, I do not blame Trump for the attack. That was completely the perpetrator's fault, who obviously had mental problems.

We can disagree about the cause of the current divisiveness. And, we can disagree about who's responsibility it is to change their behavior in order to prevent further divisiveness. But, it is unfair for you to say that it is not OK to blame Trump and then turn around and blame Democrats.

That being said, here is why I think Trump is the one who must make a change for progress to be made in regards to the divisiveness present throughout the US.

1. He is the commander in chief. He is the leader of the free world, and he has a responsibility to lead by example.
2. He constantly "trolls" by putting out false claims and unsubstantiated "facts" in an attempt to upset the left.
3. He uses personal insults and other bullying techniques in an effort to strong arm (doesn't seem to be working though ... although, it did during the campaign)
4. He and his people lie constantly, which builds animosity because his supporters don't seem to care.
5. This is an opportunity to build unity by reaching out to the left. I hope he does the right thing and presents legislation that Democrats can get behind. The infrastructure plan is a great way to do it. Also, he should push for changes to health care that the Democrats can accept without committing political suicide.

There are more, but we can start here.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
Your insinuation here is a problem. We cannot equate political dissidence, or disapproval of Trump, with crazy, violent gunmen.
Except when such realms converge. This guy worked for Bernie Sanders's campaign. He lived and breathed public dissidence and disapproval of Trump. So then he cased a YMCA so that he could stalk and murder Republicans. He was a methodical, obsessed activist who went too far. Calling him "crazy" sounds dismissive, in the context provided.

The fact remains that the vast majority of liberals are non-violent. Disapproval of Trump does not appear to be an indicator for becoming a wanna-be murderer. This guy was an extreme outlier.
Double standard. Or so you insinuateThe fact remains also that the vast majority of conservatives are non-violent. Disapproval of Trump is far more vitriolic, nasty and violent than any condemnation of Barack Obama or Bill Clinton.

I will not stand for such an insinuation, because it may lead to the suppression of liberals or the vocal condemnation of Trump.
Not a bet I'd like to make, but I'm reasonably sure that there will be more violence aimed at Republicans and their conservative supporters. I hope I'm wrong and that the ideology can be toned down a bit on both sides, in the wake of this savage attack, but somehow I doubt it.

See what I mean? You've already extrapolated from one gunman to crowds of liberal assasins.
You seem to be suggesting there are crowds of conservative assassins, or that the level of liberally-minded assassin is comparatively negligible. I would say that's a fairly biased opinion.

Historically, Conservative-motivated acts of terror have predominated. There were recently a couple attacks of such a nature. Trump himself insinuated that the "2nd Ammendment people" could do something if Hilary got elected.
What exactly is a "2nd Ammendment person"? This was perceived innuendo by the left-wing. Trump said plenty enough nasty things during the campaign, without having people looking to be offended, manufacturing additional fake threats.

I am not saying these things to cast aspersions on all conservatives or to claim that there will be crowds of crazed Republican assasins, like you. I am saying it to give some perspective. A few crazy people do not represent everyone in the group to which they belonged. Unless you think we should be suspicious or worried of conservatives as well, then please back off with your alarmist attitudes regarding liberals. Or maybe you think we should just be scared of everyone?
"Like me" ? Please clarify that comment immediately, because I am no assassin, nor have I suggested there are crowds of any assassins on either side. Just that I believe there will be more similar assassins going after Republicans in the near future.

But thanks for your implied threats, sir. :facepalm:
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
The Political Divide In Health Care: A Liberal Perspective

Yes, as already stated besides claims of it having been a hoax the other was the teachers should have been armed. And if you have forgotten it was brought up due to your complaint of, and I quote:

"It's disgusting that Leftists have seized upon this moment to try to turn it into a gun control opportunity. The truth is that in this instance, guns saved lives."

You're the one that chose to go off on the political tangent. So, you have no room for complaint. And, as you indicated, you're biased against the left. If you're going to bring up the politics, expect other points to be added. Like, the liberals aren't the only ones "disgusting" enough to use a tragedy as a soap box.

For starters, Sandy Hook was demolished. About 2 years later a new school was built. As for other schools, security guards were either requested or added. What does that have to do with the fact that a right wingnut response was to arm dozens of grade school teachers?
For starters, when did I ever say "Sandy Hook" wasn't demolished? And doesn't the presence of armed guards blast a massive hole in your "guns don't help in school" mantra?

I really don't give a damn about a singular suggestion to fix the problem with school shooting be to arm teachers. I'm pretty sure other solutions were floated.

I see you like to make false accusations, is that your specialty? Once again copy & paste where I voiced an "extreme position" on gun control. What did I say my stance was?
Sandy Hook comparison.

"We never hear", hyperbole much? No liberal calls for reforming our mental health crisis? Like, for example, his from 2005: The Political Divide In Health Care: A Liberal Perspective, or this one from 2013 on a progressives' website, Why Addressing Mental Health Issues Means Reforming The U.S. Prison System? If you made as much effort to do a simple internet search as make erroneous claims about what I've said, you'd find information about liberals and progressives views on mental health.
The former predates your Sandy Hook hysteria, and the latter doesn't address the gun-mental health connection, but instead addresses another issue. ----->Reeeeaching...

So, not only do you like to make false accusations but persist in unilaterally revising the supposed bet, including citing parameters that never existed. Why are you not in Trump's cabinet?
You failed to state any terms, just demanding instant evidence of a hoax, as though you were free to say "SANDY HOOK! SANDY HOOK! SANDY HOOK!", in any shooting, regardless of context. Or lack thereof.

You'll have to cut to the gist of the video, I have no time to listen to some YT schmuck blather. Or at least, give the timestamp to whatever you think is the relevant part. Are you now claiming Alex Jones is the only nutter that spouts such garbage? And that nothing was asserted on the same day?
No need. It's a shameless accusation that the shooting never happened and that it's an attempt to seize guns or something.

The Sandy Hook shooting took place Dec 14, 2012. Here you go, in LESS than 8 hours:

"Mike Adams couldn’t go 6 hours without promoting an insane conspiracy theory about this school shooting"
Posted by Mark H on December 14, 2012

Thanks, I'll take that $5K in a certified bank check.
It was up in ~4. I still win. $5K owed to me, plus vig.

Also, Mike Adams (whoever he is), isn't Alex Jones. Did he change his name or something?
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
This is completely hypocritical of you, though. You are complaining that I am justifying the violence by blaming it on Trump. Then you do the same thing by blaming Democrats for their rhetoric. By the way, I do not blame Trump for the attack.
I don't see Trump directly attacking opposition officials. He does controversial things like try a travel ban or refuse to release his tax returns. He's not calling for anyone to be impeached.

That was completely the perpetrator's fault, who obviously had mental problems.
Rather snap judgment, don't you think? This was a person who worked for Bernie Sanders's campaign, mere months ago. Do you think Senator Sanders would hire a worker who was schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill, to work on his campaign?

We can disagree about the cause of the current divisiveness. And, we can disagree about who's responsibility it is to change their behavior in order to prevent further divisiveness. But, it is unfair for you to say that it is not OK to blame Trump and then turn around and blame Democrats.
Trump didn't create this shooter. Dangerous left-wing ideology did. Democrats are the partial stewards of such ideology. I would say the same thing about either party.

That being said, here is why I think Trump is the one who must make a change for progress to be made in regards to the divisiveness present throughout the US.
So... it doesn't take two to tango for you. Forgive me, but I think you are showing evidence of bias.

1. He is the commander in chief. He is the leader of the free world, and he has a responsibility to lead by example.
2. He constantly "trolls" by putting out false claims and unsubstantiated "facts" in an attempt to upset the left.
3. He uses personal insults and other bullying techniques in an effort to strong arm (doesn't seem to be working though ... although, it did during the campaign)
4. He and his people lie constantly, which builds animosity because his supporters don't seem to care.
5. This is an opportunity to build unity by reaching out to the left. I hope he does the right thing and presents legislation that Democrats can get behind. The infrastructure plan is a great way to do it. Also, he should push for changes to health care that the Democrats can accept without committing political suicide.

There are more, but we can start here.
1. And represents only the executive branch. He has a responsibility as you say, but is not the only elected official that needs to lead by example.
2. The members of the Left freely reciprocate and put out false claims, unsubstantiated facts and attempts to smear both Trump and the Republicans (e.g. Russian conspiracy).
3. Members of the Democrat Party have dropped profanities on the House and Senate floor, which their supporters on social media cheer.
4. Democrats and other liberals lie constantly, and have the support of the Mainstream Media to repeat unsubstantiated claims.
5. It takes two sides to come together. Obama and the 2009-2017 Congresses were incredibly divisive and consistently failed to compromise, welcoming polarizing views. Trump appears to continue the trend on his end, but I'm not going to forget the Legislature's role this time, as you apparently have.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Guns aren't the problem. If you ask me, they're the solution. People have to protect themselves because they won't have the police like the politicians do. We have too many wackos walking around this country in addition to the thugs. They are the only things we have if a leftist government gains power and wants to take our rights away from us. Good people need to ramp up their personal armory to include pistols and semi-auto rifles and the best ammo they can afford. Go CCW if you can.

The other huge problem is the leftist media who continue to help divide this country. That's NYT, WaPo, NPR, CNN and Hollywood are to blame for leftist hate and violence. We've had comedians hold up a bloodied head of Trump, we have a play where President Trump gets stabbed and is assassinated, we've had violent leftist protesters who disrupted town halls, beat down Trump supporters, caused violence and anarchy at peaceful marches and more!!! It started getting worse when Obama came into power. What we have now is the Democrats have become the party of terror, violence and the philosophy of holding on to power by any means possible. Even now they continue to support the impeachment or even assassination of President Trump and some of the most vile things imaginable in all the years I've seen US politics.

The shooter was a Bernie Sanders supporter. Sanders himself said that his supporters need to take down Trump. All of this was played up when Sanders doesn't mean anything anymore.

Is this something new by the Democrats? Hell no. They have a long history of violence and fomenting violence when things don't go their way. We've had eight years of Obama and leftist politics shoved down our throats. Enough is enough. If the left want violence in the streets, then they're going to get it.

Guns are the solution to... Wait for it... People with guns! Love it!

Lol. What a perfect solution?!
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
You don't remember him accusing Obama of illegally wiretapping Trump Towers?
Seriously?
Yes, that claim was later found to be credible. You don't remember all that illegal unmasking and claimed "incidental surveillance" that is now under investigation? Seriously?
You don't remember chants of "Lock her up! Lock her up!"?
Seriously?
For the crimes of illegally handling classified material, obstruction of justice and destruction of evidence. And this is long past when she was ever an elected official. Seriously.

Trump has been doing this sort of thing for years.
Tom
He's been doing many nasty things for years, but this isn't one of them.

Hey, how far into Obama's presidency did we get before actual Republicans, or even a significant plurality of their supporters, started to call for his impeachment?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Guns are the solution to... Wait for it... People with guns! Love it!

Lol. What a perfect solution?!

What part did you miss from the news story? The perp was shot by the police and died in their custody. He can't kill again. I can't believe the idiocy that gun control nuts has led to.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Except when such realms converge. This guy worked for Bernie Sanders's campaign. He lived and breathed public dissidence and disapproval of Trump. So then he cased a YMCA so that he could stalk and murder Republicans. He was a methodical, obsessed activist who went too far. Calling him "crazy" sounds dismissive, in the context provided.
Stalking and murdering republicans is crazy, and evidence that he was very much an extreme outlier.

In no way is he representative of all Bernie supporters, campaign workers, or liberals, as you seem to want to insinuate.

Double standard. Or so you insinuateThe fact remains also that the vast majority of conservatives are non-violent. Disapproval of Trump is far more vitriolic, nasty and violent than any condemnation of Barack Obama or Bill Clinton.
My entire point was that the vast majority of conservatives are non-violent, just like the vast majority of liberals are non-violent. You are the one who is arguing that this incident is some evidence of a liberal menace. Again, if you think one gunman makes all liberals suspect, then why are you not applying the same standards to conservatives, who have certainly more prevalent cases?

Not a bet I'd like to make, but I'm reasonably sure that there will be more violence aimed at Republicans and their conservative supporters. I hope I'm wrong and that the ideology can be toned down a bit on both sides, in the wake of this savage attack, but somehow I doubt it.
As I hope that conservatives can stop attacking Muslims. But unlike you, I am not claiming that conservatives en masse pose a threat of forming crowds of assassins. I do not think that all or even the vast majority of Republicans would violently attack people. I am asking you to tone down your rhetoric likewise.

You seem to be suggesting there are crowds of conservative assassins, or that the level of liberally-minded assassin is comparatively negligible. I would say that's a fairly biased opinion.
Again, that is the opposite of what I said. I dont think there are crowds of conservative assassins, even though there have been conservative psychos too. You are the one hypothesizing crowds of liberal assassins based on the disgusting actions of this one guy.

What exactly is a "2nd Ammendment person"? This was perceived innuendo by the left-wing. Trump said plenty enough nasty things during the campaign, without having people looking to be offended, manufacturing additional fake threats.
I'm really not sure how else that was meant to be taken. Trump was appealing to people who own guns who believe, as the 2nd Ammendment states, that their guns are a means to securing a free state. There are not many other ways to take it.

Say I'm wrong. Trump still made a statement vague enough that obviously a lot of people could interpret it in the way I did. Some might have been inspired by it.

Regardless, there have clearly been conservatives attackinf people and that's my point: there are like 300 million people in this country and nearly half are Rs and the other half are Ds. There's bound to be nutjobs in groups that large. There's no evidence that one gunman means that we should be scared of the whole group.

"Like me" ? Please clarify that comment immediately, because I am no assassin, nor have I suggested there are crowds of any assassins on either side. Just that I believe there will be more similar assassins going after Republicans in the near future.

But thanks for your implied threats, sir. :facepalm:
Yet another misreading. Why would I accuse you of being a Republican assassin? That makes no sense in the context. Seems like you were just looking to be offended.

"Like you" referred to your statement: You are insinuating that there will be crowds of liberal assassins. Despite the presence of conservative killers, I do not claim that there will be crowds of conservative assasins, like you claimed of liberals.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
What part did you miss from the news story? The perp was shot by the police and died in their custody. He can't kill again. I can't believe the idiocy that gun control nuts has led to.

I didn't miss that part.

Control means the right people can own guns including the police. They have proper training.

Lunacy might be defined as allowing anyone to own a gun. Thus creating the problem. Lunacy then comes full circle by proposing the fix to allow more guns to correct a self-perpetuating problem.

Statistics prove that countries with strict gun control have less gun deaths and violence. The correlation is clear but pro gun folks won't readily admit it.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
Stalking and murdering republicans is crazy, and evidence that he was very much an extreme outlier.
Only if you subscribe to the weirdo liberal notion that anyone that commits a crime is mentally ill.

This guy was a hothead, previously arrested for failing to obtain electrical permits, discharging a firearm in public, damaging a motor vehicle, resisting a peace officer, eluding police, criminal damage to property, driving under the influence, beating his daughter and assorted traffic offenses. Amazingly, after entering the system that many times, no one ever diagnosed him as mentally ill. There's even evidence that he possibly prepared for this attack by rehearsing the shooting.

In no way is he representative of all Bernie supporters, campaign workers, or liberals, as you seem to want to insinuate.
Of course he wasn't. Bernie totally disavowed him. But I'm saying it's more than a little possible that murderous terrorist left-wing weirdos are also left-wing activists.

My entire point was that the vast majority of conservatives are non-violent, just like the vast majority of liberals are non-violent. You are the one who is arguing that this incident is some evidence of a liberal menace. Again, if you think one gunman makes all liberals suspect, then why are you not applying the same standards to conservatives, who have certainly more prevalent cases?
You're the one claiming that no matter how low the number of relative left- and right-wing assassins, you can still tell that there must be more right-wing ones.

As I hope that conservatives can stop attacking Muslims. But unlike you, I am not claiming that conservatives en masse pose a threat of forming crowds of assassins. I do not think that all or even the vast majority of Republicans would violently attack people. I am asking you to tone down your rhetoric likewise.
Oh yes- because that's the way it works: Islamic attacks aren't caused by Muslim terrorists, but by Islamophobia promoted by conservatives. What refreshing logic! Please tell me when I said "crowds" of assassins, or quit lying that I made the claim.

I believe I said, "batch", meaning "next group", not some ill-defined number, large or otherwise.

Again, that is the opposite of what I said. I dont think there are crowds of conservative assassins, even though there have been conservative psychos too. You are the one hypothesizing crowds of liberal assassins based on the disgusting actions of this one guy.
I'm just saying they exist and that it's likely there will be more. You're the one who seems to have an allergy to such a statement.

I'm really not sure how else that was meant to be taken. Trump was appealing to people who own guns who believe, as the 2nd Ammendment states, that their guns are a means to securing a free state. There are not many other ways to take it.

Say I'm wrong. Trump still made a statement vague enough that obviously a lot of people could interpret it in the way I did. Some might have been inspired by it.

Regardless, there have clearly been conservatives attackinf people and that's my point: there are like 300 million people in this country and nearly half are Rs and the other half are Ds. There's bound to be nutjobs in groups that large. There's no evidence that one gunman means that we should be scared of the whole group.
So the vagaries of a statement aren't the job of the candidate to define, but can be interpreted willy-nilly as the absolute worst possible intent? How nice.

Your numbers are way off too, unless you are confusing Republicans and Democrats with conservatives and liberals. Most of the country, those who are eligible to vote, don't register as either R or D.

But okay- shall we bet that there will / won't be another assassination attempt upon a member of the federal government in the next 42 months?

Yet another misreading. Why would I accuse you of being a Republican assassin? That makes no sense in the context. Seems like you were just looking to be offended.

"Like you" referred to your statement: You are insinuating that there will be crowds of liberal assassins. Despite the presence of conservative killers, I do not claim that there will be crowds of conservative assasins, like you claimed of liberals.
Maybe work on sentence structure then?

"I am not saying these things to cast aspersions on all conservatives or to claim that there will be crowds of crazed Republican assasins, like you."

I never claimed there were crowds of "assasins". I never said things to cast aspersions on all conservatives. And I certainly would never be a Republican assasin (or assassin).
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Only if you subscribe to the weirdo liberal notion that anyone that commits a crime is mentally ill.

This guy was a hothead, previously arrested for failing to obtain electrical permits, discharging a firearm in public, damaging a motor vehicle, resisting a peace officer, eluding police, criminal damage to property, driving under the influence, beating his daughter and assorted traffic offenses. Amazingly, after entering the system that many times, no one ever diagnosed him as mentally ill. There's even evidence that he possibly prepared for this attack by rehearsing the shooting.
I didn't say he had a mental illness. I said he was crazy and that such an act is crazy.

2a : not mentally sound : marked by thought or action that lacks reason : insane 1b yelling like a crazy man —not used technicallyb (1) : impractical a crazyplan (2) : erratic crazydriversc : being out of the ordinary : unusual a taste for crazyhats
Merriam-Webster

I think all of those definitions apply.

Of course he wasn't. Bernie totally disavowed him. But I'm saying it's more than a little possible that murderous terrorist left-wing weirdos are also left-wing activists.
Yes, this terrorist left-wing weirdo was a left wing activist.

The problem was that you took it a further step: that we should be concerned that a left-wing activists may be terrorist left wing weirdos. But this action does not define an entire huge group, and your insinuation is dangerous.

This terrorist left-wing weirdo was also a man. Does that mean all men should be suspected of being terrorist left-wing weirdos? Of course not.

You're the one claiming that no matter how low the number of relative left- and right-wing assassins, you can still tell that there must be more right-wing ones.
I was thinking of the recent mosque attack in Quebec, the Portland attack, the Charleston church shooter, the various abortion clinic shooters, and the Oklahoma City bomber. I struggle to come of with as frequent examples of liberal-motivated attacks. However, I could not find statistics to back up my claim, so I will withdraw it.

It is unnecessary for my main point: Conservative terrorists exist. That doesn't mean we should be scared of all conservatives or conservative rhetoric, unlike your claims regarding liberals.

Oh yes- because that's the way it works: Islamic attacks aren't caused by Muslim terrorists, but by Islamophobia promoted by conservatives. What refreshing logic!
Nope, never said any of that. I think Muslim terrorists are motivated by, and find justification, in their religion. It's certainly a factor.

Please tell me when I said "crowds" of assassins, or quit lying that I made the claim.
I believe I said, "batch", meaning "next group", not some ill-defined number, large or otherwise.
Here it is, with my bold:
When the investigations fail to provide evidence or Congress doesn't vote to impeach, what will be the effect upon the gun-toting liberal assassination crowds then?

I'm just saying they exist and that it's likely there will be more. You're the one who seems to have an allergy to such a statement.
No, I objected to your insinuation that being liberal, and that anti-Trump rhetoric, should be evidence that someone might be about to become a gun toting assasin. Don't you see that slippery slope? It's a way to effectively silence the political opposition by casting everyone who holds those beliefs as a dangerous lunatic.

Your numbers are way off too, unless you are confusing Republicans and Democrats with conservatives and liberals. Most of the country, those who are eligible to vote, don't register as either R or D.
I think it's clear that the country's political beliefs are split nearly half-n-half. But even if we only split those registered to vote, that's over 200 million people, with 48% registered as Ds and 44% registered as Rs. My point stands that these are huge groups of people we are talking about.
But okay- shall we bet that there will / won't be another assassination attempt upon a member of the federal government in the next 42 months?
No. That is distasteful. And even if an attack does happen that doesn't mean that we should be scared of liberals, just like we shouldn't be scared of conservatives after the various attacks they have perpetrated.

Maybe work on sentence structure then?

"I am not saying these things to cast aspersions on all conservatives or to claim that there will be crowds of crazed Republican assasins, like you."

I never claimed there were crowds of "assasins". I never said things to cast aspersions on all conservatives. And I certainly would never be a Republican assasin (or assassin).
You did claim that we should be worried about "gun-toting liberal assasination crowds". As for the rest, I never claimed that you were.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
"I don't like following the laws of the country, so we should just force MY interpretation of the Constitution down everybody's throats! REEEEEEE."

The whole damn thing is a list of concessions, but it's the law either way, and the state's rights part wasn't a slave issue at the time.

You know, as a Tennessean, I'm appalled by the idea that the country should be ruled entirely from the major cities. Why should Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles rule the country as their personal dictatorship?

"Big cities will rule if we remove the EC" <<-- what a crock of excrement.

We would still have 2 senators per state. We would still have the same number of representatives per state.

The fecking state's "rights" would still be protected by that; your ignorance or deliberate ignoring of that is duly noted.

The POTUS is supposedly the representative of the whole country--with the EC, it's not-- it's slanted grossly away from Common Cause.

Proof? Clinton beat the sh8tnazi by roughly 3 MILLION VOTES-- but the stupid EC gave trumpGrabEm a Participation Trophy anyway.

Currently, the trump'o'lini has less that 20% of the population still supporting his boondoggles.... and he does not care about the rest-- at all.


So take your antiquated "states rights" and shove it where it'll do some good-- perhaps down trumpEm's hateful pie-hole?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
And yet strangely they didn't. But then after we proved we had a second weapon (and likely a 3rd and 4th to follow), they surrendered unconditionally.

History Notebook: we didn't have a 3rd or 4th until months away. It was brilliant bluff.

And it worked, fortunately, otherwise the President would have had to eat his words.

The hold up was, as I recall from history, two-fold: We needed more atomic material to create another device, likely plutonium would have been the material of choice (easier than isolating U235). (another fat man device, rather than the little boy which used U235).

The second problem, if we had gone with Pu, was the engineering problem of fabricating the very intricate "soccer ball" set of high explosives and their very precise detonators. We did not have any ready-- Groves insisting on an extra test before the first atomic detonation (Trinity device), using up one of 3 sets.

It was months away, at our best pace.

But neither the Japanese nor Stalin knew that at the time....

Sometimes, I think the frenetic pace of atomic testing during the 1950's was taunting Stalin as much as it was for engineering testing... "See? We can blow up stuff all day long; we can blow up all your cities-- don't mess with the USA, Stalin"
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I didn't miss that part.

Control means the right people can own guns including the police. They have proper training.

Lunacy might be defined as allowing anyone to own a gun. Thus creating the problem. Lunacy then comes full circle by proposing the fix to allow more guns to correct a self-perpetuating problem.

Statistics prove that countries with strict gun control have less gun deaths and violence. The correlation is clear but pro gun folks won't readily admit it.

We're not a country that was born without guns. Guns are part of our culture and freedom. What I don't want is a double standard, those who get gun protection like the government and rich people and those who do not. It's better that people have guns. That said, people who get guns need to learn how to use a gun and not go to jail. The gun laws are strict in this country, so they have to learn and abide by the laws. However, the gun control advocates keep pushing the boundary and want an unfair system and a way for the government to force people to their will. I am strongly against this and thus, we need good citizens to take up arms and know how to properly use and store them. I'm for CCW. This is the best way to stand up against bad and unhinged people with guns.

In this case, guns aren't the problem. They were the solution. What was the cause? It appears that the media and social media prompted this person into becoming unhinged and do this evil deed.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Hey, how far into Obama's presidency did we get before actual Republicans, or even a significant plurality of their supporters, started to call for his impeachment?
May of 2010 (17 months in to his presidency), by Republican Representative Darrell Issa over allegations that Obama had offered a job to Joe Sestak, in an effort to persuade him to drop out of the Pennsylvania Representative primaries.

There was also the ongoing accusations that Obama was not a natural citizen, and demands to see his birth certificate since 2008, culminating when Republican Representative Blake Farenthold stated that Obama should be impeached due to the conspiracy in August of 2013.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
We're not a country that was born without guns. Guns are part of our culture and freedom. What I don't want is a double standard, those who get gun protection like the government and rich people and those who do not. It's better that people have guns. That said, people who get guns need to learn how to use a gun and not go to jail. The gun laws are strict in this country, so they have to learn and abide by the laws. However, the gun control advocates keep pushing the boundary and want an unfair system and a way for the government to force people to their will. I am strongly against this and thus, we need good citizens to take up arms and know how to properly use and store them. I'm for CCW. This is the best way to stand up against bad and unhinged people with guns.

In this case, guns aren't the problem. They were the solution. What was the cause? It appears that the media and social media prompted this person into becoming unhinged and do this evil deed.

I made a point of this before.

If you want to argue that an inanimate object can be a solution, then the same inanimate object can be the problem depending on the arbitrary usage. Statistics will prove that this inanimate object kills more than it does save lives.

Just because guns are part of our culture does not mean that cannot change. Slavery used to be part of culture. Cultures change and evolve.

There is limited freedom to own guns. There are already some laws that restrict people from owning guns. How that's enforced is another subject.

I'm not against gun ownership but I'm on the other end of your control scale. I feel we are way to relaxed with gun ownership. The automobile industry does more to control proper ownership and usage.
It does this with training, testing, licensing, insurance, registration and enforcement. The ratio of automobile usage per death is much lower than compared to gun usage per death.

I will include links from two biased sources on both ends of the spectrum:

Gun Deaths Compared to Motor Vehicle Deaths

NRA-ILA | Guns vs. Cars Comparison is No Accident

Now, if we want to compare accidental deaths, then cars win by roughly 40% which is a large gap.

However, if we want to compare All deaths, then firearms more than makes up that 40%.

Hey, I'm fine if we find a rational way to reduce that number to only accidental deaths.

Other industries do not have this problem with such a large gap in self inflicted harm versus harming of others as does the gun industry.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
History Notebook: we didn't have a 3rd or 4th until months away. It was brilliant bluff.

And it worked, fortunately, otherwise the President would have had to eat his words.

The hold up was, as I recall from history, two-fold: We needed more atomic material to create another device, likely plutonium would have been the material of choice (easier than isolating U235). (another fat man device, rather than the little boy which used U235).

The second problem, if we had gone with Pu, was the engineering problem of fabricating the very intricate "soccer ball" set of high explosives and their very precise detonators. We did not have any ready-- Groves insisting on an extra test before the first atomic detonation (Trinity device), using up one of 3 sets.

It was months away, at our best pace.

But neither the Japanese nor Stalin knew that at the time....

Sometimes, I think the frenetic pace of atomic testing during the 1950's was taunting Stalin as much as it was for engineering testing... "See? We can blow up stuff all day long; we can blow up all your cities-- don't mess with the USA, Stalin"
Indeed. Odds are Operation Downfall would've taken 1-3 years. And since the Allies enjoyed full air supremacy at that point, we would dropped more incendiary and nuclear bombs.

It was really only a matter of how fervent Japan was in their readiness to die. At that point in 1945, they cared more about what might happen to the emperor, than how many Japanese peasants might be killed in the resistance. The atomic bomb proved we could wiped out whole cities with a single aircraft & weapon. It was a game-changer, and Truman gambled well.

May of 2010 (17 months in to his presidency), by Republican Representative Darrell Issa over allegations that Obama had offered a job to Joe Sestak, in an effort to persuade him to drop out of the Pennsylvania Representative primaries.

There was also the ongoing accusations that Obama was not a natural citizen, and demands to see his birth certificate since 2008, culminating when Republican Representative Blake Farenthold stated that Obama should be impeached due to the conspiracy in August of 2013.
17 > 6 ?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Obviously, yes. But what are the charges? Maybe giving a job to someone so he would drop out of a race (an allegation that was withdrawn by that October,) versus failure to separate personal international business and finances with the office of the presidency (which actually is illegal).
 
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