Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

Almost immediately after the public execution. The disciples had scarpered and only Magdalene, Salome and some other women had the guts to remain.

And I reckon that Celcius' account of Mary, her position as Temple-Virgin in a Greek Temple within hellenised Sepphoris (Zippori), the Roman retaking of Sepphoris from Judas BarEzekiah and her dalliance with a Roman soldier (Patronus?) which probably saved her life and freedom because all female residents were sold in to slavery, probably is the foundation upon which the myths were built. Nazareth is only about four miles to the south and was a hilltop working community in service to the city, hence Joseph's presence after the Romans left the area.

I reckon that could be the simple truth behind the legends and myths.

But it shatters the Abrahamic religions apart from Judaism. Blows 'em to the winds.

Why believe Celsus? (Note spelling.) He wrote in the 2nd century and was virulently opposed to Christianity, a common attitude among Romans in those days. Where did he get his information from after all those years when no one else seems to have known anything about it?

No one seems to know anything about a virgin birth until Matthew wrote about it around 80 AD or so. Where did he get his information? Paul and Mark would love to have had that kind of material to bolster their cases. Might it be that Matthew made it up? Such a story would very useful for establishing Jesus as the literal Son of God without getting into uncomfortable territory like Paul's pre-existing divine Jesus and its implication of polytheism. That would have distracted Matthew's Jewish oriented target audience away from the main message that Jesus was the Messiah.

People tend to believe the stories that support what they want to believe, despite basic questions like Where did the info come from?

 

[CG Didymus]

Almost immediately after the public execution. The disciples had scarpered and only Magdalene, Salome and some other women had the guts to remain.

And I reckon that Celcius' account of Mary, her position as Temple-Virgin in a Greek Temple within hellenised Sepphoris (Zippori), the Roman retaking of Sepphoris from Judas BarEzekiah and her dalliance with a Roman soldier (Patronus?) which probably saved her life and freedom because all female residents were sold in to slavery, probably is the foundation upon which the myths were built. Nazareth is only about four miles to the south and was a hilltop working community in service to the city, hence Joseph's presence after the Romans left the area.

I reckon that could be the simple truth behind the legends and myths.

But it shatters the Abrahamic religions apart from Judaism. Blows 'em to the winds.

Exactly, I don't see the difference between "allegorical", "symbolic" and myth and fantasy. If it didn't happened then the Christian religion is built on made up stories. Baha'is try to tell us that there is some pure, original story that got lost along the way, along with some parts being symbolic. By using both of these, they can discount anything they want to or reinterpret anything that's in the New Testament. But, as Site points out, they believe the prophecies are dead on. But of course, with some Baha'i interpretation to help make them dead on.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why believe Celsus? (Note spelling.) He wrote in the 2nd century and was virulently opposed to Christianity, a common attitude among Romans in those days. Where did he get his information from after all those years when no one else seems to have known anything about it?

No one seems to know anything about a virgin birth until Matthew wrote about it around 80 AD or so. Where did he get his information? Paul and Mark would love to have had that kind of material to bolster their cases. Might it be that Matthew made it up? Such a story would very useful for establishing Jesus as the literal Son of God without getting into uncomfortable territory like Paul's pre-existing divine Jesus and its implication of polytheism. That would have distracted Matthew's Jewish oriented target audience away from the main message that Jesus was the Messiah.

People tend to believe the stories that support what they want to believe, despite basic questions like Where did the info come from?

The virgin birth also bypasses that horrible taint of a sin nature inherited by all the rest of humanity from Adam.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

The virgin birth also bypasses that horrible taint of a sin nature inherited by all the rest of humanity from Adam.

The Catholic church still needed to have the Immaculate Conception to prevent original sin from being transmitted by Mary.

 

[Trailblazer]

In Galatian 3:16 “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

There is a special stress on the word “SEED” as referring to an individual, “which is Christ”, the Messiah.

Now, which one the TRUE MANIFESTATION OF GOD?

Christ or Baha’u’llah?

BOTH Jesus and Baha’u’llah were TRUE Manifestations of God and neither one is “better” than the other; they just had different Missions at different times in history. Baha’u’llah came to finish the work Jesus started and laid the groundwork for:

John 10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus was referring to the future, when diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions and the contentions between races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed (Isaiah 11:6-9). In the distant future there will only be one religion, the religion of God. This was the Mission of Baha’u’llah.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth that Jesus promised to send who would do all these things. These were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done some of those things and the remainder will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and bore witness to Jesus in His Writings. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

The only reason Christians cannot believe Baha’u’llah is who He claimed to be is because (a) they believe Jesus is “The Only Way” and the Messiah and (b) they believe Jesus is going to return and rule the world. That is the only reason Christians have to believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, because if that did not happen then the body of Jesus is dead and Jesus cannot return in the same body, but rather Jesus would have to send His Spirit, as Jesus promised to do in John 14, 15 and 16.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

In Galatian 3:16 “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

There is a special stress on the word “SEED” as referring to an individual, “which is Christ”, the Messiah.

Now, which one the TRUE MANIFESTATION OF GOD?

Christ or Baha’u’llah?

Paul can write whatever He wants but that won’t make the same man Jesus into the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Jews knew that Jesus was not that Messiah, and that is why they still do not believe Jesus was even a Prophet. Christians are trying to make Jesus into what He never was and never said that He was – the Messiah of the latter days, the Promised One of All Ages – and Jews know that is not true so they reject Jesus altogether... It does not matter what is in the New Testament because some of it was written to make it appear as if Jesus is the Messiah, but He isn’t. What is in the Old Testament precludes Jesus as the Messiah. Isaiah 53 is just one chapter that precludes Jesus:

Jesus did not fulfill any of the Isaiah 53 prophecies. Logically speaking, the only way that Jesus could be the Messiah would be if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies upon His Return. Is Jesus going to have children and “see His seed” as Baha’u’llah did? Then there is the slight little problem of Mount Carmel... How did the World Centre of the Baha’i Faith get there? Why is it there? Is Jesus going to tear it all down and build His own buildings when He returns to rule the world as Christians believe He will?

The following is and excerpt from: Thief in the Night, pp. 156-160

There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

Isaiah had foretold:

1. “He is despised and rejected of men: a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief …” Isaiah 53:3.

• Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.

2. “We hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.” Isaiah 53:3.

• The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

3. “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows …” Isaiah 53:4.

• I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

The prophecy of Isaiah continues:

4. “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5

• Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

5. “He was taken from prison and from judgement …” Isaiah 53:8

• Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

6. “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death …” Isaiah 53:9.

• Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

7. “… he shall see his seed …” Isaiah 53:10.

• Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
• “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
• The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.

8. Isaiah’s prophecy continues:

“He (God) shall prolong his days …” Isaiah 53:10.

• Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
• These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes (4:14):

 

[Trailblazer]

And when did the distortions start? I've asked this of Baha'is several times, when did Christianity ever have and teach the truth about God? If from the beginning they were teaching that Jesus rose physically from the dead, then from the beginning, according to Baha'is, they were already wrong. If so, why would or should a Jew convert to a religion that taught something that was false?

I do not know the history of Christianity; I only know what they were wrong about, according to my Baha'i beliefs. From what I do know, the distortions started from the beginning and were then they became the doctrines of the Christian Church, such as the Nicene creed adopted at the First Council of Nicaea (325).

A Jew should not convert to Christianity, they should convert to Baha'i.

As I just said to Neb: "Paul can write whatever He wants but that won’t make the same man Jesus into the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Jews knew that Jesus was not that Messiah, and that is why they still do not believe Jesus was even a Prophet. Christians are trying to make Jesus into what He never was and never said that He was – the Messiah of the latter days, the Promised One of All Ages – and Jews know that is not true so they reject Jesus altogether... It does not matter what is in the New Testament because some of it was written to make it appear as if Jesus is the Messiah, but He isn’t. What is in the Old Testament precludes Jesus as the Messiah. Isaiah 53 is just one chapter that precludes Jesus:"

 

[Dawnofhope]

An easy way out is to invoke or appeal to science and religion as your main argument when confronted with facts known to be the truth in Christianity, like the resurrection of Christ. Of course scientists, a mere creation of the Creator, would deny such claim and this would conveniently prove your belief as the truth. If it’s in conflict with your doctrine you invoke science and religion, and just like atheism, they used science to disprove the existence of the God and in your case the existence of the literal resurrection of Christ by appealing to science. It’s all very convenient, very creative, but intellectually irresponsible.

There's nothing easy about science or religion once you have lived life and are serious about finding answers to the hard questions.

Science provides us with the internet, easy travel between continents, and many of the man made objects we see around us are testimony of man's capacity to consider the abstract and bring forth inventions from the invisible realm to create things formerly unknown.

Religion on the other hand can inspire us, provide moral guidance, motivate us to help the less fortunate, and provide us strength in times of comfort. The majority of the worlds peoples have a faith and its been part of any civilisation from the start of human history.

There should be no doubt that science and religion are both necessary to the life of man. The Baha'i faith teaches that religion and science are like two great pillars of knowledge but we need both in balance. If we have science without religion then we have materialism. Religion without science leads to superstition.

That's the point of this thread, to find the path of moderation so we can engage compassionately and intelligently with the world and those around us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

All literal. Science is not God. If science is your authority on what is literal or allegorical in the Bible then science is your creator. I appeal to the Bible, the inerrant word of God. You worshipped and served creation rather than the Creator.

If Christians just want to ignore science and take the Bible literally, why did they bother changing their theology in response to Galileo and Copernicus?

Let me ask you a question, how did life begin here on earth? Can your science and religion explain this?

I'm satisfied with some aspects of life being a mystery and not knowing. While I don't know how life began on earth the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden taken literally is not a satisfactory explanation. Science has completed discredited a literal interpretation of the story of creation and the flood in Noah's time. The story of Adam and Eve falls between these two myths. Why should I take literally a story about a talking serpent?

As the baby grows within the womb of its mother, it develops arms, legs, eyes, and ears to enable it to function in the world outside the womb of which it has no comprehension. In like manner we are on this world to develop spiritually and morally to assist us both in this world and prepare us for the next.

The table can have no comprehension of the carpenter who has created it. Like the table and the carpenter, can we comprehend the world of God? No. It is only through Christ and His Manifestations that we can properly understand the nature of God, within our human limitations.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Catholic church still needed to have the Immaculate Conception to prevent original sin from being transmitted by Mary.

How do Protestants get around that?

 

[oldbadger]

Why believe Celsus? (Note spelling.) He wrote in the 2nd century and was virulently opposed to Christianity, a common attitude among Romans in those days. Where did he get his information from after all those years when no one else seems to have known anything about it?

Well, I can see why he was so opposed.
His opposition is noted, probably because of his information.
He wrote in the 2nd century, when John's Gospel and Revelations got written.
Wherever that info comes from it fits amazingly accurately with Herod's death, Hellenised Sepphoris, the Roman occupation of same, Mary's title, Mary's circumstances, the proximity of Nazareth, the two Canas, etc.........
It is a much closer match than the mangled myths of the nativity.

No one seems to know anything about a virgin birth until Matthew wrote about it around 80 AD or so. Where did he get his information? Paul and Mark would love to have had that kind of material to bolster their cases. Might it be that Matthew made it up? Such a story would very useful for establishing Jesus as the literal Son of God without getting into uncomfortable territory like Paul's pre-existing divine Jesus and its implication of polytheism. That would have distracted Matthew's Jewish oriented target audience away from the main message that Jesus was the Messiah.

Yes, but Celcius (sorry Celcus) seems to have nailed the truth down, compared to Matthew, Paul and the others. Why did you mention Mark, who never got involved with the nativity?

People tend to believe the stories that support what they want to believe, despite basic questions like Where did the info come from?

Yes they do, but since historians have written about Herod's death, the taking of Sepphoris that year, Varus's instructionto retake that city, the Roman action there, the fact that most of the Jewish upper class was hellenised, the presence of pagan temples in such cities, the proximity of Nazareth, it's going to be hard for any to propose that I have any agenda driven by by any deeply seated objective.

 

[oldbadger]

Exactly, I don't see the difference between "allegorical", "symbolic" and myth and fantasy. If it didn't happened then the Christian religion is built on made up stories.

Sure. Chritian faith is based upon such obviously stretched and manipulated accounts that's it's embarrassing to hear such claims as the nativity now.

Baha'is try to tell us that there is some pure, original story that got lost along the way, along with some parts being symbolic. By using both of these, they can discount anything they want to or reinterpret anything that's in the New Testament. But, as Site points out, they believe the prophecies are dead on. But of course, with some Baha'i interpretation to help make them dead on.

But Bahais need the Christian story to fit with what Bahauallah wrote about it, or their amazing claims that he was uneducated but fed with truth direct from God is proved to be junk.

Which dumps Bahai into this ridiculous position of needing to take a mangled, distorted, stretched and manipulated Christian story, and then mangle, distort, stretch and manipulate it some more, in order to fit with their own Bahai writings.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, but Celcius (sorry Celcus) seems to have nailed the truth down, compared to Matthew, Paul and the others. Why did you mention Mark, who never got involved with the nativity?

Didn't Celcus claim a Roman soldier named Pantara was the father of Jesus and that Jesus performed His miracles by sorcery?

Celsus - Wikipedia

 

[William Milverton]

The bible story is that Satan was the lawful ruler of planet Earth between Eden and Jesus’ crucifixion
Is there any evidence for this?


Our ancestors have been around for 6,000,000 years
yet civilization as we know it, only began 6,000 years ago
Jesus died (broadly) 2,000 years ago
Real scientific progress began (broadly) 1,000 years ago
Industrialization has only just happened


The Occult position is that external magic ceased to exist with the destruction of the second Temple of Solomon in 70CE
Before that, magic worked exactly as it is recorded in the bible, in other ancient books, and in myth and legend
After the Temple was destroyed humans had to create magic from within themselves.


A history calendar of scientific theories and discoveries can be found at :-
Timeline of scientific discoveries - Wikipedia
From an overview of this calendar, it should be obvious that something astonishing happened to humanity 1,000 years ago
and that it had probably been building up for some time before that


Humans are so excited with all the new abilities they now have
that they have never stopped to think “Where has all this come from? How did it happen?”
Occultists say it happened at the destruction of the Second Temple
Christians say it happened after the crucifixion when Lord Jesus overthrew Satan and became the ruler of our whole universe
No one else has anything to say on the subject


You have asked :-
” What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection”
I have given you the evidence for
There is no evidence against


A history calendar of scientific theories and discoveries can be found at :-
Timeline of scientific discoveries - Wikipedia
None are recorded before 4BCE
After 4BCE there were one or two each century
They started to pick up in the 10CE – 800 to 900 years after Jesus’ death
They built up in 16CE and in 17CE went into overdrive
Industrialization started in earnest only in the 1800s
Every century since has featured massive multiple advances in science and industry
The first human mission to space took place April 12, 1961
Humanity first set foot on another world on July 20, 1969
How Long Have Humans Been On Earth? - Universe Today

 

[oldbadger]

Didn't Celcus claim a Roman soldier named Pantara was the father of Jesus and that Jesus performed His miracles by sorcery?

Celsus - Wikipedia

Yes, that's the correct name.
And yet tomorrow or earlier Patronus will be set in my mind, I seem to be affected by some kind of 'name dyslexia' and get people's names wrong (or forgotten) that I have known for many years. My father had the same condition, and I even remember him forgetting my name and friends' names. I've never heard of it before, though.

 

[oldbadger]

Didn't Celcus claim a Roman soldier named Pantara was the father of Jesus and that Jesus performed His miracles by sorcery?

Celsus - Wikipedia

I forgot to mention the sorcery part.
Many people, mostly women, were tried and convicted of sorcery in Britain for carrying out any actions, healings etc that could not be understood.

I can well imagine that a person such as Yeshua BarYosef who could (no doubt) affect hysterical and auto-suggestive conditions by charismatic-stun, and amaze so many through his other abilities would be described as a sorcerer.

You have no doubt seen @Ingledsva 's comments about the Greek word 'tekton' and it's connections with the Galilean-Aramaic 'Nagar' which meant magician, yet another connection to 'magi'.

Celcus was not far off there.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I forgot to mention the sorcery part.
Many people, mostly women, were tried and convicted of sorcery in Britain for carrying out any actions, healings etc that could not be understood.

I can well imagine that a person such as Yeshua BarYosef who could (no doubt) affect hysterical and auto-suggestive conditions by charismatic-stun, and amaze so many through his other abilities would be described as a sorcerer.

You have no doubt seen @Ingledsva 's comments about the Greek word 'tekton' and it's connections with the Galilean-Aramaic 'Nagar' which meant magician, yet another connection to 'magi'.

Celcus was not far off there.

Some form of dyslexia is common. It affects about 10% of the populations. Then again you may have just muddled the words like we all do.

I was going to ask you about the Roman sollder, Pantera who Celsus alleges had an affair with Mary the mother of Jesus but I've found it.

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia

Its so left field its probably out of the park. Its a stark contrast to the pure and saintly Mary Magdalene and the virgin birth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have asked :-
” What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection”
I have given you the evidence for
There is no evidence against

I must be blinking every time I get to the evidence as I haven't seen any presented.

We may have different understanding of the word evidence. When in doubt I look up a dictionary.

evidence
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/
noun
noun: evidence

1. 1.
   the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
   

 

[oldbadger]

I was going to ask you about the Roman sollder, Pantera who Celsus alleges had an affair with Mary the mother of Jesus but I've found it.

It fits so well. He probably saved her life during the Sepphoris incident. Right time, right place, right names, right circumstances. He would not have been alowed to take her back to Syria, or not wanted to. And Joseph was there.

Its so left field its probably out of the park. Its a stark contrast to the pure and saintly Mary Magdalene and the virgin birth.

And there's you slipping, it must be late there.
The nativity is way out of the park. The Celsus report has historical foundations and is is based within physical and material possibilities. No need for miracles here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dawnofhope]

t fits so well. He probably saved her life during the Sepphoris incident. Right time, right place, right names, right circumstances. He would not have been alowed to take her back to Syria, or not wanted to. And Joseph was there.

I don't mind typos and misspelt names.

And there's you slipping, it must be late there.
The nativity is way out of the park. The Celsus report has historical foundations and is is based within physical and material possibilities. No need for miracles here.

Its all belief and perception really.

The evidence for Celsus looks weak to me, but then again we're talking about events two thousand years ago.