Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[Trailblazer]

That's just great, except Jesus allegedly said that he had flesh and bone... And walked through a wall and floated off into the sky.

Just to keep the record straight, Jesus might have said he was flesh and bone but Jesus never said that He floated off into the sky. Those verses are in Acts.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciple saw a body go up. That fits perfectly with the Baha’i interpretation:

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God, so Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the answer that Christians would give is even simpler... Baha'u'llah can't be the Messiah because he is not Jesus.

I know that is their answer but that does not mean they are right.

Jews do not even believe that Jesus was a Prophet and they are reading Torah scriptures that are more authentic than the NT.

The Jews are wrong of course because Jesus was a Prophet of God. That just demonstrates how badly people can misinterpret their scriptures.

The only religion that can bring it all together is the Baha'i Faith, let's just face it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know I'm very late to this discussion, but I have a question. What other kind of resurrection is there besides a literal one?

A figurative one? A symbolic one? A theoretical one? A hypothetical one? What conceivable point would there be to anything other than a literal resurrection?

What conceivable point is there is a bodily resurrection? Why is it necessary to Christianity? Jesus died on the cross for our sins so it was done.

“Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's just great, except Jesus allegedly said that he had flesh and bone... And walked through a wall and floated off into the sky.

Lets then look at John 5:24-25 again; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Where are all the people since Christ that believed in Jesus the Christ and the Word of God? Are they not buried in the ground, shall we exhume the graves and see if they are not there?

Look beyond the words, what are they saying to our Spirit! Christ is as see-able today as He was when He walked this earth 2000 years ago. Can you not see a body on the cross with the wounds in the side and appreciate the sacrifice that was offered?

Also The Body had already given up the Spirit on the Cross

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Then Mary dis not recognize Jesus in the Spirit John 20:14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”

Then Jesus gives very good advice and a deep meaning of the Resurrection; John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

Notice here that Christ is ascending to the 'Father' and to 'God' and the key here is the Resurrection now ties into the 'Father'.

Regards Tony

 

[Katzpur]

What conceivable point is there is a bodily resurrection? Why is it necessary to Christianity? Jesus died on the cross for our sins so it was done.

Well, I guess if you're content with that, okay. Personally, I live for the moment I will be able to throw my arms around my parents again. And since my husband is now 74, and will probably die before I do, I am so grateful that we'll be able to embrace again after I lose him. And my pets... What would heaven be without my feeling their soft fur and little cold, wet noses again? Of course, I am unspeakably grateful for the fact that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Him and paid the price for them. But I don't believe that's all He did. I believe He also made it possible for me to have a perfect, immortal body, and enjoy the presence of my loved ones forever.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I guess if you're content with that, okay. Personally, I live for the moment I will be able to throw my arms around my parents again. And since my husband is now 74, and will probably die before I do, I am so grateful that we'll be able to embrace again after I lose him. And my pets... What would heaven be without my feeling their soft fur and little cold, wet noses again? Of course, I am unspeakably grateful for the fact that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Him and paid the price for them. But I don't believe that's all He did. I believe He also made it possible for me to have a perfect, immortal body, and enjoy the presence of my loved ones forever.

Could we not consider, that in Spirit, you already have the connections you talk about?

Would any of those Loves replace the Love you now have for Jesus the Christ and consider you have only ever met Christ in the Spirit?

"(1 Corinthians 2:9-14) However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”– {10} but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. {11} For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. {12} We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. {13} This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. {14} The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I guess if you're content with that, okay. Personally, I live for the moment I will be able to throw my arms around my parents again. And since my husband is now 74, and will probably die before I do, I am so grateful that we'll be able to embrace again after I lose him. And my pets... What would heaven be without my feeling their soft fur and little cold, wet noses again? Of course, I am unspeakably grateful for the fact that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Him and paid the price for them. But I don't believe that's all He did. I believe He also made it possible for me to have a perfect, immortal body, and enjoy the presence of my loved ones forever.

Baha’is also believe that we will have an immortal body, but it will not be a physical body; it will be a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm of existence. In short, we believe that when the physical body dies it remains dead, but the soul leaves the body and takes flight to the spiritual world, or heaven as it is often called, and it takes on a new form that it is best suited for. We cannot possibly understand what that will be like from this world but we do know that we will retain our individuality and our personality and pick up where we left off in this world and continue on a spiritual journey that is eternal...

Anyhow, we believe that we will be reunited with all those who have gone before us, family and friends... If you were a Christian you will see Jesus, a Baha’i will hopefully see Baha’u’llah, if we are worthy.

The problem of animals in the afterlife always bothered me because my 11 cats are my life and I have lost so many others over the years. Nowhere in the Baha’i Writings does it say that animals have a soul that survives death, but it says that have a spirit. I think that spirit lives on but there is no way to know for sure. My Christian friend who is also a cat lover told me that is not in the Bible. But that does not mean they won’t be there... If not, I want a return ticket.

My husband is 75 now and he is a lot older than me so if I think about I worry... But Billy Graham lived to be 99 so I hope for a miracle. We had no children and I have no other family except a much older brother so it would be tough to be alone, until I see him again.

Whereas we can never know the nature of the soul, there is a lot in the Baha’i Writings about the function of the soul and what happens to the soul after we die. However, there is nothing that describes what the spiritual world will be like. One reason is that the it is not something that can be put into words. We can no more understand it than a child in the womb world can understand what it will be like after it is born into this world, it is so different... Likewise, the spiritual world is so glorious that we are told another reason we are not given more information is that if we knew, we would not be able to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed. In short, this world is a dark and narrow place compared to the spiritual world. I cannot understand why anyone would want to spend eternity here.

 

[Neb]

Here is your statement again,

Christ the Son is Also the Father. Christ The Son resurected so He could come back and be the Father in His New Name, Baha'u'llah.

And this was my answer. That’s Sabellianism. It did NOT say “And the Word was the God” because if it did then it would contradict “And the Word was with the God”. Do you understand this?

IOW, “Christ the Son” could NOT have been “Also the Father” based on John 1:1 “And the Word was with the God” “and the Word was God”. It did not say “And the Word was the God” because it will contradict the 2nd clause of John 1:1, i.e., “And the Word was with the God.” So, I guess you did NOT understand my statement and gave me this answer instead

Do you understand all your rejections just parrot all those that rejected Jesus the Christ and all Gods Messengers of the past?

This is a perfect example of what a strawman argument is.

 

[Neb]

Why do you think that it needs to be spelled out in the Bible?

If baha'u'llah is not in the Bible then it does not exist, right? How many times I have to say this, Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac.

 

[Neb]

The prophecies are there and they were fulfilled.

"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17.

Christ is the fulfillment of what the law and the prophets were saying.

The last prophet of God was John the Baptist.

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." -Matthew 11:13.

Then God "has spoken to us by his Son"

“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” [cf. John 1:3]. –Hebrews 1:1-2”.

Sorry you can’t insert baha’u’llah here.

 

[Neb]

Only God knew who the Messiah would be

Exactly and that is Christ and it was written in the bible. I don't see Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha'u'llah as the Messiah in the bible, do you?

 

[Neb]

and the name had not been assigned at the time the Bible was written; but that is besides the point, that God does not make it that easy because God wants to differentiate between the sincere seeker and those who are not willing to look that hard.

Wrong! It's all over the Bible. Gave you this link already.

 

[Neb]

The fact that many people have made the claim to be a Messenger of God or the return of Christ does not prove that the claim of Baha’u’llah was false, logically speaking. It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to say that because most were false all were false.

You can accuse one guilty of the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization based on insufficient evidence but based on the bible the evidence is overwhelming or sufficient that Baha’u’llah is false.

 

[Neb]

So the fact that there have been many false prophets says nothing about Baha’u’llah... Logically speaking that is completely irrelevant... Did any of those false prophets do what Baha’u’llah did, write what He wrote, fulfill all the prophecies that He did? No, they did not. That is because they were false. It does not matter how many false prophets there have been. Unless you can prove that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet you cannot say He was false.

Did that already. You say

Baha'u'llah was a descendant of David.

but was not so baha’u’llah was a false prophet too. Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha’u’llah came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac.

 

[Neb]

That verse does not say anything about a last revelation from God to mankind.

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." -Matthew 11:13, ”but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,”-Hebrews 1:2. “Last days” refers to the days of the Messiah, i.e., the Christ and NOT baha'u'llah, as the last revelation of God to mankind and the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus is NOT about dealing with sin anymore like the first time where he dealt with sin with finality, “It is finished” -John 19:30.

“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” -Hebrews 9:28

Very clear it says: “not to bear sin, but to bring salvation” 1st COMING is about dealing with sin. The 2nd COMING is about salvation and judgement.

Sorry NO room for baha’u’llah here again.

 

[Neb]

No, it is a way of saying that people do not understand the Bible.
They have part of the truth but not all of the truth.

I do not think anyone fully understands the Bible and to say so is a bit arrogant.

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and will show thee great things, and difficult, which thou knowest not." Jeremiah 33:3

 

[Neb]

No, it is a way of saying that people do not understand the Bible.
They have part of the truth but not all of the truth.

I do not think anyone fully understands the Bible and to say so is a bit arrogant.

There is no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit had guided Christians and every reason to believe it hasn't.
Anyone filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit cannot deny a Manifestation of God such as Baha'u'llah.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already." -1 John 1:3

"Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world." 1John 4:4

It's very clear there are 2 spirits, right? Which one do you have?

 

[Neb]

I think the answer that Christians would give is even simpler... Baha'u'llah can't be the Messiah because he is not Jesus.

It even complicates things with this one

Christ the Son is Also the Father.

Christ The Son resurected

so He could come back and be the Father in His New Name, Baha'u'llah.

Tony said: “Christ The Son resurected” while the OP says:

So did Christ really rise from the dead and what's the evidence He did?

Yes OP, according to your fellow Baha'i Faith, Tony Bristow-Stagg, “Christ The Son resurected”.

 

[CG Didymus]

How could I possibly ever know that? And I have not even read the whole story, just bits and pieces, so I am not the best person to ask.

Send that prophecy my way and I will analyze it for you.

Let me try this again... Do you think the writers of the gospels believed the resurrection really happened? Not Abdu'l Baha's opinion, your opinion. So read it for yourself. It's not that many pages. One gospel or if you have time read the story in all four gospels. After you do that, then tell me if you think they were telling a symbolic story or a story they thought really took place?

The prophecy from Matthew 24:

Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
​

Does this all fit the years previous to the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Here's some more:

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
​

Some of these verses I've seen used by Baha'is, especially the verses that come after this about the sun darkened and stars falling. But, really, all the things mentioned here go way beyond anything that has ever happened that could be seen as a fulfillment of these prophesies. Wars are still happening. Nations are still rising up against nations. So how is it that the time of the end has already taken place?

And as an added bonus here is Matthew 28 and part of the resurrection story:

28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
​

I'm not saying it's true. I'm just saying they presented it as true, and, therefore, I really do think they believed it was true. You and me can believe it is the most ridiculous thing in the world to believe, that it is not scientific, but they didn't have modern science to help them understand what was being told to them. They were told to "believe" and not to have doubts. What would you expect ancient people to do? They believed and put their trust in these words and made them the very Words of God... even though they were the written opinions of men that most of us doubt were even eye witnesses. But even if they were eye witnesses, wouldn't we still doubt them? I think so. Most of us think it is all myth and fantasy and don't want it to be the literal truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just to keep the record straight, Jesus might have said he was flesh and bone but Jesus never said that He floated off into the sky. Those verses are in Acts.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciple saw a body go up. That fits perfectly with the Baha’i interpretation:

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God, so Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

No the record is still crooked. Baha'is have said the body of Jesus was dead and buried and stayed dead. This, alleged, appearance of Jesus came after that, and he says to touch him and see that he is flesh and bone. I can't believe you say you haven't read all this, yet you keep quoting parts of it? What's going on? Have you read the resurrection story or not? Anyway, the flesh and bone Jesus, whoever that was, is supposedly the same one that floats off to space. If it was only the spirit that rose, then what happened to the flesh and bone resurrected body? Did it die too? So maybe there is two bodies? Maybe like some in Islam believe that there was a body double. That could explain part of this. What do you think. In fact, what is the Baha'i interpretation of the Quran verse that says that they didn't kill Jesus? I suppose you probably mean his spirit. I hope not. That is way too easy. Everything is either the "spirit" or "symbolic". And with that Baha'i can explain away everything. But for me, that makes all the Scriptures deceitful. They said things as if literal, but they meant it symbolically. That is a dirty trick to play on ancient people, 'cause they thought they were being told the truth.