Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[CG Didymus]

I know that is their answer but that does not mean they are right.

Jews do not even believe that Jesus was a Prophet and they are reading Torah scriptures that are more authentic than the NT.

The Jews are wrong of course because Jesus was a Prophet of God. That just demonstrates how badly people can misinterpret their scriptures.

The only religion that can bring it all together is the Baha'i Faith, let's just face it.

That's an interesting thing to say. Why is the Torah more authentic than the NT? How about the rest of Jewish Scriptures, especially the "Oral Torah", the Talmud? But authentic? Like Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, Samson and his long hair, Jonah and the big fish, the Hebrews crossing the sea and the sea closing in on the Egyptian army? Authentic? That sounds like legend and myth? Or do you mean authentic myth and legend, whereas the NT has some false legend and myth? Either way, it is not the inerrant word of God. It is just words. Nice spiritual stories that were not to be taken literally.

Oh, and one more thing. Some Baha'is say that it was Ishmael not Isaac that Abraham took to be sacrificed. That's a major error that involves a couple of chapters in Genesis. Some Baha'is have said that it was just a scribal error to have mistakenly switched the names. But in Genesis, Ishmael and his mother are sent away before Abraham takes Isaac away to be sacrificed. That's not a small change. That would have to be on purpose and all the previous copies that had Ishmael would have to be destroyed. And all future copies would have had to have Isaac. One scribe could not have done all of that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes OP, according to your fellow Baha'i Faith, Tony Bristow-Stagg, “Christ The Son resurected”.

Yes a Baha'i beleives the Bible is teaching a Spiritual Resurrection.

It is offered the proof for this can be found in the Bible.

Regards Tony

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

Yes a Baha'i beleives the Bible is teaching a Spiritual Resurrection.

It is offered the proof for this can be found in the Bible.

Regards Tony

What are these proofs?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What are these proofs?

For this Material World, it is the the Word Attributed to Christ that Spiritual understanding would be supported by our scientific mind.

God doeth as He willeth. History has shown that God has never altered the Laws of Nature on a scale that would compel man to believe, without the ability to use heart felt free will. Any mass event has always been part of Nature, a lot of them magnified as a result of our neglect in implementing Gods Laws. These Laws are tired to Natural Laws, such as earthquakes, pests and plagues etc.

The Greatest Proof are these passages;

John 6:63 "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life."

Matthew 11:13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear.…"

It is obvious from these two passages that it is the former Attributes of the Spirit seen in Elijah, that was returned in John and John was not Elijah in the Flesh. As such it is the Spirit that Resurrects.

Whatever was seen by Mary and the Disciples was an event that cement their hearts in the Spirit of the Love of Christ, to prepare us as It was to happen again in the future;

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts."

Elijah always comes first.

Luke 1:17 "And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Lets then look at John 5:24-25 again; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Where are all the people since Christ that believed in Jesus the Christ and the Word of God? Are they not buried in the ground, shall we exhume the graves and see if they are not there?

Look beyond the words, what are they saying to our Spirit! Christ is as see-able today as He was when He walked this earth 2000 years ago. Can you not see a body on the cross with the wounds in the side and appreciate the sacrifice that was offered?

Also The Body had already given up the Spirit on the Cross

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Then Mary dis not recognize Jesus in the Spirit John 20:14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”

Then Jesus gives very good advice and a deep meaning of the Resurrection; John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

Notice here that Christ is ascending to the 'Father' and to 'God' and the key here is the Resurrection now ties into the 'Father'.

Regards Tony

Everyone here has their beliefs and keeps trying to say things that support those beliefs. But, most of the time, answers miss the point of the question. My question is the resurrected Jesus allegedly said that he had flesh and bone. For Baha'is the whole resurrection story has to be explained in a symbolic way, so what is the symbolism about him saying that he had flesh and bone?

But, since the writers of the gospel said that he had flesh and bone and was not a ghost. For me it sounds like they totally believed Jesus came back to life. Why and how could they believe that if it never happened? How could they come up with the whole story about people going to the empty tomb and then the appearances, if it never happened? The story does not sound symbolic. They wrote it as if it had really taken place. If it never happened... then who and why did they make up this elaborate story? The gospel writers? The traditions pasted down from the Apostles? Where did it come from?

And, if the true explanation is Abdu'l Baha's, why not say that? What would be the problem with saying the Apostles were down in the dumps, but after three days they got their faith back and started spreading the love that Jesus taught? Why the phony story? What did it accomplish but to mislead Christians into thinking Jesus had come back to life?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For Baha'is the whole resurrection story has to be explained in a symbolic way, so what is the symbolism about him saying that he had flesh and bone?

We are told to meditate om whata each aspect in the Material world acheives in this reality. By those thoughts we discern the Spiritual connections and undérstandings.

Bone Gives Support, Flesh gives shape. Then we can further consider what bone and flesh are to find more spirirual insights.

Can you see a connection?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that a divine being could not do this (since, obviously, a mortal being couldn't)?

The Baha'i explanation from one of their infallible teachers, Abdu'l Baha, is in Trailblazers post 1163. I don't see how it makes sense with the gospel narrative. Tony keeps trying to focus on the spirit side of things. He keeps saying that the flesh amounts to nothing... it is the spirit that gives life. So everything about the resurrection for Baha'is has to be explained as symbolic. I've never seen a complete explanation of the whole resurrection story by any Baha'i.

If they say that Jesus' spirit is what rose, then why did he say he had flesh and bone and was not a ghost? They'll probably wiggle around answering that question directly. Ironically, Baha'is do believe Jesus was a "special" being, a divine manifestation. But, apparently to them, all "manifestations" appear in mortal human bodies. So all of them die, but their spirits live on. But how is that different than what they say about all people?

Jesus is presented in the NT as something beyond being a mortal human being. The NT makes him out to be some kind of god/man. Baha'is can't have that. He can't still be alive in some supernatural, glorified body. They have said many times that Jesus' body is somewhere in Jerusalem dead and buried. For me, I don't know anything about any religion for sure, but I find it interesting and worth looking into... and questioning every little claim made by a religion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus is presented in the NT as something beyond being a mortal human being. The NT makes him out to be some kind of god/man. Baha'is can't have that. He can't still be alive in some supernatural, glorified body. They have said many times that Jesus' body is somewhere in Jerusalem dead and buried. For me, I don't know anything about any religion for sure, but I find it interesting and worth looking into... and questioning every little claim made by a religion.

When asked the question, what did Peter reply as to who Jesus was?

It is on that reply, that all of Christianity stands and all events understood.

Christ 'Annointed One'!

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

We are told to meditate om whata each aspect in the Material world acheives in this reality. By those thoughts we discern the Spiritual connections and undérstandings.

Bone Gives Support, Flesh gives shape. Then we can further consider what bone and flesh are to find more spirirual insights.

Can you see a connection?

Regards Tony

Why would Jesus say to touch and see that he is real and have flesh and bone and is not a ghost, if it was all symbolic? Plus, this is the supposed resurrected Jesus saying this. Sure you can make up all sorts of symbolic answers, but it this the real Baha'i truth or your best meditated upon guess? I know you don't believe this, but to me you're making the whole NT and Bible a symbolic fantasy. I've said this so many times to Adrian. It makes it nothing more than religious myth and legend. Sure it has great spiritual lessons, but so does other mythical stories. Why say it is true on one hand and say it is "symbolic" on the other? Because what you are really doing is saying it is a bunch of make believe, a work of fiction.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would Jesus say to touch and see that he is real and have flesh and bone and is not a ghost, if it was all symbolic? Plus, this is the supposed resurrected Jesus saying this. Sure you can make up all sorts of symbolic answers, but it this the real Baha'i truth or your best meditated upon guess? I know you don't believe this, but to me you're making the whole NT and Bible a symbolic fantasy. I've said this so many times to Adrian. It makes it nothing more than religious myth and legend. Sure it has great spiritual lessons, but so does other mythical stories. Why say it is true on one hand and say it is "symbolic" on the other? Because what you are really doing is saying it is a bunch of make believe, a work of fiction.

What are we being asked to touch with? Heart or fingers, what use are fingers in the acceptance of Christ?

Use the balance ofd Science as to what is material and what is obviously spiritual.

Sorry now at Church.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

When asked the question, what did Peter reply as to who Jesus was?

It is on that reply, that all of Christianity stands and all events understood.

Christ 'Annointed One'!

Regards Tony

Yeah, but then the NT writers claim that Thomas called him Lord and God. I give up. You win. It's all myth. I'm going to go watch an old episode of Star Trek right now. They have people appearing and disappearing in that story too. And it does line up with science... science fiction. Something that I believe in.

 

[CG Didymus]

Exactly and that is Christ and it was written in the bible. I don't see Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha'u'llah as the Messiah in the bible, do you?

I wouldn't be so sure. What if his name means something like Lord God Almighty? But that's okay. If it doesn't he could always change it to mean that.

 

[CG Didymus]

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." -Matthew 11:13, ”but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,”-Hebrews 1:2. “Last days” refers to the days of the Messiah, i.e., the Christ and NOT baha'u'llah, as the last revelation of God to mankind and the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus is NOT about dealing with sin anymore like the first time where he dealt with sin with finality, “It is finished” -John 19:30.

“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” -Hebrews 9:28

Very clear it says: “not to bear sin, but to bring salvation” 1st COMING is about dealing with sin. The 2nd COMING is about salvation and judgement.

Sorry NO room for baha’u’llah here again.

Wait... does that say "Christ" and then say "he" will appear a second time? No, that can't be right, because we not only need room for Baha'u'llah in there, but for Muhammad and the Bab too. So the correct reading should be, "Christ did his thing, but it wasn't finished and it wasn't enough. Another will come in Arabia to bring some more teachings. And then two more will appear in Persia to straighten out the mess that will be made by the followers of these and other previous religions, because of their misinterpretations and adding their traditions to the original teachings."

 

[Katzpur]

Everyone here has their beliefs and keeps trying to say things that support those beliefs. But, most of the time, answers miss the point of the question. My question is the resurrected Jesus allegedly said that he had flesh and bone. For Baha'is the whole resurrection story has to be explained in a symbolic way, so what is the symbolism about him saying that he had flesh and bone?

I did not realize that about the Baha'i Faith. What on earth could point would there have been to Jesus pointing out that He had flesh and bones if He didn't? That just makes no sense at all. I've heard Jehovah's Witnesses say that He was either just pretending to have them or that He may have had them at the moment in time when He pointed out that He did, but that He was really just a spirit. If people don't believe the Bible to be the word of God, fine. But how can they say it's the word of God but can't be relied on for an accurate account of something so monumental as the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes a Baha'i beleives the Bible is teaching a Spiritual Resurrection.

It is offered the proof for this can be found in the Bible.

Regards Tony

Wait a minute... to get resurrected doesn't something have to be dead? Was Jesus dead spiritually and got resurrected spiritually? But you know these crazy Christians. They use a Psalm to say that the body of Jesus would not see corruption. Since the spirit of Jesus is made of immortal stuff, they foolishly claim that his fleshly body didn't see corruption. Crazy, isn't it. How could God, who made bodies out of dirt, make a dead body come back to life? It's not scientific... Not like making bodies out of dirt and breathing the spirit of life into them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not realize that about the Baha'i Faith. What on earth could point would there have been to Jesus pointing out that He had flesh and bones if He didn't? That just makes no sense at all. I've heard Jehovah's Witnesses say that He was either just pretending to have them or that He may have had them at the moment in time when He pointed out that He did, but that He was really just a spirit. If people don't believe the Bible to be the word of God, fine. But how can they say it's the word of God but can't be relied on for an accurate account of something so monumental as the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

That's the whole thing right there. You got it. It's a tough debate, because they believe in some things as literal or historical, but others they were not to be taken literally... like the resurrection. Did you read Trailblazers post 1163? That's a big issue for me. If that's what happened... why the whole, supposedly, fictitious, opps, I mean "symbolic" story about the resurrection?'

 

[Trailblazer]

If baha'u'llah is not in the Bible then it does not exist, right? How many times I have to say this, Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac.

Baha'u'llah was not descended through Ishmael.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

Baha'u'llah means Glory of God in Arabic so Baha'u'llah is all throughout the Bible. For example, from Thief in the Night:

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

“And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).

"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17.

Christ is the fulfillment of what the law and the prophets were saying.

The last prophet of God was John the Baptist.

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." -Matthew 11:13.

Then God "has spoken to us by his Son"

“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” [cf. John 1:3]. –Hebrews 1:1-2”.

Sorry you can’t insert baha’u’llah here.

I do not need to insert Baha’u’llah in the Bible. He came long after the Bible was revealed and he got His Own revelation from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly and that is Christ and it was written in the bible. I don't see Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha'u'llah as the Messiah in the bible, do you?

Yes, Baha'u'llah is mentioned in the Bible, whenever the Glory of God, the Comforter, or the Spirit of truth are mentioned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: and the name had not been assigned at the time the Bible was written; but that is besides the point, that God does not make it that easy because God wants to differentiate between the sincere seeker and those who are not willing to look that hard.

Neb said: Wrong! It's all over the Bible. Gave you this link already.

If the Bible is right, it could not be in the Bible unless Jesus got a new name:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.