Role of Mahdi in Islam

[InvestigateTruth]

"The Baha'i believe Jesus was crucified and died on the cross."

Jesus told those he preached to of one of his proofs.
Jesus said that the only sign that would be given to his generation was the sign of Jonah.
Matthew 12 v.40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The significant point here is that Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish and recovered to continue his mision.

Well, Baha'is believe these verses are figurative and interpret them spiritually. The way I interpret these verses is, for example, after Jesus was crucified, for Three days, His cause was dead. The Disciples were troubled, and there wasn't anyone to teach and spread the Gospel. But after Three Days, the Disciples Raised to Teach the cause of Jesus, Hence, the Reality of Christ raised again.
The Bible calls Disciples, the Body of Christ:
"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it."
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Likewise, I understand the story of Jonah being in the belly of Fish, to have a similar Figurative meaning. It must have been the cause of Jonah that was dead for Three days, like the cause of Jesus. This was pictured as "Being in belly of Fish"
The Prophets had visions and dreams, and I believe these dreams or visions, must have an interpretation. For example consider, the story of Prophet Joseph, and the dream of 7 fat cows being eaten by 7 slim cows. Prophet Joseph interpreted that in a figurative way, not exactly literal.
Genesis 41:20 The lean, ugly cows ate up the seven fat cows that came up first.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Yes, He did. He did that both in His Writings and also, as recorded Historical Evidence.

It is recorded from Him:


"I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily, I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word, and to pledge allegiance to My person."
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 17-34







The Name of His revelation is 'Bayan', which is mostly written in the style of Quran. In the Book Bayan God addressed Him (the Bab):

"He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islám that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him (The Bab) Who is your Qá’im, your Guide, your Mihdí, your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things.

...O MY servants! This is God’s appointed Day which the merciful Lord hath promised you in His Book; wherefore, in very truth, glorify ye abundantly the name of God while treading the Path of the Most Great Remembrance... "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 139







Yes, there are many.
For example in the above quote from Bayan, the part that says:
"hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised"

In Quran there is a verse that aludes to "Bayan" as a Book that God teaches, the same way He taught the Quran.

Likewise consider His words:
"I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked"

According to the Hadithes, the duration of Ummah of Muhammad is 1000 years, and then the Promised One comes. The Bab appeared exactly 1000 years after Islam Revelation.



Likewise in Bayan, in the same style of Quran which God talks:

"The Bayán is in truth Our conclusive proof for all created things, and all the peoples of the world are powerless before the revelation of its verses. It enshrineth the sum total of all the Scriptures, whether of the past or of the future, even as Thou art the Repository of all Our proofs in this Day. We cause whomsover We desire to be admitted into the gardens of our most holy, most sublime Paradise. Thus is divine revelation inaugurated in each Dispensation at Our behest. We are truly the supreme Ruler. Indeed no religion shall We ever inaugurate unless it be renewed in the days to come. This is a promise We solemnly have made. Verily We are supreme over all things... "

- Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p.74-75

I am looking for the Bab's own writing that says I am the Imam Mahdi Muslims are waiting for and I fulfill the prophecies in these these manners. Do you understand the difference between what you have provided and what I requested?

It seems that he has claimed to be a guide, and to have received revelation equivalent to the Quran. Has he stated he is a Prophet of God and sent by God as the Imam Mahdi or second coming of Jesus(as) in his own words directly?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am looking for the Bab's own writing that says I am the Imam Mahdi Muslims are waiting for and I fulfill the prophecies in these these manners. Do you understand the difference between what you have provided and what I requested?

It seems that he has claimed to be a guide, and to have received revelation equivalent to the Quran. Has he stated he is a Prophet of God and sent by God as the Imam Mahdi ...

It seems you agree that He claimed to have received a revelation like Quran.
So, I don't see, how claiming to receive a revelation from God, is different from claiming to be a Messenger?
What I had quoted in my previous post above, was from His own writings, with the underline.

"I render thanks and yield praise unto God for having been chosen by Him as the Exponent of His Cause in bygone days and in the days to come; there is none other God save Him, the Glorified, the All-Praised, the Ever-Abiding. Whatever is in the heavens and on the earth is His and through Him are we guided aright. "

"God beareth Me witness, I was not a man of learning, for I was trained as a merchant. In the year sixty God graciously infused my soul with the conclusive evidences and weighty knowledge which characterize Him Who is the Testimony of God—may peace be upon Him—until finally in that year I proclaimed God’s hidden Cause and unveiled its well-guarded Pillar, in such wise that no one could refute it." The Bab
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 11-17

or second coming of Jesus(as) in his own words directly?

No, the Bab did not claim He was the second coming of Christ, it was Baha'u'llah who claimed to have fullfied that prophecy. The Bab said, the next Messenger of God, who is the promised one, would shortly follow His own revelation.
Then 9 years after the Bab, Baha'u'llah received His own revelation and fulfilled that prophecy, including the Prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ.

 

[Rational_Mind]

It seems you agree that He claimed to have received a revelation like Quran.
So, I don't see, how claiming to receive a revelation from God, is different from claiming to be a Messenger?
What I had quoted in my previous post above, was from His own writings, with the underline.

"I render thanks and yield praise unto God for having been chosen by Him as the Exponent of His Cause in bygone days and in the days to come; there is none other God save Him, the Glorified, the All-Praised, the Ever-Abiding. Whatever is in the heavens and on the earth is His and through Him are we guided aright. "

"God beareth Me witness, I was not a man of learning, for I was trained as a merchant. In the year sixty God graciously infused my soul with the conclusive evidences and weighty knowledge which characterize Him Who is the Testimony of God—may peace be upon Him—until finally in that year I proclaimed God’s hidden Cause and unveiled its well-guarded Pillar, in such wise that no one could refute it." The Bab
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 11-17




No, the Bab did not claim He was the second coming of Christ, it was Baha'u'llah who claimed to have fullfied that prophecy. The Bab said, the next Messenger of God, who is the promised one, would shortly follow His own revelation.
Then 9 years after the Bab, Baha'u'llah received His own revelation and fulfilled that prophecy, including the Prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ.

I have repetitively read in the Holy Quran that Prophets openly make the claim to the people that they are Prophets of God. So could you show me a statement of the Bab openly announcing that he is a Prophet of God without any vagueness. In the Quran this is what we find, they openly call themselves Prophets not exclusively guides. Do you understand what I am requesting?

O ‘ABDU’S-ṢÁḤIB! Verily God and every created thing testify that there is none other God but Me, the Almighty, the Best Beloved…

Also wondering if I am misunderstanding this quote from: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 31-34

I was looking directly for his writing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have repetitively read in the Holy Quran that Prophets openly make the claim to the people that they are Prophets of God. So could you show me a statement of the Bab openly announcing that he is a Prophet of God without any vagueness. In the Quran this is what we find, they openly call themselves Prophets not exclusively guides.

I think what I quoted is very clear to me. More clear than any other previous Messengers.

Do you understand what I am requesting?

Please show me a similar statement from Prophet Muhammad that "He openly made His claim". Then I try to find similar.

Also wondering if I am misunderstanding this quote from: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 31-34

I was looking directly for his writing.

That link is from the direct writings of the Bab. What is it that you think is not?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I think what I quoted is very clear to me. More clear than any other previous Messengers.

Please show me a similar statement from Prophet Muhammad that "He openly made His claim". Then I try to find similar.


That link is from the direct writings of the Bab. What is it that you think is not?

Of the many I will state the most obvious that I want you to match as said by the Bab himself.

"There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger"

There are many other times he stated who he is:

"I am a messenger of God and my function is only to point out the way of truth and falsehood to you and to expound to you that which would benefit you and that which would do you harm. I do affirm, however, that if you will respond to the call of God, He will, in due course, make you heirs of the bounties of this life as well as of the hereafter."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Of the many I will state the most obvious that I want you to match as said by the Bab himself.

"There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger"

There are many other times he stated who he is:

"I am a messenger of God and my function is only to point out the way of truth and falsehood to you and to expound to you that which would benefit you and that which would do you harm. I do affirm, however, that if you will respond to the call of God, He will, in due course, make you heirs of the bounties of this life as well as of the hereafter."

But if I understood you correctly, you were demanding from direct writings of the Bab.
So, likewise, please provide a verse that Muhammad directly wrote Himself.
Are these two examples, written directly by Muhammad, or are they Hadithes that are attributed to Him?

 

[Rational_Mind]

But if I understood you correctly, you were demanding from direct writings of the Bab.
So, likewise, please provide a verse that Muhammad directly wrote Himself.
Are these two examples, written directly by Muhammad, or are they Hadithes that are attributed to Him?

This is a statement that is known to have come out of his mouth. Also the quote is from a Hadith regarding an incidence of the Quraish.

What I am asking is if you have any statement that is known to come out the the mouth of the Bab that he identified himself as a "Prophet" or "Messenger".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is a statement that is known to have come out of his mouth. Also the quote is from a Hadith regarding an incidence of the Quraish.

What I am asking is if you have any statement that is known to come out the the mouth of the Bab that he identified himself as a "Prophet" or "Messenger".

I know that in His Writings, He was alluded as being a Messenger and a Prophet.
I know He verbally have announced He is the Mahdi, the Promised One.


There are just too many Passages from His Writings. In these verses He is alluded as a Prophet:

"Thy Lord hath never raised up a prophet in the past who failed to summon the people to His Lord, and today is truly similar to the times of old, were ye to ponder over the verses revealed by God."

In The following passage, God addresses people, and telling them that, He sent down a new Book to His Servent (The Bab)

"O people of the city! Ye have disbelieved your Lord. If ye are truly faithful to MuHammad, the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets, and if ye follow His Book, the Qur’án, which is free from error, then here is the like of it—this Book, which We have, in truth and by the leave of God, sent down unto Our Servant."



In this Passages, Also, He askes people to Worship God, and follow the Bab, who is the streight Path:

"Verily God is My Lord and your true Lord, therefore worship Him, while this Path from ‘Alí [the Báb] is none but the straight Path in the estimation of your Lord."

"Take heed not to worship anyone but God, He Who is My Lord and your Lord. "



In This Passage He is alluded to be a Messenger:

"Is it not strange that a Messenger should have come to you with a Book, and ye, while confessing your powerlessness, refused to follow the Faith of God which He had brought, and ye persisted in your disbelief? "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb

 

[Rational_Mind]

I know that in His Writings, He was alluded as being a Messenger and a Prophet.
I know He verbally have announced He is the Mahdi, the Promised One.


There are just too many Passages from His Writings. In these verses He is alluded as a Prophet:

"Thy Lord hath never raised up a prophet in the past who failed to summon the people to His Lord, and today is truly similar to the times of old, were ye to ponder over the verses revealed by God."

In The following passage, God addresses people, and telling them that, He sent down a new Book to His Servent (The Bab)

"O people of the city! Ye have disbelieved your Lord. If ye are truly faithful to MuHammad, the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets, and if ye follow His Book, the Qur’án, which is free from error, then here is the like of it—this Book, which We have, in truth and by the leave of God, sent down unto Our Servant."



In this Passages, Also, He askes people to Worship God, and follow the Bab, who is the streight Path:

"Verily God is My Lord and your true Lord, therefore worship Him, while this Path from ‘Alí [the Báb] is none but the straight Path in the estimation of your Lord."

"Take heed not to worship anyone but God, He Who is My Lord and your Lord. "



In This Passage He is alluded to be a Messenger:

"Is it not strange that a Messenger should have come to you with a Book, and ye, while confessing your powerlessness, refused to follow the Faith of God which He had brought, and ye persisted in your disbelief? "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb

So he lived his entire life and never explicitly stated he is a Prophet/Messenger? If he thought he was a Prophet/Messenger he must have explicitly stated such, could you please find me such a passage?

Did he invite Kings or Queens to faith as is known of other Prophets? How did he address himself when sending a letter.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So he lived his entire life and never explicitly stated he is a Prophet/Messenger?

The People that the Bab was sent to, commonly were Shia Moslems. They were expecting "Mahdi" or "Qaim". The Bab declaired Himself as The Promised One, Qaim, the Mahdi, as those people were expecting. His writings clearly shows He claimed He has that mission from God.
I think, the fact that He claimed He recieved a revelation from God, and He had a Book from God is sufficient and very Explicit and clear to see He claimed to be a Messenger of God.
There is no such a requirement as the Messenger of God must say: "I am Messenger of God" or otherwise is not. In fact let's remember, it is God who determines what the Messenger must say, and how He should declair His mission.


And I would ask you, how you interpret what He wrote:

"Thy Lord hath never raised up a prophet in the past who failed to summon the people to His Lord, and today is truly similar to the times of old, were ye to ponder over the verses revealed by God."

I think the key is "today is truly similar to the times of old". Which means today also, the Lord has raised a new prophet. Then the next part "ponder over the verses revealed by God", clearly states, His verses are from God.
How much more clear than that?

Have you found anything in the direct writings of Muhammad and Jesus if they worte "I am a Messenger of God"? I don't think the Hadithes are reliable.
There are many Muslims who do not use hadithes, and many others who do not agree which hadith is authentic. You know about Shia and Sunni view.

Did he invite Kings or Queens to faith as is known of other Prophets? How did he address himself when sending a letter.

The Messengers address people the way God asks them. Every Prophet was sent to a different people with a different mission.
The main Mission of the Bab was to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah. "The Bab" means the gate, or the door, and His intension was to say, His mission is like a gate to a greater revelation, coming after Him; Baha'u'llah. This can be seen in His writings clearly.
The mission of the Bab was very short, more than 6 years, but less than 7.
Baha'u'llah recieved His revelation 9 years from beginning of the revelation of the Bab.
Baha'u'llah addressed many kings of the World.

 

[Rational_Mind]

The People that the Bab was sent to, commonly were Shia Moslems. They were expecting "Mahdi" or "Qaim". The Bab declaired Himself as The Promised One, Qaim, the Mahdi, as those people were expecting. His writings clearly shows He claimed He has that mission from God.
I think, the fact that He claimed He recieved a revelation from God, and He had a Book from God is sufficient and very Explicit and clear to see He claimed to be a Messenger of God.
There is no such a requirement as a person must say: "I am Messenger of God" or otherwise is not. In fact let's remember, it is God who determines what the Messenger must say, and how He should declair His mission.

The duty of a Messenger is to let the people know he is a Messenger from God. If he has failed to state this clearly it is on that persons head. Are you really attempting to justify why an apparent claimant of Prophethood never once explicitly referred to himself as a Prophet. I would advise that you rather look harder into his writings or saying and produce something.

I cannot imagine how a Prophet of God would never identify himself as such. How can one given such an important task forget to announce to people that he is a Prophet explicitly.

And if they had believed in Allah and this Prophet, and in that which has been revealed to him, they would not have taken them as their friends, but many of them are disobedient. [5:82]

This quote directly refers to the recipient of revelation as a Prophet.

Say, ‘O mankind! truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no God but He. He gives life, and He causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet, the Immaculate one, who believes in Allah and His words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.’ [7:159]

A direct commandment from God of what he is asked to say in the Holy Quran.

But if they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guardian over them. Thy duty is only to convey the Message. And truly when We cause man to taste of mercy from Us, he rejoices therein. But if an evil befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, then lo! man is ungrateful. [42:49]

Just imagine the duty given and the person says a whole lot of things rights religious books and laws but fails to mention his duty.

I do not think any Muslim would reject and say someone altered Hadith to make the Holy Prophet (saw) identify himself as a Prophet. So quite frankly your argument is invalid.

Even so I want to see if you can manage to still attempt to justify after this:

“This is a message from Muhammad, son of Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt
Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers
defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that
displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from
their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion,
to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of
these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and
have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige
them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian it married to a Muslim, it
is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to
pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them
nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation of (Muslims) is to disobey the
covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
(Signed: Muhammad, the Messenger of God. ([Letters of the Messenger])

Still questioning authenticity: [youtube]u0SsRmC6O5k[/youtube]
The Holy Prophet Muhammad 's Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine in Mt. Sinai - YouTube
It was written in his lifetime.

And I would ask you, how you interpret what He wrote:

"Thy Lord hath never raised up a prophet in the past who failed to summon the people to His Lord, and today is truly similar to the times of old, were ye to ponder over the verses revealed by God."

I think the key is "today is truly similar to the times of old". Which means today also, the Lord has raised a new prophet. Then the next part "ponder over the verses revealed by God", clearly states, His verses are from God.
How much more clear than that?

Many Saints have predicted the coming of the Promised Messiah in the past. That did not make them Prophets. So this does not give an indication that the person themselves believes that he is a Prophet/Messenger. Why should a Prophet of God be fearful of clearly saying that he is a Prophet of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The duty of a Messenger is to let the people know he is a Messenger from God.

The duty of a Messenger is to give the message from God, the way, and how God asks Him, and the Bab clearly did that through His writings.
What you are missing is that, the Bab, spread His writings to many people.
When people saw His writings they imidiately recognized those are Divinely Inspired.
Read the History. There is a lot for you to know....to see the Message from The Bab's revelation.

The mission of the Bab was similar to John the Baptist. He appeared before the Promised One. Both of them sacrificed their lives. The Bab in the begining of His mission already said, He sacrificed His life for coming of Baha'u'llah (Remnant of God)

"O THOU Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake, and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 59

I cannot imagine how a Prophet of God would never identify himself as such. How can one given such an important task forget to announce to people that he is a Prophet explicitly.

It seems to me you have a different understanding regarding the verses of the Bab.
To me they clearly show, He claimed a divine revelation.

Baha'u'llah also later revealed that The Bab was a Messenger:

"...the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming. Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know. "
Tablet of Ahmad

Many Saints have predicted the coming of the Promised Messiah in the past. That did not make them Prophets. So this does not give an indication that the person themselves believes that he is a Prophet/Messenger.

The saints never claimed to recieve a Book like Quran. Hence the difference.
Can you show me a saint who claimed to have recieved a Revelation Like Quran from God?
Moreover, it is in Quran, that No One other than God can reveal verses like Quran. Hence, when the Bab revealed the verses like Quran, they must have come from God. Do you realize these?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why should a Prophet of God be fearful of clearly saying that he is a Prophet of God.

I think that might be your perception.
Let's look at the Trial of Jesus at court:

Luke 23:3-4
And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it. Then Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowds, “I find no guilt in this man.”

Note when they asked Jesus are you the King, He did not make a Clear reply to say "I am". He said, you say so. Then they let Him be free.

That does not mean He was scared.
Muhammad also for the first few years did not declair to everyone His Message. He did not tell to everyone He was a Messenger.

All these Messengers gradually revealed their station. it does not mean they were scared. They gradually revealed their station and mission, as people can accept. I see that as their Wisdom.

 

[Rational_Mind]

The duty of a Messenger is to give the message from God, the way, and how God asks Him, and the Bab clearly did that through His writings.
What you are missing is that, the Bab, spread His writings to many people.
When people saw His writings they imidiately recognized those are Divinely Inspired.
Read the History. There is a lot for you to know....to see the Message from The Bab's revelation.

Please read the History of when these revelations first came into the public eye. You are quite misinformed.
Given that they are held to be higher then the Holy Quran it must surely be a shame that the followers themselves never memorized read them day and night. It appears they were hidden from them until they were published against their own will. It is high questionable as to what happened between the revelation and finally coming to the public eye.

The mission of the Bab was similar to John the Baptist. He appeared before the Promised One. Both of them sacrificed their lives. The Bab in the begining of His mission already said, He sacrificed His life for coming of Baha'u'llah (Remnant of God)

"O THOU Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake, and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 59

Does not seem relevant to my discussion. Maybe you should clarify if you feel it is relevant.

It seems to me you have a different understanding regarding the verses of the Bab.
To me they clearly show, He claimed a divine revelation.

Baha'u'llah also later revealed that The Bab was a Messenger:

"...the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming. Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know. "
Tablet of Ahmad

Again this is not relevant. My question still remains how the Bab himself never referred to himself as a Messenger. Was he not aware or fearful of stating it explicitly?

The saints never claimed to recieve a Book like Quran. Hence the difference.
Can you show me a saint who claimed to have recieved a Revelation Like Quran from God?

You are missing the point. The Bab for some odd reason did not directly claim to be a Prophet even when addressing his people.

Yes he did indicate that a Prophet is coming but why didn't he clearly say he is one. Even if he did claim to be the recipient of revelation like of the Holy Quran then why did he never identify himself as a Prophet out of his own mouth like the Holy Prophet (saw) has known to have done day and night, in fact God instructed him in the Holy Quran to do such.

It seems like a huge shortcoming on his part, it appears God did not allow this person to do such for some reason you need to dwell into further. There are very small posts that exist in this Physical World, lets give an example of a King. Can you name one King who never identified himself as a King when addressing people he was given authority over. Now imagine the position of Prophethood, how could a Prophet of God make such a mistake.

Moreover, it is in Quran, that No One other than God can reveal verses like Quran. Hence, when the Bab revealed the verses like Quran, they must have come from God. Do you realize these?

The challenge of revealing verses of the like is much greater than you think. Will you accept any person who claims to be the recipient of revelation equivalent to the Holy Quran?

We have to check it ourselves. My first thought is what laws were given to these people after the Holy Prophet and how do they make sense as fitting into the world. When I study the teachings of the Holy Quran they are all complete and the verses connect to each other forming a tight web. This is not to be found in Bahai Scriptures. And given the fact that the laws themselves were rectified so soon is a clear indication of how weak they were. If indeed it was similar to the Holy Quran I would not find it to be so confusing even in its more denotative meanings.

There are so many questions that you have to see from my perspective first. What changes did he make to Islamic law which were needed?

I will make a post sometime next month in the break and address these concerns more directly by giving references.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please read the History of when these revelations first came into the public eye. You are quite misinformed.
Given that they are held to be higher then the Holy Quran it must surely be a shame that the followers themselves never memorized read them day and night. It appears they were hidden from them until they were published against their own will. It is high questionable as to what happened between the revelation and finally coming to the public eye.

As a matter of fact, the Bab was only 24 years old when He started revealing these verses.
Muhammad started stating His revelation Three years after He first recieved His revelation.

Does not seem relevant to my discussion. Maybe you should clarify if you feel it is relevant.

It is, so, you know the mission of the Bab, was to be sacrificed for the coming of Baha'u'llah. Just as the John Baptist was sacrificed before Jesus.

Again this is not relevant. My question still remains how the Bab himself never referred to himself as a Messenger. Was he not aware or fearful of stating it explicitly?

I simply disagree with you. He did say He was a Messenger through His Writings which I have already posted. If you do not see, such clear statements, I don't know???

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are so many questions that you have to see from my perspective first. What changes did he make to Islamic law which were needed?
.

again, the mission that was given to the Bab, was not meant to be a revelation to stay for a long. He mainly came to break the old laws of Islam, untill Baha'u'llah comes with New Laws.
So, his mission was revolutionary. He caused many Muslims to break from Islam, as He anounced, the End of Islam has arived. Then He said, soon, God will make manifest another greater revelation, and aksed His followers to obey the New Messenger. This is exactly what happend. Almost all the followers of the Bab, became followers of Baha'u'llah.

As a matter of fact, many Hadithes, stating the same thing. It is said, first Mahdi comes, the Christ would pray behind Him. This signifies that the Christ would be the follower of Mahdi, as Baha'u'llah also became one of the followers of the Bab. Then there are Hadithes that later, the Christ will lead. As Baha'u'llah became the Leading Messenger.
There are Hadithes that the Mahdi will lead for 7 years. The Bab also did not more than 7.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes he did indicate that a Prophet is coming but why didn't he clearly say he is one. Even if he did claim to be the recipient of revelation like of the Holy Quran then why did he never identify himself as a Prophet out of his own mouth like the Holy Prophet (saw) has known to have done day and night, in fact God instructed him in the Holy Quran to do such.

Did Muhammad say He is a Messenger right after He received His revelation?
Or waited Three years, to declair it in public?


As to why the Bab did not say verbally He is a Prophet, I don't know if I should agree with that statement. My understanding is, He gradually revealed His station, so the people can accept. Those people were expecting the 12th Imam.
Also, being an Imam in Shia Tradition can also mean a Prophet already. Abraham was a prophet and an Imam. In shia, Imam can have a higher station than a Prophet, so, when The Bab was claiming to be the Imam Mahdi, that claim was no less than claiming to be Prophet in the Shia society:
Imamat vs. Prophethood (Part I)

 

[Rational_Mind]

As a matter of fact, the Bab was only 24 years old when He started revealing these verses.
Muhammad started stating His revelation Three years after He first recieved His revelation.

You are very very very confused as to what revelation is. If you think revelation of the Holy Prophet(saw) is all contained in the Quran then you should study more. I am not sure what you mean by the 3 years please give reference so I can research.

Also this is still not RELEVANT.

It is, so, you know the mission of the Bab, was to be sacrificed for the coming of Baha'u'llah. Just as the John Baptist was sacrificed before Jesus.

Again, I cannot see how this explains why he never explicitly identified himself as a Prophet.

I simply disagree with you. He did say He was a Messenger through His Writings which I have already posted. If you do not see, such clear statements, I don't know???

You simply don't have the right to disagree that the Bab never called himself a messenger unless you can produce such a statement by him. I have brought up a fact. One cannot disagree on something of such nature.

A guide does not entail being a Messenger, neither does stating one is coming. Even receiving divine revelation does not make one a Prophet. As to the authenticity of the scriptures, I have already expressed my concern of why were they needed and how they do not appear to be in the likeness of the Quran.

It is for you to answer why a Messenger has never called himself as such.

 

[Rational_Mind]

again, the mission that was given to the Bab, was not meant to be a revelation to stay for a long. He mainly came to break the old laws of Islam, untill Baha'u'llah comes with New Laws.
So, his mission was revolutionary. He caused many Muslims to break from Islam, as He anounced, the End of Islam has arived. Then He said, soon, God will make manifest another greater revelation, and aksed His followers to obey the New Messenger. This is exactly what happend. Almost all the followers of the Bab, became followers of Baha'u'llah.

As a matter of fact, many Hadithes, stating the same thing. It is said, first Mahdi comes, the Christ would pray behind Him. This signifies that the Christ would be the follower of Mahdi, as Baha'u'llah also became one of the followers of the Bab. Then there are Hadithes that later, the Christ will lead. As Baha'u'llah became the Leading Messenger.
There are Hadithes that the Mahdi will lead for 7 years. The Bab also did not more than 7.

So he came purely to break laws with inferior replacement. So he came to break something working without giving a fix until another Prophet was to follow. If you can find me where this idea is supported by the Quran or something similar that John the Baptist did I want to see references. Like I said before, what did the new law, lets say of Baha'ullah fix of Islam. Why did he break Islam, what had become a problem in those times. What is the sharp contrast between Islamic laws and Bahai laws that was needed.