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Role of Mahdi in Islam

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Is there a single verse revealed to Bab that instucts to obey the "Messenger" and verses that say that this book has been revealed onto a "Messenger"?

I am not sure what you mean by "a single verse"
But, maybe you give some examples of how Quran presents the Messengers.


If my request is unreasonable please let me know. Because this is very straight forward and is contained in the Quran. If you say Quran has similarity to the revelations of Bab then I feel surely God would have instructed similarly.
I think you should make your request clear, by giving some examples from Quran, and show how consistently ALL The Messengers said the same thing, in the same way.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Bahá'u'lláh revealed that, the Báb, was the spiritual return of John the Baptist.:

"O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break."[101]

John the Baptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Baha'u'llah also revealed the Bab was from God, and He was the King of Messengers:

"And that the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming.
Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know."
Tablet of Ahmad



Thus the Revelation that came to Baha'u'llah confirmed the Bab, was a Messenger, same as previous Ones. That is how God confirms His previous Messengers. The same way He did in Quran!

So Baha'u'llah confirmed that the Bab is a Messenger when Bab himself never was able to substantiate such a claim. All he ever said was somebody is coming. So lets not get confused here. As far as text is concern, we have nothing is writing that was said or revealed to Bab that calls himself a Messenger. This term which is so frequently used in the Holy Quran is completely alien to Babs sayings and revelations to the point that he did not refer to himself with such a title.

What your opinion on him differs from what he claimed himself to be. You can believe what you like but there is no point continuing unless you can produce something that shows the Bab explicitly claimed to be a "Messenger". If it seems like an outrageous request you may want to calm down and think it over.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I am not sure what you mean by "a single verse"
But, maybe you give some examples of how Quran presents the Messengers.



I think you should make your request clear, by giving some examples from Quran, and show how consistently ALL The Messengers said the same thing, in the same way.

Just search the term "Messenger" in the Quran and show me where it has been used in the same sense to clearly label the recipient of the revelation a Messenger like it is in the case of other Prophets. ALL Messengers came to people and identified themselves as Messengers (stating the obvious). The Bab seems to have left no evidence of doing such when we have his scriptures, writings, and sayings today.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Just search the term "Messenger" in the Quran and show me where it has been used in the same sense to clearly label the recipient of the revelation a Messenger like it is in the case of other Prophets. ALL Messengers came to people and identified themselves as Messengers (stating the obvious). The Bab seems to have left no evidence of doing such when we have his scriptures, writings, and sayings today.

I have already put many verses from the Bab, clearly stating He is a Messenger from God. I believe other Messengers did the same way. But if you say they did differently than the Bab, show me some verses from Quran how they did.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I have already put many verses from the Bab, clearly stating He is a Messenger from God. I believe other Messengers did the same way. But if you say they did differently than the Bab, show me some verses from Quran how they did.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is something that you only see. For someone who has not accepted Bab as a Messenger it is not evident. Moreover, I have quoted in writing that Bahai's believed Bab and Baha'ullah were not Messengers but a greater status.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
So Baha'u'llah confirmed that the Bab is a Messenger when Bab himself never was able to substantiate such a claim.

No, the Bab Message is clear that He has a Message from God.
Baha'u'llah reminded people about previous Messengers, just as other Messengers like Muhammad reminded of previous Messengers.





All he ever said was somebody is coming.

That's not All.
He made the way prepared for Baha'u'llah, just as the John did for Jesus.
Have you ever thought why according to Prophecies, there should appear Mahdi then Christ?



So lets not get confused here. As far as text is concern, we have nothing is writing that was said or revealed to Bab that calls himself a Messenger.

The Bab came to fulfill prophecies.
According to Prophecies when the Promised One comes, he would present Himslef as Mahdi, Qaim, and the Lord. Offcourse that does not mean, He won't be a Messenger. But the title and the Term that is used was not to be Messenger.
Just Like jesus. According to Jewish Prophecies the Promised One would be Messiah, and Jesus presented Himself as the Messiah, Not a Messenger.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is something that you only see. For someone who has not accepted Bab as a Messenger it is not evident. Moreover, I have quoted in writing that Bahai's believed Bab and Baha'ullah were not Messengers but a greater status.

Except you used a source from a Biased website which distorted the writing.

I think You should use the proper source. At least use Wikipedia.
It is always easy to use a biased website which distorts someones writings.

Anyways, I am only sharing the Baha'i view. you are more than welcome to have you own opinion.

- peace
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Except you used a source from a Biased website which distorted the writing.

I think You should use the proper source. At least use Wikipedia.
It is always easy to use a biased website which distorts someones writings.

Anyways, I am only sharing the Baha'i view. you are more than welcome to have you own opinion.

- peace

Thanks for trying you best to explain. I will leave you to know that the website had not distorted anything and present a point which is very valid. It is also unreasonable to expect that Bahai's themselves would not notice that the Bab never called himself a Messenger. They themselves see him a higher status then a Messenger. So there is no need to distort there. Distortion would not provide any real benefit to present one view over the other.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
No, the Bab Message is clear that He has a Message from God.
Baha'u'llah reminded people about previous Messengers, just as other Messengers like Muhammad reminded of previous Messengers.







That's not All.
He made the way prepared for Baha'u'llah, just as the John did for Jesus.
Have you ever thought why according to Prophecies, there should appear Mahdi then Christ?





The Bab came to fulfill prophecies.
According to Prophecies when the Promised One comes, he would present Himslef as Mahdi, Qaim, and the Lord. Offcourse that does not mean, He won't be a Messenger. But the title and the Term that is used was not to be Messenger.
Just Like jesus. According to Jewish Prophecies the Promised One would be Messiah, and Jesus presented Himself as the Messiah, Not a Messenger.

These can all be discussed. But who checks to see the fulfillment of prophecies on someone who never claimed to be a Messenger. Moreover the prophecies are not fulfilled and the case of John that Baptist is something you need more time to investigate yourself. If you think the case of John the Baptist and Bab matches along with the Prophets stories in the Holy Quran then you probably haven't spent enough time reading them.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
It is also unreasonable to expect that Bahai's themselves would not notice that the Bab never called himself a Messenger.

It seems to me you believe in literal reading of Holy Books.
I believe in understanding the reality of the Message.
There are many who concentrate on "letters of the words", rather than the spirit and reality of the Message, thus they miss the Message.

The Message is clear. The Bab did claim He was a Messenger. I have already shown that in this thread.

Like I said, why don't you post some of the verses of Quran or Bible as how the Messengers of the Past presented themselves, then I will show how the Bab had the same claims.

Let me ask you this: How do you define a Messenger?
The Muslims ofter define a Messenger as One who is sent from God, who has a Message from God, He has a Book from God, He reveales New laws.
All of these clearly stated in Bayan regarding the Bab.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
They themselves see him a higher status then a Messenger.

That is incorrect. The Baha'i Scripture is clear that All the Messengers of God are the same reality who appear in every Age.

"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayán! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT]ammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 101-102
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I will say once again, anyone can fabricate books.

Sorry took me sometime to get back on this topic.

This is what Quran says:

"And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta. And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him." Quran 69:44-47

The above verses basically means, that if Muhammad or anybody else, make-up a saying, and claim falsely that is what God says, God would not allow this to happen, before even such a thing occurr.


Now with regards to the Bab, He claimed this are what God had said.
For example, the Bab wrote on behalf of God:


"We have, of a truth, sent down this divinely-inspired Book unto Our Servant (the Bab)... Ask ye then Him Who is Our Remembrance of its interpretation, inasmuch as He, as divinely-ordained and through the grace of God, is invested with the knowledge of its verses..."

and many many verses, claiming this what God is saying.
for example:

"Ye may contend: ‘How doth He (the Bab) speak on our behalf?’ Have ye not perused the unseemly words ye uttered in the past, as reflected in the text of My Book, and still ye feel not ashamed?"
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 87-88


"Hence, a sincerely pious and believing man can not allow entry into his heart the thought that the verses of my Bayán [40] come from another one but God. [41] Perhaps, the pen would refuse its service to such a work..."

"There can thus be no doubt about this for a Muslim: the Qur'án was created by God, men and demons are incapable of producing even a single verse: hence, whatever is a verse, is the work of God. That [Hence] if you say that I am Myself the Author, you ascribe a lie to the Qur'án which has foreseen your objection; but, if He had not done so [foreseen your objection], that God is the master of the events of this world [is evident]: if He gave to the Prophets Whom He sent proofs of their mission, it is impossible that He did not unmask every charlatan who wished to pass himself off as sent by Him, risking thus the success of His work of salvation. How from then on could He permit a false prophet to produce verses which, by definition, are [of] divine manufacture? On the contrary, He would paralyze the hand that wished to write them, the tongue that wished to speak them, the brain that wanted to compose them before such a blasphemy could take place. Furthermore, since you believe in the divinity of the verses, because they are the work of God, because men and demons would be incapable of producing them, how can you say that if I produce them, they do not come from heaven? "

Selected from Seven Proofs, The Bab

The Seven Proofs



 

h05531n

Member

Characteristics and Qualities of the Imam of the time

The qualities and merits of His Eminence, Mahdi (a.s) are same as those of the divine messengers and legatees. The effulgence of Imamate and the awe of the prophets was perfectly apparent in the face of the Holy Imam. His description and details have come in the narrations as follows :i
one : Abu Saeed Khudri narrates from the Messenger of Allah (a.s) that he said, “Indeed, the Almighty Allah will raise from my progeny and Ahle Bayt a man, who would have appropriate gap between his front teeth and have a bright forehead so that he may fill the earth with justice, welfare and economic equality.”i
Numerous traditions of the same type have been recorded by the scholars and narrators of Ahle Sunnat from the Holy Prophet (a.s) describing the various characteristics of Imam Mahdi, the descendent and great grandson of the Prophet
two : His Eminence, Abu Ja’far, Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s) through his forefathers has narrated from the chief of Ahle Bayt, His Eminence, Amirul Momineen (a.s) that His Eminence proclaimed from the pulpit, “In the last age a man from my progeny would rise, having a fair complexion that has some redness (hue) and having a clear and wide belly and his thighs would be broad and his bones shall be long (big) and prominent and he would have two beauty spots one of whom shall be the color of the Prophet. He shall rise up.”i
ithree: In another tradition His Eminence, Ali (a.s) again mentions about Imam Mahdi (a.s) in the following words: “He shall have a wide forehead and big eyes and a clear and wide belly, broad thighs, his front teeth would be sparkling and there is a mole on his right thigh.”i
A fact derived from traditions and reports of the Holy Prophet (a.s) is that in his facial appearance he is most handsome and elegant. All physical and facial beauties would be humble and submissive before the elegance of Imam Mahdi (a.s).i
The prominent and acknowledged poet, Agha Sayyid Hasan has thus mentioned about His Eminence:i
“The elegance came up (arose) through his clear face
The morning breeze spread from his calming countenance.”[sup]i


Resemblance of Imam of the time with the Prophet

Among all the people, His Eminence is most resembling His great grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (a.s), by way of method, Jihad and revolution against oppression and transgression and transformation of the system of the oppressive rulers in society, from theft and destruction humiliation, affliction and problems. He would replace all this with a system that would provide every kind of comfort and security and be a cause of general welfare and happiness of the people. When the Qaim of the progeny of Muhammad would appear, he would work in the same way as his great grandfather had done. That is why he would destroy the false powers and tyrannical rulers whose power is based on falsehood and hypocrisy and he shall eradicate them completely. He would then establish justice and equity in every sense of the term
Numerous traditions of the Holy Prophet (a.s) and the Imams of guidance have reached us that mention that Imam Mahdi (a.s) resembles his great grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (a.s). Some of them are mentioned below:i

one : Abdullah Ibne Masud narrates from the Messenger of Allah that he said, “A man from my family would arise having my name, and his manners and habits would be like my manners and habits and he would make the earth abound with justice and equity.”
two : Huzaifah relates from the Messenger of Allah (a.s) that he said:i
i"Even if there remains one day in the life of the earth, God will bring forth a man whose name and character will be like mine, and whose patronymic will be Abu Abdillah. People would pay allegiance to him between the Rukn and Maqam[sup][1][/sup] of Ka’ba. Through him God will revive His religion and bring it back to its early glory. God will also endow him with many victories and there will remain on earth none other than the ones who will declare: There is no god, except Allah.”i
Sulaiman got up from his place and asked as to which of his children’s descendent he would be
The Prophet struck his hand on Husain (a.s) and said, “From his [sup] [descendants][/sup].”i
three : Ayesha has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (a.s) that he said:i
i"Mahdi is a person from my progeny. He will fight for my Sunnah like I have fought for revelation.”i
four : Jabir Ibne Abdullah Ansari has quoted the Messenger of Allah (a.s) that he said:i
i"The Mahdi is from my progeny, his name and patronymic is same as mine. Among all the people he would resemble my character. There would be an occultation for him during which people shall be perplexed. After that he would reappear like a bright star and make the earth abound with justice and equity after it had been completely fraught with injustice and oppression.”i

Such types of traditions have reached us in large numbers from the Holy Prophet (a.s) and the Holy Imams (a.s). They all prove beyond any doubt that Imam Mahdi (a.s) not only resembles the Holy Prophet (a.s) in appearance and built; he is also having the same type of character and habits, due to which he is more superior to the other prophets of God. Rather in his method of reformation, engagements and his war tactics for the annihilation of oppression and injustice and for the establishment of equity and justice on the earth he closely resembles his great grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (a.s).i

 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
....in his method of reformation, engagements and his war tactics for the annihilation of oppression and injustice and for the establishment of equity and justice on the earth he closely resembles his great grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (a.s).i

The following Hadith clearly rejects the Idea that Mahdi will use Sword, and War to bring Justice:

"the Mahdi will bring justice to the whole world, but not one single drop of blood will be shed. The Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence. War and conflict will come to an end. Yet the Mahdi will follow a very peaceful path as he does all this. This attribute of the Mahdi is set out as follows in the hadith:

In the same way that bees gather round the queen, so people will gather round the Mahdi. He will fill the world, once filled with oppression, with justice instead. Such will be his justice that the sleeping man will not be awakened and no blood will be shed. The world will return to the Age of Happiness.

(al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar, pp. 29 and 48)

WWW.AL-SHIA.ORG
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Promised one of Islam, the Mahdi, is a messianic figure, which was promised to come according to many Hadithes.

In Islam theology, What is the role of Mehdi?
Why should there be a need for the Mahdi?
How to recognize Him?

Mahdi or the guided-one from Allah (one true creator God) is another name of a prophet messenger.

[6:84] And that is Our argument which We gave to Abraham against his people. We exalt in degrees of rank whomso We please. Thy Lord is indeed Wise, All-Knowing.
[6:85] And We gave him Isaac and Jacob; each did We guide aright, and Noah did We guide aright aforetime, and of his progeny, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward those who do good.
[6:86] And We guided Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias; each one of them was of the virtuous.
[6:87] And We also guided Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each one did We exalt above the people.
[6:88] And We exalted some of their fathers and their children and their brethren, and We chose them and We guided them in the straight path.
[6:89] That is the guidance of Allah. He guides thereby those of His servants whom He pleases. And if they had worshipped aught beside Him, surely all they did would have been of no avail to them.
[6:90] It is these to whom We gave the Book and dominion and prophethood. But if these people are ungrateful for them, it matters not, for We have now entrusted them to a people who are not ungrateful for them.
[6:91] These it is whom Allah guided aright, so follow thou their guidance. Say: ‘I ask not of you any reward for it. This is naught but an admonition for all mankind.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=6&verse=90
 
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