Russia May Have Just Given Ukraine Terms for Ending War

[Copernicus]

Pulled off what topic ? Propaganda is the topic ..the one you brought up.. running around crying "Russia Russia Russia" .. followed by claiming how well aquainted you are with with Russian propaganda - but when asked if you believe that certain of this "propaganda" ( DnC hack and subsequent Wiki-Leak) harmed our electoral process .. you say "Im not going to get pulled off topic" .

This is a loopy doop circle of self deception friend ? ... as the "weaponization of social media" that you duscuss- and your gulping down the spiked Russia Kool-aid is the topic that you are desperately trying to avoid by refusing to clarify your position on the topic.

Only a Yes/No required mate .. Did you drink down the "Russia harmed our electoral process" kool-laid or not ? === Sucks when position is so crucified .. can not manage a yes/no answer on the topic you been discussing ?

You claim Russian Propaganda was successfully influencing public opinion - such that Red has become a willing ally of Russia.. and on this Basis it was claimed our electoral process was Harmed ... do you agree .. or disagree ?

It is no accident that the stopgap bill just passed to keep the US government from shutting down purposely excluded aid to Ukraine. Maybe you should think about that, Sargonski, when you posture yourself as an apologist for Putin. To answer your loaded question, I believe that Russia colluded with Donald Trump to exploit an existing flaw in the Constitution--the so-called state-centered electoral college process rather than a direct popular vote, which is the method favored by other democracies that elect presidents. That is why his campaign chair with deep ties to Russia, Paul Manafort, worked with known Russian spy, Konstantin Kilimnik, to pass on information about the campaign. We already had a history of electing presidents that had lost the popular vote, and that was the loophole that won Trump his election victory. They literally popped "shampanskoye" corks in Moscow when Trump won the electoral victory without winning the popular vote. MPs in the Duma crowed over the way they helped get Trump elected. If you weren't aware of any of this, then it was you who has drunk the "kool-laid" (sic).

All of that is past history, and a lot has changed in our politics since the 2016 election. One constant in all of that is that Russia is still meddling in our politics, and many Republicans are still flirting with Russian help. Hence the exclusion of financial aid for Ukraine in the latest congressional bill, even though there is broad bipartisan support for Ukraine. That exclusion was engineered by Kevin McCarthy as a way of winning some Republican support in his caucus.

So it is a distraction to turn this thread into a discussion of what happened in 2016, nor do I care about Trump's "Russia, Russia, Russia" chant, which you parrot here. The summary of your position in all of this seems to be namecalling ("moron!" "clown!") and mockery ("drink the kool-laid!" "Russia Russia") rather than any substantive argument. There is no way to respond to such trolling other than to get pulled off topic.

 

[Sargonski]

It is no accident that the stopgap bill just passed to keep the US government from shutting down purposely excluded aid to Ukraine. Maybe you should think about that, Sargonski, when you posture yourself as an apologist for Putin. To answer your loaded question, I believe that Russia colluded with Donald Trump to exploit an existing flaw in the Constitution--the so-called state-centered electoral college process rather than a direct popular vote, which is the method favored by other democracies that elect presidents. That is why his campaign chair with deep ties to Russia, Paul Manafort, worked with known Russian spy, Konstantin Kilimnik, to pass on information about the campaign. We already had a history of electing presidents that had lost the popular vote, and that was the loophole that won Trump his election victory. They literally popped "shampanskoye" corks in Moscow when Trump won the electoral victory without winning the popular vote. MPs in the Duma crowed over the way they helped get Trump elected. If you weren't aware of any of this, then it was you who has drunk the "kool-laid" (sic).

All of that is past history, and a lot has changed in our politics since the 2016 election. One constant in all of that is that Russia is still meddling in our politics, and many Republicans are still flirting with Russian help. Hence the exclusion of financial aid for Ukraine in the latest congressional bill, even though there is broad bipartisan support for Ukraine. That exclusion was engineered by Kevin McCarthy as a way of winning some Republican support in his caucus.

So it is a distraction to turn this thread into a discussion of what happened in 2016, nor do I care about Trump's "Russia, Russia, Russia" chant, which you parrot here. The summary of your position in all of this seems to be namecalling ("moron!" "clown!") and mockery ("drink the kool-laid!" "Russia Russia") rather than any substantive argument. There is no way to respond to such trolling other than to get pulled off topic.

Why do you call me a Putin apologist for having an anti war position - wanting what is right for america. Calling anyone who disagrees with them for any reason a Putin Apologist ... is exactly what the Progressive Woke Joke does.. Tulsi Gabbard a Russian asset for being anti war .. An Assad lover for being against Arming Al Qaeda .... the 911 perpetrators with sophisticated US technology.

This is pure Orwellian doublespeak fallacy .. just cancel anything we disagree with in totalitarian bliss .. haters of this nation ... the founding principle and rule of law.

So it is a distraction to turn this thread into a discussion of what happened in 2016, nor do I care about Trump's "Russia, Russia, Russia" chant, which you parrot here.

Holy Carp .. You did the "Russia Russia" trop in this very Post .. this delusional oblivion is scary .. and clearly you don't know what this propaganda is .. that you are now reciting back to the world .. Obviously you did not know the Kool-aid was spiked .. and thank you for demonstrating this fact ..

This Faux/disingenuous paranoia ... accusing anyone and anything that disagrees with your positon of being from "Russia Russia Russia" crying out "Russian Propaganda - Russia Propaganda" "Putin Apologist - Putin Apologist" is EXACTLY what you did in this post

BUT .. BUT BUT ---- To your Credit .. you finally attempted to answer the question .. was a horrible and terribly poor attempt .. but, kudo's for trying .... although we don't give out any trophies for participation .. so sorry for that .. you have to actually win the contest ..

To answer your loaded question, I believe that Russia colluded with Donald Trump to exploit an existing flaw in the Constitution--the so-called state-centered electoral college process rather than a direct popular vote, which is the method favored by other democracies that elect presidents

It is ridiculous nonsense that Russia would even bother colluding over such a thing .. makes no sense that I can figure .. how could Russia possibly help - be of any assistence .. but regardless .. that was not the question ?.. I readily Grant that there may have been some collusion with Russia ..

The question is Did the release of the DNC hack information by Wiki harm our electoral process ?
How is it that you don't know that this is the question .. as It has been asked to you over 5 times now.. ? .

 

[Copernicus]

Why do you call me a Putin apologist for having an anti war position - wanting what is right for america. Calling anyone who disagrees with them for any reason a Putin Apologist ... is exactly what the Progressive Woke Joke does.. Tulsi Gabbard a Russian asset for being anti war .. An Assad lover for being against Arming Al Qaeda .... the 911 perpetrators with sophisticated US technology...

Annnnd, he's off on another Gish gallop! OK, you don't want to be called a Putin apologist, but your posts just coincidentally echo all of his talking points and come off sounding like an arm of the late Prigozhin's Glavset'. Putin also opposes the war in the same way you do--by the West walking away and leaving Ukraine to capitulate. You just don't know where all those memes are coming from, do you? There is a war playing out on social media just as hot as the one happening for real. You don't need to read RT to get the message. The same message is spread all over the internet.

 

[Sargonski]

Annnnd, he's off on another Gish gallop! OK, you don't want to be called a Putin apologist, but your posts just coincidentally echo all of his talking points and come off sounding like an arm of the late Prigozhin's Glavset'. Putin also opposes the war in the same way you do--by the West walking away and leaving Ukraine to capitulate. You just don't know where all those memes are coming from, do you? There is a war playing out on social media just as hot as the one happening for real. You don't need to read RT to get the message. The same message is spread all over the internet.

"Gish Gallop" -- ? This is a strange response friend .. What is a "Gish Gallop" other than another deflection from reality .. while you gallop around crying "Russia Russia" .. trying to demonize anyone who disagree's with your propaganda narrative du jour as Putin apologists .. "Russian Agents" as this is what the adherents are trained to do .. reciting the Cancel Culture Narrative .. and then when called on this sheepish behavior .. cry out Gish Gallop.

"There is a war going on on Social Media" -- Absolutely Mr. Gish. 100% correct .. the problem is that you don't have the faintest idea about the progress of the Social Media war.. completely lost in fact .. hopelessly unable to answer the most simple of questions .. to clarify your position ..

Did the wiki leak of the DNC Hack harm our electoral system or not .. for the 10th time at least. Is this another Prog Blue Cancel Technique .. if the question is uncomfortable .. just ignore and pretend it doesn't exist..

Did you buy the Lie Friend ? its not such a big deal .. the propagandists are getting very good .. using social media to great advangate .. censorship and the Sin of Omission rules the day .. specially in the fog of war .. which is to be expected .. except not by Mr. Gish Gallop apparently -- never heard of the Fog of War ? or are we getting into the pretend round .. feining disingenuous oblivion .. Yes no Maybe ?

Did this social media war harm our electoral process .. them FB ads heres one "Russian Propaganda"
Did Wiki releasing DNC hack harm our electoral process or not. ?

 

[Copernicus]

Did the wiki leak of the DNC Hack harm our electoral system or not .. for the 10th time at least.

Asked and answered. I'm content to let the rest of your post stand, since you say nothing of substance and just carry with language intended to provoke rather than discuss.

 

[Sargonski]

Asked and answered. I'm content to let the rest of your post stand, since you say nothing of substance and just carry with language intended to provoke rather than discuss.

You did not aswere the question I asked .. you answered a different question .. desperate to deflect from the fact that you have been spouting woke propaganda without realizing it ... running around crying Russia Russia Russia like a scared little kid at people who do not agree with your neocon position.

Calling Tulsi Gabbard a Putin Apologist for having an anti war position .. and similar woke trope .. is fallacious woke nonsense. You learned this trope from the woke joke and now regularly repeat it .. and then deflect from substantiating your woke position .. refusing to answer the simplest of questions pretending you gave an answer .. a lie to yourself and others.

Did the wiki release of the DNC hack harm our electoral process "YES/NO" ?

 

[Copernicus]

Did the wiki release of the DNC hack harm our electoral process "YES/NO" ?

My answer, as before, is the same: it was useful in the exploitation of a weakness in our process for electing presidents: the electoral college. The Russians were behind the hack, and the release was timed to influence the election. Exploitation could be considered "harm", although it didn't change the fact that the electoral college itself is a flaw in the election process.

To reemphasize a point you have been ignoring, the House stopgap budget bill excluded aid to Ukraine, which I maintain is no accident. Many Republicans are still carrying water for a country openly hostile to the US--Russia. That can be regarded as an extension of the pro-Kremlin policies that the MAGA wing of the Republican Party has been pursuing. In response, the E.U. is openly expressing solidarity with Ukraine, probably much to the displeasure of EU spokesperson, Estro Felino.

E.U. makes historic show of support for Ukraine after U.S. budget deal snub​

 

[Sargonski]

My answer, as before, is the same: it was useful in the exploitation of a weakness in our process for electing presidents: the electoral college. The Russians were behind the hack, and the release was timed to influence the election. Exploitation could be considered "harm", although it didn't change the fact that the electoral college itself is a flaw in the election process.

To reemphasize a point you have been ignoring, the House stopgap budget bill excluded aid to Ukraine, which I maintain is no accident. Many Republicans are still carrying water for a country openly hostile to the US--Russia. That can be regarded as an extension of the pro-Kremlin policies that the MAGA wing of the Republican Party has been pursuing. In response, the E.U. is openly expressing solidarity with Ukraine, probably much to the displeasure of EU spokesperson, Estro Felino.

E.U. makes historic show of support for Ukraine after U.S. budget deal snub​

"Ignoring a point" ? This is the first time I heard you mention the budget deal -- and we can discuss later but has zero to do with the question that you finally managed to answer ... half correctly .. not that your answer was correct .. but that you actually managed to answer the question.

Some kind of poison lizard was preventing answer -- but, you managed to finally answer the question - clarify your position... a step in the right direction kudo's for that much deserved and granted.

So -- you agree with the Prog Blue Propaganda trope that the release of the DNC hack info harmed our electoral process -- but you did not explain how/why .. which is why you only get half marks .. Yes you answered the question but gave no rational to justify your answer.. but .. no worries.. as we can examine "The Why" noting for future reference that you didn't really think about it at the time .. and have always just assumed was true .. this dastardly deed to Harm our Electoral Process by Trump in collusion with the evil Dr Vlad aka "Russia Russia" .. and lest we forget .. that propaganda must contain a lie/falsehood/misrepresentation.

While I agree completely that the release of the information harmed a candidate - which is likely where your thinking on the issue ended .. harm to your beloved candidate .. especially if it be Prog True Blue .. harms our electoral process .. if it was info on negative to a Red candidate is a different story .. ye old flipity flopity .. agree with essential liberty -- but only for things one agrees with .. apology for the digression.

The problem is that this is false logic - and you were thus fooled by the fallacy -- just because the info harmed a candidate .. does not mean the electoral process was harmed. and so you see .. this is why you bought into the lie .. the "Propaganda" .. OHHHH OHHHH Bad Bad Trump .. in collusion with the Russians Harmed our democracy - and bye the bye .. you and a whole lot of others did buy the lie .. and on first fleeting glance .. it kind of looks like it might cause at least some harm .. but this is the lie .. the misrepresentation .. one of many in this goofy trope the Blue team was fielding

So the info in the Wiki-leak that was so damning to Hilly was what ? Was how Hilly and the DNC were colluding and doing nasty things to Bernie dirty deeds .. done dirt cheap messing with our electoral process -- this coupled with here receipt of the debate questions before hand .. definitely harmed her .. I would go as far as to say was the reason she was sunk - the Bernie voters were pissed off .. and rightly so .. underhanded dirty pool .. who she barely beat .. Meddling with and Harming our electoral process .. "Full Stop"

but .. at the end of the day .. how does the Voter receiving info about a candidates dirty deeds prior to the election .. as opposed to after .. "HARM" our electoral process ?? Well in fact it doesn't .. quite to the contrary .. If a President was aware of information about a candidates dirty deeds .. it is almost an obligation to get that information out .. "Helping" and Benefiting our electoral process .. as opposed to harm.

How does the voter kowing about a candidates dirty deeds prior to the election HARM our electoral process ? it doesn't .. it helps it ... but don't feel bad .. that was some good ganda you fell for. Propaganda isn't much good if the hearer knows it is a lie. Is when the Bloke don't spot the lie .. that be good ganda

 

[Copernicus]

...

How does the voter kowing about a candidates dirty deeds prior to the election HARM our electoral process ? it doesn't .. it helps it ... but don't feel bad .. that was some good ganda you fell for. Propaganda isn't much good if the hearer knows it is a lie. Is when the Bloke don't spot the lie .. that be good ganda

Sargonski, I'm not going to chase you down that rabbit hole in pursuit of your straw man. I have never said that our electoral system was harmed by Russia's leak of emails that they purloined, and its only relevance here is the issue of Russia's interference in our current politics as it affects Russia's ongoing invasion of its neighbor. The weakness in our electoral system is well known history, and Russia's interference is not the only way it has served us poorly in the past. 2016 is over, and you are clearly just trying to provoke me into a ad nauseam slapfest of smack talk that I have no interest in. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[Sargonski]

Sargonski, I'm not going to chase you down that rabbit hole in pursuit of your straw man. I have never said that our electoral system was harmed by Russia's leak of emails that they purloined, and its only relevance here is the issue of Russia's interference in our current politics as it affects Russia's ongoing invasion of its neighbor. The weakness in our electoral system is well known history, and Russia's interference is not the only way it has served us poorly in the past. 2016 is over, and you are clearly just trying to provoke me into a ad nauseam slapfest of smack talk that I have no interest in. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Yes you did .. but matters not to me what your position is .. just so long as you take one.. So you now claim you did not buy into the Blue Lies and "Russia Russia" propaganda as the only lie was coming from the Blue Clown car ..

but .. why are you crying out Rabbit Hole ... Strawman ? it was you who was repeating the Blue propaganda trope - down the "russia Russia" Ad Hom Fallacy Rabbit hole .. calling me a Putin Apologist.. now in some dissillusioned desperate denial projecting your running down fallacious rabbit hole .. complete with the building of strawmen on to me...

and yes you did claim the hack harmed our electoral process as you were responding to a yes no question :did it harm Yes/No .. you answered "It could be considered Harm"

The Russians were behind the hack, and the release was timed to influence the election. Exploitation could be considered "harm", although it didn't change the fact that the electoral college itself is a flaw in the election process.

do you have a memory problem .. or just unable to figure out your own words .. or just one of those folks who tells so many stories ... he forgets from one post to the next and then claiming you are the one provoked digging through this painful silliness .. first it takes you 10 posts to answere the question .. then finally you answer .. then turn around and deny your answer the next post ..

but anyhow .. So why you going around repeating Prog Blue Russia Russia Propaganda fallacy -- calling folks Russian Apologists for disagreement with your position .. and you now blather more of this "Russia Russia" trope .. "interference in our current politics" ?? What the frick and frack are you talking about interferring how ? Have you not noticed we are fighting a war with Russia .. Russia has no ability to influence anything .. this is mind bending ridiculousness .. loopy do . hoopy who .. Congress are not Russian spys Friend .. as much as the Woke Joke wants to tell you that they are .. you been ingesting the spiked Kool-aid once again .. even after I told you it was spiked .. so what is your excuse this time ?

 

[Copernicus]

and yes you did claim the hack harmed our electoral process as you were responding to a yes no question :did it harm Yes/No .. you answered "It could be considered Harm"

That is not the same as saying that I think the hack harmed the electoral process. What I think, as I've made clear repeatedly, is that the hack only exploited an existing flaw. The harm was introduced when the original framers of the Constitution formulated a compromise to ensure power sharing between slave states, with fewer voters, and free states, with more voters. Madison himself pointed out that slavery was the big issue when it came to getting slave states to sign on to a federalist system, so electing president with a system where the number of slaves could be figured into the voting power of a state convinced the powerful Virginia delegation and other representatives from slave states to go forward with adopting the Constitution. In modern times, parity between slave states and free states is no longer an issue, as it was for decades after the ratification of the original document. However, we still live with a legacy that allows us to elect presidents that do not win the popular vote. That's fine with Republicans and Russians, both groups having taken advantage of the flawed electoral process.

 

[Estro Felino]

My answer, as before, is the same: it was useful in the exploitation of a weakness in our process for electing presidents: the electoral college. The Russians were behind the hack, and the release was timed to influence the election. Exploitation could be considered "harm", although it didn't change the fact that the electoral college itself is a flaw in the election process.

To reemphasize a point you have been ignoring, the House stopgap budget bill excluded aid to Ukraine, which I maintain is no accident. Many Republicans are still carrying water for a country openly hostile to the US--Russia. That can be regarded as an extension of the pro-Kremlin policies that the MAGA wing of the Republican Party has been pursuing. In response, the E.U. is openly expressing solidarity with Ukraine, probably much to the displeasure of EU spokesperson, Estro Felino.

E.U. makes historic show of support for Ukraine after U.S. budget deal snub​

In Slovakia, Fico, a openly Russophile won the elections.

Maybe you haven't understood yet that when the EU leaders say "we express our solidarity towards Ukraine" they mean that soon, very soon, Ukraine will start the juridical process to join the EU, so they will be helped financially for implementing all the reforms.

Which implies they will have to evolve from the medieval, warlike stage they are in. And embrace customary international law, treaties international law.

And by the way...I am the only one defending the EU in this forum, so yes I am the EU spokesperson, dear sir.
The EU's stance is not to make the conflict escalate.
They will have to abandon their intransigent warlike approach.

 

[Ponder This]

Will that be acceptable?

"A top Kremlin official on Saturday suggested Russia could agree to an end to the war in Ukraine if a key condition is met.

During a press conference at the United Nations General Assembly, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov indicated Russia would recognize Ukraine's borders prior to Moscow's invasion if Kyiv pledges to not join a military alliance.

Since Russian President Vladimir Putin began the war on February 24, 2022, he and Kremlin officials have cited various justifications for the conflict. But one of the most frequently stated reasons is Putin's opposition to the expansion of NATO on his country's borders, and he is said to be especially against Ukraine becoming a member of the military bloc."

MSN

www.msn.com

It seems to me that wanting Ukraine to not join a military alliance is an obvious attempt by Russia to insure that Russia can attack Ukraine again in the future. From an outside point of view, it is detestable to negotiate peace terms that insure future conflict will occur. I would prefer terms that insure a lasting peace.

 

[Estro Felino]

It seems to me that wanting Ukraine to not join a military alliance is an obvious attempt by Russia to insure that Russia can attack Ukraine again in the future. From an outside point of view, it is detestable to negotiate peace terms that insure future conflict will occur. I would prefer terms that insure a lasting peace.

No...it's just because they fear that NATO will turn Ukraine into a military base for an Operation meant to attack, conquer and dismember Russia.
Russians are probably a bit paranoiac about this.
But they were invaded by Napoleon in the 19th century and by Nazi Germany in 1940s...so they are afraid of Western Europe.

Now we Western Europe love Russians and Russia...but it seems to me that certain people hate Russia a priori.

Right?

 

[Copernicus]

In Slovakia, Fico, a openly Russophile won the elections.

Maybe you haven't understood yet that when the EU leaders say "we express our solidarity towards Ukraine" they mean that soon, very soon, Ukraine will start the juridical process to join the EU, so they will be helped financially for implementing all the reforms.

Which implies they will have to evolve from the medieval, warlike stage they are in. And embrace customary international law, treaties international law.

Actually, it means exactly what they said, which was to support Ukraine's war effort:

“This joint meeting of European Union foreign ministers with Ukraine in Kyiv should be understood as a clear commitment of the European Union to Ukraine and its continuous support in all dimensions — support for the military, support for a just peace, accountability and working for the membership path,” he told reporters after the meeting...​

​

“By coming to Kyiv, the European Union foreign ministers sent a strong message of solidarity and support to Ukraine in the face of this unjust and illegitimate war,” Borrell said.​

​

“It’s also sending a strong signal to Russia — we are not intimidated by your missiles or drones,” he added. “Our resolve to support the fight for freedom and independence of Ukraine is firm and will continue.”​

And by the way...I am the only one defending the EU in this forum, so yes I am the EU spokesperson, dear sir.

And your pronouncements are worth every euro cent they pay you in your self-appointed post, even if you get EU policy wrong. The Visegrad Group is still trying to figure out why everyone in this forum now thinks they are a Christian Nationalist alliance, so maybe you should just stick to misrepresenting the EU.

The EU's stance is not to make the conflict escalate.
They will have to abandon their intransigent warlike approach.

Did you intend to imply that the EU is taking an "intransigent warlike approach"? Nobody wants the conflict to escalate or the war to continue. The difference between you and most others here is that you want it to end on Russia's terms. Just look at your survey in your other thread. 60% want the war to end with Russia's defeat. You want it to end with Ukraine becoming part of Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Actually, it means exactly what they said, which was to support Ukraine's war effort:

“This joint meeting of European Union foreign ministers with Ukraine in Kyiv should be understood as a clear commitment of the European Union to Ukraine and its continuous support in all dimensions — support for the military, support for a just peace, accountability and working for the membership path,” he told reporters after the meeting...​

​

“By coming to Kyiv, the European Union foreign ministers sent a strong message of solidarity and support to Ukraine in the face of this unjust and illegitimate war,” Borrell said.​

​

“It’s also sending a strong signal to Russia — we are not intimidated by your missiles or drones,” he added. “Our resolve to support the fight for freedom and independence of Ukraine is firm and will continue.”​

That passage basically confirms what I have just said.
Support for defense, for the peace process, and for the EU joining process.

If Americans naively believe that Europeans will use Ukrainian soldiers as cannon fodder in their personal war against the tsar, they are mistaken.
I suggest them to read French media, German media and Italian media as well.
Not to live in an English-speaking echo chamber, if they desire to learn about Europe.

And your pronouncements are worth every euro cent they pay you in your self-appointed post, even if you get EU policy wrong.

But all my predictions turned out to be true.
Russians have won.
The four regions have become part of the Russian Federation.
I kindly advise you to read what happens in Moscow, every now and then.

The Visegrad Group is still trying to figure out why everyone in this forum now thinks they are a Christian Nationalist alliance, so maybe you should just stick to misrepresenting the EU.

They are. Read their constitutions, especially the Hungarian one.

Did you intend to imply that the EU is taking an "intransigent warlike approach"?

The Ukrainians are taking that approach.

Nobody wants the conflict to escalate or the war to continue.

Yes, the overseas élites do want this conflict to escalate into a third world war.

The difference between you and most others here is that you want it to end on Russia's terms.

Russia has already won.

Just look at your survey in your other thread. 60% want the war to end with Russia's defeat. You want it to end with Ukraine becoming part of Russia.

How many EU Europeans are there in this forum?
Percentage?

I will never say I know America better than Americans.
But Americans claim they know Europe or the EU better than Europeans.

 

[Copernicus]

Russia has already won.

You should write a letter to the Kremlin to inform them so that they will stop bombarding civilian targets all over Ukraine and sending poorly trained and equipped mobiks into the trenches. Maybe they should move the Black Sea fleet back into Sevastopol while they are at it. They will be greatly relieved to hear the news.

How many EU Europeans are there in this forum?
Percentage?

I don't know. There are quite a few Europeans who post here besides you, and very few seem to take your pro-Kremlin attitude. I have a lot of friends across Europe, and the majority of those are pro-Ukraine. So I don't find anything you say here credible.

I will never say I know America better than Americans.
But Americans claim they know Europe or the EU better than Europeans.

I can confidently say that I speak and/or read more EU and other European languages than you do, including Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish. Do you even know Latin? And I've been visiting Europe frequently since the 1960s--probably longer than you've been alive. I even visited the Soviet Union back in the 60s. How many EU countries have you actually visited? So I may be more familiar with Europe, especially Eastern Europe, than most Americans. I think you really need to study more European history before you spout off on it.

 

[Estro Felino]

I can confidently say that I speak and/or read more EU languages than you do, including Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish. Do you even know Latin? And I've been visiting Europe since the 1960s--probably longer than you've been alive. I even visited the Soviet Union back in the 60s. So I may be more familiar with Europe than most Americans. I think you really need to study more European history before you spout off on it.

Perfect. I can understand Russian, but not Ukrainian.
So tell me what Poroshenko means by that speech made in 2014 about Donbas children.

But you will not answer this question, probably. You will probably elude this question. Because it will make you admit that Ukrainians were the perpetrators, back then.

 

[Copernicus]

Perfect. I can understand Russian, but not Ukrainian.
So tell me what Poroshenko means by that speech made in 2014 about Donbas children.

But you will not answer this question, probably. You will probably elude this question. Because it will make you admit that Ukrainians were the perpetrators, back then.

Estro, what does this short clip of a political speech taken out of context have to do with anything? Poroshenko was obviously upset that Putin had launched an unprovoked, illegal invasion of Ukraine in revenge for their revolt against Putin ally, Yanukovych. I think that Ukrainians had a right to be upset that their country was being invaded by a neighbor that had pledged to respect its sovereignty, so I don't see this little clip as signifying that Ukraine provoked Russia into invading its territory. That's just plain nutty.

 

[Estro Felino]

Estro, what does this short clip of a political speech taken out of context have to do with anything? Poroshenko was obviously upset that Putin had launched an unprovoked, illegal invasion of Ukraine in revenge for their revolt against Putin ally, Yanukovych. I think that Ukrainians had a right to be upset that their country was being invaded by a neighbor that had pledged to respect its sovereignty, so I don't see this little clip as signifying that Ukraine provoked Russia into invading its territory. That's just plain nutty.

In 2014 there was no Russian invasion.
There were Donbas separatists who wanted to become independent and asked for Moscow's military intervention.
Moscow refused telling them that diplomacy is the way: the two Minsk agreements were signed.

Please don't elude this question: did Ukraine respect the Minsk agreements they signed?