amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
Who thought up that concept, it's pretty messed up.. how would they even know that would work
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Russia: "UK, Stop support to Ukraine or face nuclear Tsunami"
- Thread starter stvdv
- Start date
We will bomb Russia into the stone ages if they nuke Britain, and they'd better know it now rather than start something. I don't care if our country gets nuked, too. This is stupid, and we can all die if they're going to push the button. The rest of the world can go on without us. I'm fine with it. Go ahead, Russia and do it. Goodbye forever.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
The problem is how Putin created a dictatorship and dragged Russia back into a cold war for no good reason, except him wanting to stay in power and want to be seen as a big man.
Over the last many years the west have been trading and working together with the Russians, which is an indication of at least some improved relationship. At no point have any western countries remotely talked about invading Russia. If people even have the slightest idea of how EU and the west work, they would know that this would never happen.
Germany didn't have a huge army and was very pacifistic before all this and no other EU country would consider it a good idea to attack Russia. The US have hardly any nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe anyway, the majority of theirs are in the US and can hit Russia anyway if they wanted.
It is nothing but a bad excuse that Russia need a border around them. It makes no difference today. If the west wanted to invade Russia, they would be able to spot it several years ahead due to the insane amount of troops and material that would need to be transported from the US and UK to central and eastern Europe.
Putin is nothing but a maniac that have brought all this on the Russians himself and apparently have never been particularly interested in working together with the west.
Again Putin or Russia, first of all made a deal with Ukraine about the nuclear weapons they had, but as we can see their word and promises are worthless. Besides that, Russia have no right to tell other countries what they should and shouldn't do, so no we shouldn't respect those kind of wishes from Putin.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I don't know what they will do and won't, but obviously I hope they don't do it.
But again, Putin brought this on the Russians and have hurt them more than they can even imagine I think, because it will take a very very long time, before any western countries or even other countries dares to trust Russia, also I would imagine that a lot of companies do not see it as being a very interesting place to invest money when it is as unstable as it is, because having a loose cannon as the leader, and it obviously being insanely expensive to build up businesses, I think a lot will simply move to other countries. That pretty much all of Europe will now actively move away from Russian gas, is going to hurt them as well.
Even if Russia manage to win over Ukraine and get some sort of deal, everyone will remember what they did and that is not magically going to go away, it will take a lot of years and the Russians are going to feel it big time.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It's state TV. It's a journalist. Propaganda.
The goal here, is not to actually attack. Journalist don't get to give orders to the military.
The actual goal here, is to get people (citizens) in the west to talk about it. To get western media to pick up the story and present it as being "serious". The goal is to turn public opinion of the west against its leaders to make them stop helping ukraine. No more, no less.
Because when the help continues, Russia will lose to Ukraine. Or at least weaken itself to such a point that even if they win, they'll lose anyway.
Nobody in the leadership of Russia who actually has the power to order such attacks even thinks about it.
They are EMPTY THREATS meant ONLY to cause a stir in western public opinion so that citizens pressure their governments to let Putin do whatever he wants to. That's it. Nothing more or less.
Western media, frankly, should know better then to pick up these propaganda stories. It is exactly what Russia wants: for western media to spread this propaganda. Don't fall for it.
Ignore it and continue helping ukkraine.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It's not Putin's threat.
It's a journalist's.
Putin's guy Lavrov meanwhile is openly declaring that Russia is not at war with Nato.
Nuclear attack procedure in Russia remains unchanged.
It's only used when:
1. they are struck first with nukes
and
2. Russia itself is attacked in an existential threat kind of way
Neither is going to happen.
Over a month ago, Putin "declared" nuclear forces to go into high alert. All talk and no bite. On the ground, not a single move has been noted. Not a single missile moved. It's just propaganda.
He's a barbarian and psychopath. But he is not suicidal.
He knows very well that throwing a nuke is a red line that, when crossed, means certain death for him and the rest of his cohorts within 30 minutes.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
If that is what you think, then you should know better then to believe he might actually throw a nuke on a NATO country that isn't even directly involved in the conflict.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Again, all this russian state tv propaganda has only ONE goal:
To get that propaganda to be picked up by western media so that wester citizens see it and **** their pants. That would in turn make them pressure their governments to stop helping ukraine, which if succesfull would cause division in Nato and EU.
THAT is the goal here. Russian military and leadership is scared to death about the solidarity the west is currently displaying. They didn't expect this. They expected to roll over ukraine in 3 days. They expected to take out Zelensky within 12 hours of the start of the invasion. It all exploded in their face.
Instead, they are being humiliated on a daily basis. The "great and mighty" russian military turns out to be an amateuristic bunch with low moral and soviet era equipment with tanks littered with weak spots and idiot generals that keep dying. Close to 20% of the forces that took part in the invasion have been eliminated. They are getting their behinds handed to them.
Putin realizes he has made the biggest strategic blunder in his life. What you see here with all that state tv propaganda is nothing more or less then damage control.
Sadly, on some people it seems to be working.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
...by his own people.
The solution to these ex-KGB d!cks with soviet nostalgia is going to have to come from within russia.
If any other third party sends in special ops teams to take him out, he will instead become a martyr. A banner around which other russians will gather. And it won't have solved anything.
The solution needs to come from guys like Navalny.
Meanwhile, we can only completely isolate them. Move away from any and anything russian.
No more oil, gas, coal, vodka, whatever.
Just ignore them 110% and "ride it out" until they solve their own sh!t.
I see....this is a usage of the word "smart" that
I hadn't yet encountered. Now I understand.
In Putin's Russia these days, news media are
tightly controlled. So talking heads would be
good indicators of his mindset. The real question
is whether this is....
- A real intention.
- A bluff.
- Blowing off steam.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I think your take is pretty optimistic, and I hadn't really thought of it exactly like that before. However, although I give you points, I think caution has a place here. People do do horrible things in this world. Just yesterday I clicked on the bar at the bottom of my screen to check the weather, and up pops a story about a mother in an american suburb somewhere, who was arrested for committing what seems like a random horror. The look on her stoney face, while they apprehended her, probably caused me unsettling dreams as I slept
Then you have to think, that putin is a human too. And some humans do do bad things. Why couldn't he be just like one of the people in the news list I looked at the other day? Only with more power.
In other news that might have a chance of being optimistic, I read recent articles that lukashenko might be sort of distancing himself a bit from putin. There might be a leverage point in that
There's also an argument in that, that the recklessness indicates possibly more cause for concern. You just described someone who did something reckless, and that person has a greater capacity for being reckless that is yet unused. That person also might start to perceive himself as being cornered (hard to imagine since he owns so much land), and that also might make for an uneasy stress point
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It's none of the above.
It's propaganda meant to turn public opinion in the west against western leadership to pressure them to stop sending weapons and other type of help to ukraine.
And if they succeed in doing that in 1 country that is significant enough, it would cause a crack in the united front of the west which could be the first domino in a chain of events which would cause division to a point that Russia can carry out its plans unhindered.
The Russians didn't count on this united front of the west coupled with massive aid to ukrainians.
They are trapped between a rock and a hard place.
This is precisely the reason why they have no way out where the don't lose.
In a sense, we have them right where we want them: on a path of self-destruction and the longer it goes on, the weaker they become. And all that without any boots on the ground. Without a single shot fired by non-ukrainian hands.
At this point, the only thing left to do for them is achieve "some" result in Ukraine which they can then sell to their people as a "victory", go back home and then lie about why the economy is so bad. While ending up even weaker then right after the soviet union collapsed.
That's the best possible end scenario for them. And they know it. Any other scenario will just make it worse for them.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Don't get me wrong. I'm only "optimistic" in the sense that they are not going to start to use WMDs on Nato territory. Or any other weaponry, for that matter. ie: the propaganda we see on russian tv.
For just about everything else about this situation, I am extremely pessimistic.
The fall out of this war has not even begun to hit us. And by "us", I mean the world.
Famines will hit the world. Plenty of business (and people) are going to go bankrupt. The economic crisis of 2008 is going to look like disney land compared to what's coming. None of this is going to end well.
Note that every example you gave about recklessness, including the way Russia went into this invasion, was done with self-preservation assumed. Thinking they would get away with it.
Current Russian leadership is notorious for not caring about any lives except their own. And their money and power, off course. All of which would be lost with certainty if they would actually do the things that Russian propaganda is threatening with.
This is why I am confident that it's all bark and no bite. So other motives are at play here.
And to me, those motives are clear: break western unity. Disrupt the help to ukraine.
Western leadership is actually dependend on public approval ratings. Putin knows this. They consider that our weakness. See, unlike in Russia, we actually have fair elections
Putin doesn't care what Russians think. The russian elites decide who is president and who gets a seat in the kremlin - not the people. And if somebody they don't like is getting to much support / power / money, they are simply eliminated.
So, that is what they bank on: influence public opinion in the west, so that the leadership gets pressured and / or replaced by people who act like he wants them to act.
This has been the modus operandi for russia for quite some time now. Back in the soviet days, they tried to get the west to their bidding through military threats. Today, they do it by influencing public opinion. It's how, and why, they got Brexit done. It's how, and why, they got Trump elected. It might sound like a conspiracy, but it really isn't. Social media, and the way it works with the algorithms, is like a dream come true for psychological warfare. It's not even dificult.
I can guarantee you that if Putin and his cohorts knew that this would be the result of his adventure in ukraine, he would have never invaded. Not a chance.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I did read somewhere that ukraine ranked high in terms of wheat production, and russia for fertilizer. I don't know, maybe more people here in the rust belt should switch to wheat. Probably could switch away from cattle a bit as well, I heard somewhere that those are really some of the most inefficient live stock.
How does this compare, logistically and statistically, with their own meddling in Afghanistan, I wonder
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Bombing or threatening to bomb one’s enemies into the stone age is unlikely to contribute much to the cause of world peace.
That said, warfare on the scale of massed armies, appears to have been a Bronze Age development which is still with us, so maybe a return to simpler, more innocent times could benefit all humanity.
The threat of mutual destruction is an ancient one, more ancient than the bronze age or the agricultural age. We get angry, and we stop caring even about who dies, ourselves or anybody. We drag other people into our conflicts.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
You first!Let’s not do that then