Russian chest thumping - Chinese incursions

[ImmortalFlame]

Would you have taken a neutral position in that war?
I prefer the lesser of 2 (or more) evils.

Clearly we don't understand. See, when my neighbour was arrested for holding women captive in his basement, what the jury failed to take into account at the trial is the fact that both me and my neighbour were both guilty of failing to sort our recycling properly. If there were any justice in the world, we would both have been in the dock, as we are clearly therefore both equally bad.

Moral philosophy 101.

 

[Estro Felino]

They funded and armed separatist groups in the Donbas. I said that.

But why did the Poroshenko government and the Azov Battalion attacked civilians too?
They didn't exckusively attack the separatists, who were armed.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But why did the Poroshenko government and the Azov Battalion attacked civilians too?

Sources, please.

They didn't exckusively attack the separatists, who were armed.

Neither did the separatists exclusively attack military targets. The point is that the separatists initiated the conflict, spurred by Russia, following a long history of Russia meddling in Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sources, please.
Neither did the separatists exclusively attack military targets. The point is that the separatists initiated the conflict, spurred by Russia, following a long history of Russia meddling in Ukraine.

I have so many pieces of evidence collected by Italian war reporters, Giulietto Chiesa and so on.
I invite Poroshenko, Nuland and similar unspeakable characters to an International Criminal Court.
With all that evidence, any attorney will destroy these people in court, really
That's why they will never show up...

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have so many pieces of evidence collected by Italian war reporters, Giulietto Chiesa and so on.
I invite Poroshenko, Nuland and similar unspeakable characters to an International Criminal Court.
With all that evidence, any attorney will destroy these people in court, really
That's why they will never show up...

I have a magical dragon in my garage.

See, I can make magical, fanciful claims too.

 

[Estro Felino]

I have a magical dragon in my garage.

See, I can make magical, fanciful claims too.

Because neither my claims nor yours can be demonstrated on a forum.
They need to be validated by a judicial authority.
So there's no difference between your claims about Ukraine and mine .

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because neither my claims nor yours can be demonstrated on a forum.

I asked you to present sources. You can do that very easily. I have done it multiple times; for example, I did it to prove how you repeatedly lied.

They need to be validated by a judicial authority.
So there's no difference between your claims about Ukraine and mine .

Nope. There's a big difference. Because mine are true and yours are false.

Hence why I can support what I say, and you either refuse to support them or pretend you never said them.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nope. There's a big difference. Because mine are true and yours are false.

Hence why I can support what I say, and you either refuse to support them or pretend you never said them.

Because you're right and I am wrong, a priori?

You didn't demonstrate your claims, I am sorry.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because you're right and I am wrong, a priori?

No. Pay attention. I said I am right because I support what I say with facts, hence my claims are facts. You either refuse to support what you say, or you back off saying it.

You didn't demonstrate your claims, I am sorry.

I demonstrated that you lied about Poroshenko, I pushed you on your claims about the confidential document that "prove Putin wants peace" and you deleted all mention of your claims, I am now pushing you on your claim that there was widespread violence against civilians by the Poroshenko government and the Azov Battallion, and you're refusing to support that claim too.

Estro, I am a considering blocking you. All you ever do is make claims and then act coy and refuse to support them when pushed. This is a debate forum. If you're not going to bring facts, and only bring insinuations and outright lies, then there is no point in reading your posts.

 

[Estro Felino]

No. Pay attention. I said I am right because I support what I say with facts, hence my claims are facts. You either refuse to support what you say, or you back off saying it.


I demonstrated that you lied about Poroshenko, I pushed you on your claims about the confidential document that "prove Putin wants peace" and you deleted all mention of your claims, I am now pushing you on your claim that there was widespread violence against civilians by the Poroshenko government and the Azov Battallion, and you're refusing to support that claim too.

Estro, I am a considering blocking you. All you ever do is make claims and then act coy and refuse to support them when pushed. This is a debate forum. If you're not going to bring facts, and only bring insinuations and outright lies, then there is no point in reading your posts.

The debate goes both ways. It's not a monologue where you state what truth is, a priori.
I answer all your questions.
Do you always answer my questions?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The debate goes both way.
I answer all your questions.

Yet another lie.

Do you always answer my questions?

Yes.

Lie one more time and I will block you.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes.

Ok, since you claim you answer all my questions, answer this:
what was Victoria Nuland doing in Ukraine, in 2014, during Maidan?
And tell me the significance of this transcript. Thank you in advance.
Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ok, since you claim you answer all my questions, answer this:
what was Victoria Nuland doing in Ukraine, in 2014, during Maidan?
And tell me the significance of this transcript. Thank you in advance.
Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

Geopolitics.

And yes, I had heard about this call. It's basically nothing.

 

[Estro Felino]

Geopolitics.

And yes, I had heard about this call. It's basically nothing.

This is not answering a question.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This is not answering a question.

Yes it is. It's a direct answer to what you asked.

Is that another lie?

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes it is. It's a direct answer to what you asked.

Is that another lie?

She went there because evidently the American Deep State sided against pro-Russian forces in Ukraine since 2014 and some Sorosian organization backed Maidan.
That audio is very clear. And I would like to interrogate Mrs Nuland in an Italian court. As a premise, if a witness doesn't answer question, they will be sentenced to jail for reticent testimony, according to our penal procedure.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

She went there because evidently the American Deep State sided against pro-Russian forces in Ukraine since 2014 and some Sorosian organization backed Maidan.

There is nothing "deep-state" about it. It's obvious that the US would back a more pro-west regime in Ukraine. That's how geopolitics works.

This isn't cloak and dagger. This is modern politics.

That audio is very clear.

It's very clear that she has choice words about the EU. Otherwise, nope.

And I would like to interrogate Mrs Nuland in an Italian court. As a premise, if a witness doesn't answer question, they will be sentenced to jail for reticent testimony.

Your weird fantasy has no relation to reality. There is no evidence of anything illegal, and your attempt to spin this call into some massive conspiracy is childish and tiring.

Got anything else?

 

[Estro Felino]

There is nothing "deep-state" about it. It's obvious that the US would back a more pro-west regime in Ukraine. That's how geopolitics works.
.

It's not how geopolitics works.
Because the United States has no right to interfere with the politics of an European country, that is not even in the NATO. That has nothing to do with the US.

And by the way, after hearing that video, I can suspect that they spent seven years to ignite a conflict between Russians and Ukrainians, first with Crimea, now with Donbas.
Because Obama excluded Russia from G8 and isolated Russia very soon...in 2014-2015.
That probably was a very sly and inexorable operation to provoke a conflict.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's not how geopolitics works.
Because the United States has no right to interfere with the politics of an European country, that is not even in the NATO. That has nothing to do with the US.

There's nothing that even suggests interference in the call. The US has a right to make whatever offers it wants to whatever country it wants, and countries have the right to reject or accept it. This can lead to what is called neo-colonialism.

And, while I am not a fan of neo-colonialism, I still believe it is better than what Russia is doing. I.E: ACTUAL COLONIALISM.

See, you say the US has no right to interfere with the politics of another country, but then make no mention of Russia's history of doing that very same thing. Only they tend to do it with actual violence. You know, tanks and stuff. They curry favour by threatening violence and funding separatist terror groups. The US curry favour by developing generally more-mutually-beneficial trade agreements.

I prefer the latter to the former. You may disagree. You may think a country choosing to have war crimes inflicted against it is more in their self-interest than choosing to have more money and influence. Evidently, Ukraine disagrees.

And by the way, after hearing that video, I can suspect that they spent seven years to ignite a conflict between Russians and Ukrainians, first with Crimea, now with Donbas.

And if you stop and listen carefully, you may hear the wind calling your name.

People can hear all sorts of stuff if they use their imagination. Did you know there's a face in the moon?

And how wonderfully convenient that you can basically blame everyone but Russia for the things Russia does. Top marks for effort.

Because Obama excluded Russia from G8 and isolate Russia very soon...in 2014-2015.
That was a very sly and inexorable operation to provoke a conflict.

Then maybe Russia should stop being a fascist, authoritarian, imperialist state that is constantly stirring up wars and killing its neighbours.

Just an idea.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is nothing "deep-state" about it. It's obvious that the US would back a more pro-west regime in Ukraine. That's how geopolitics works.

To be fair, this is the one area where I think the US doesn't exactly look innocent. Taking for granted that the US will back pro-Western regimes or try to overthrow anti-Western ones has resulted in their propping up dictatorships and puppets around the world just because of their own interests, the rights of populations be damned. Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq are just a few examples out of many.

Russia is in the wrong for invading Ukraine, but it's also important to consider why so many people are side-eyeing the US. Many of us outside the West are tired of its interventionism, abusive foreign policy, and moralizing double standards. History indicates that the US would probably back an invasion similar to Putin's or at least turn a blind eye to it if its geopolitical interests aligned with it.