sabbath

[Levite]

Why would Christians need to keep the Shabbat? You don't keep any of the other commandments. And you're not Jews, who were the ones actually commanded to keep Shabbat.

It seems ludicrous to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Smells like a fallacy of presumption to me...

Wait - so do you think that it can be legal to do evil under God's law?

Why would Christians need to keep the Shabbat? You don't keep any of the other commandments. And you're not Jews, who were the ones actually commanded to keep Shabbat.

It seems ludicrous to me.

I've found it strange how they tend to be very selective about which commandments to follow; circumcision isn't necessary, but keeping the Sabbath is.

Reminds me of my wife's church: it has an altar of unfinished stone, but there are steps leading up to it.

 

[Pegg]

Perhaps that is what the Watchtower is teaching you but that is certainly not what Scripture teaches.

1Timothy 4 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. 4 The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it].

I guess it depends on where you focus your attention.

There are two different Greek words for rest used in Heb 4 and one of them is "sabbatismos" which literally means a "keeping of the sabbath". It's amazing how Christians perform somersaults over this simple passage. But that's ok. It is supposed to be this way. God is not attempting to save us all just yet, right?

ok, so let me ask you
Do you keep a beard?
Lev 19:27 “‘YOU must not cut YOUR sidelocks short around, and you must not destroy the extremity of your beard

Do you only buy clothing of one type of material?
Lev 19:19 ...must not put upon yourself a garment of two sorts of thread, mixed together.

Do you put a blue thread and fringe around the bottom of all your clothing?
Numbers 15:38 “they must make for themselves fringed edges upon the skirts of their garments throughout their generations, and they must put a blue string above the fringed edge of the skirt, 39 ‘And it must serve as a fringed edge for YOU, and YOU must see it and remember all the commandments of Jehovah and do them


Do you celebrate all the jewish festivals as required under the mosaic law?
Lev 23;4 “‘These are the seasonal festivals of Jehovah, holy conventions, which YOU should proclaim at their appointed times: 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover...6 “‘And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes...27 “However, on the tenth of this seventh month is the day of atonement...34‘On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the festival of booths for seven days...

Have you obeyed the mosaic law which requires that fornicators and adulterers be stoned?


If you dont obey ALL of the mosaic laws, then you are transgressor against them all. James 2:10 For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all

 

[james2ko]

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1Timothy 4 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. 4 The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it].I guess it depends on where you focus your attention.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1. So what you are implying is that it's perfectly acceptable to engage in cannibalism and the consumption of poisonous plants?--or are there exceptions? [/FONT]
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ok, so let me ask you Do you keep a beard? Lev 19:27 “‘YOU must not cut YOUR sidelocks short around, and you must not destroy the extremity of your beard

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2. Understanding the historical and situational context is key to deriving at an accurate interpretation and drawing out modern day parallels in keeping with the "principle" of these civil statues. It was the custom of some heathen nations to cut and trim their beards and hair into particular shapes in honor of some pagan god. The Egyptians, for example, had their hair cut short and in a certain way, so that what remained appeared in the form of a circle surrounding the head (the halo was derived from this). In another instance, a round spot would be shaved off. Both of these forms are indications of sun god worship.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Modern forms of such extremes include: extremely short or even no hair to intimidate (eg Nazis, skinheads); strangely cut, colored or spiked hair to intimidate, but also to attract undue attention (eg punk rockers, the more recent "Gothic" look, etc.); strangely cut and colored hair at sporting events (a form of idol worship); and many others.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Shaving one's facial hair and the regular cutting of the hair on one’s head for normal good grooming however, is something totally different and, in fact, should be common practices for Christians (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)... As with most things, moderation and respect should play the higher role and if in any doubt, "Abstain from all appearance of evil" (I Thes. 5:22).[/FONT]
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Do you only buy clothing of one type of material? Lev 19:19 ...must not put upon yourself a garment of two sorts of thread, mixed together.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3. These verses discuss the concept of mixing materials and fibers that are of completely different characteristics. But many do not understand that these verses do allow for the mixture of certain fabrics while being within God’s Law. God established these laws to ensure that low quality fabrics are not produced.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]While it is not a sin to own such products, it is recommended that you buy the best quality that you can afford. Your appearance should honor God. Cheap imitations, either in clothing or one’s character, do not. If you buy quality clothing, you are setting an example. If this example extends to your conduct, you are representing the lifestyle of a quality Christian. That honors both yourself and God.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Let's not forget these civil laws applied to daily living in Israel. Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct. [/FONT]
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Do you put a blue thread and fringe around the bottom of all your clothing? Numbers 15:38 “they must make for themselves fringed edges upon the skirts of their garments throughout their generations, and they must put a blue string above the fringed edge of the skirt, 39 ‘And it must serve as a fringed edge for YOU, and YOU must see it and remember all the commandments of Jehovah and do them

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4. This physical reminder of the commandments is no longer necessary for Spiritual Israel. God made a provision to remind us by writing them in our hearts. (Jer 31:33)[/FONT]
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Do you celebrate all the jewish festivals as required under the mosaic law? Lev 23;4 “‘These are the seasonal festivals of Jehovah, holy conventions, which YOU should proclaim at their appointed times: 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover...6 “‘And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes...27 “However, on the tenth of this seventh month is the day of atonement...34‘On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the festival of booths for seven days...

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]5. As a matter a fact I do..We will be celebrating the Fall Holy Days shortly. Following the example set by Christ and the Apostles.[/FONT]
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Have you obeyed the mosaic law which requires that fornicators and adulterers be stoned?

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]6. In 2 Cor 3:7-11, Paul does away with the administration of the death penalty for the NT church (spiritual Israel). It was originally instituted to show physical Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was part of the law code which was "added because of transgressions" (Gal.3:19). The administration of death, as well as the sacrificial laws, were "added" to God’s immutable, spiritual laws-of which the ten commandments are the basis. But the administration of death was only to last "till the seed (Christ) should come."[/FONT]
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If you dont obey ALL of the mosaic laws, then you are transgressor against them all. James 2:10 For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]7. Notice what "LAW" James was referring to in the next 3 verses----The Law of God (10 Commandments) which was given at creation and reiterated at Sinai;[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “Do not murder.”[c]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.[/FONT]

​

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I strive to obey all 10 of God's commandments..Now Christ wants to know-------If you claim to love Him, why aren't you? (John 14:15)[/FONT]

 

[james2ko]

Wait - so do you think that it can be legal to do evil under God's law?

So...

1- it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.?
2- is it ever lawful to do evil, Sabbath or not?

Assuming your answer is no, then we end up with something like "do good on the Sabbath, just like any other day."

You've created a false dilemma by assuming my answer to both questions would be no. My answer to the first question would actually be yes and no for the second--hence creating a fallacy of presumption.

 

[james2ko]

Why would Christians need to keep the Shabbat? You don't keep any of the other commandments. And you're not Jews, who were the ones actually commanded to keep Shabbat.

It seems ludicrous to me.

Christ tells us the Sabbath was made for man--not just for the Jews (Mk 2:27) As I pointed out to pegg, we strive to keep-- in principle-- the civil law of Moses. As you well know, we Christians believe the sacrificial system was replaced by the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Pegg]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2. Understanding the historical and situational context is key to deriving at an accurate interpretation and drawing out modern day parallels in keeping with the "principle" of these civil statues. It was the custom of some heathen nations to cut and trim their beards and hair[/FONT]

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and it still is the custom of some nations and people to do so as you pointed out.

So you are ok with not following that particular mosaic law to stand out as different from them. Ok. next.


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[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Shaving one's facial hair and the regular cutting of the hair on one’s head for normal good grooming however, is something totally different and, in fact, should be common practices for Christians (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)... As with most things, moderation and respect should play the higher role and if in any doubt, "Abstain from all appearance of evil" (I Thes. 5:22).[/FONT]

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I agree. But Gods view according to the mosaic law is that facial hair on a man is the standard that he wants followed. Or do you think that particular law is only applicable to some and not all?

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3. These verses discuss the concept of mixing materials and fibers that are of completely different characteristics. [/FONT]

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im glad you know the principle....so why do you not follow that particular law then? You understand it, yet you dont follow it...seeing you think we should keep the mosaic law, im confused why you dont keep this one.
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Let's not forget these civil laws applied to daily living in Israel. Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct. [/FONT]

except for those ones about sporting a nice manly beard and wearing certain type of clothing???

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4. This physical reminder of the commandments is no longer necessary for Spiritual Israel. God made a provision to remind us by writing them in our hearts. (Jer 31:33)[/FONT]

so you dont believe that spiritual isreal should be bound by the physical mosaic laws because you see that the law should be in our hearts. Yet it seems you are still keen to keep a list of mosaic laws to follow. Do you think you may have missed the point here?

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]6. In 2 Cor 3:7-11, Paul does away with the administration of the death penalty for the NT church (spiritual Israel). It was originally instituted to show physical Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was part of the law code which was "added because of transgressions" (Gal.3:19). The administration of death, as well as the sacrificial laws, were "added" to God’s immutable, spiritual laws-of which the ten commandments are the basis. But the administration of death was only to last "till the seed (Christ) should come."[/FONT]

The mosaic law is one part of a whole. You cannot break it up into little bits and use some of it and throw the rest away and yet claim it is the mosaic law.

If i gave you a bicycle but took the wheels and handle bar off and told you to take it for a spin, you'd look at it and laugh. That is what you are doing with the mosaic law. You are taking a few little pieces of it and still calling it the Mosaic Law code.

the code was one complete law code which formed a legally binding contract between God and Isreal. The 10 commandments were the first of 613 other commands and regulations. If you want to be bound by the contract God gave Isreal, you must abide by all the laws otherwise you are breaking your contract with God.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I strive to obey all 10 of God's commandments..Now Christ wants to know-------If you claim to love Him, why aren't you? (John 14:15)[/FONT]

thats commendable of you. However, if you judge others by their obedience to those 10 commandments, you will be judged by them too. And if you happen to falter in just one of them, you have broken them all.

I hope you never say a bad word or have a negative thought about anyone you really dislike....oops...you cannot dislike anyone actually, you must love unconditionally every one you know or will ever come in contact with.

That is a difficult thing for an imperfect person to achieve. You would have to be exactly like Jesus to live perfectly by the law to 'love your neighbor as yourself' ....actually, you'd have to be perfect yourself.


This is why God took the mosaic law out of the way...we are not perfect and we cannot live perfectly by that law. We have a very long way to go before we are anywhere near perfect enough to fully live by such standards. The mosaic law highlights the sin in mankind. It is far better to live according to faith and be judged by your faith in christ rather then be judged by your inability to keep ALL of the mosaic law perfectly.
Remember, we are under Gods 'undeserved kindness'... not mosaic law:
Romans 6:14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness

 

[james2ko]

and it still is the custom of some nations and people to do so as you pointed out. So you are ok with not following that particular mosaic law to stand out as different from them. Ok. next.

1. I'm not concerned about the customs of other nations, my only concern is following God's instructions.

I agree. But Gods view according to the mosaic law is that facial hair on a man is the standard that he wants followed. Or do you think that particular law is only applicable to some and not all?

2. The passage does not state you MUST have a beard:

Lev 19:27 states: "You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard."​

The law applies for those who wish to have one. So back to my question that you ignored regarding 1 Tim 4:3-4. Is Paul implying that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in cannibalism and the consumption of poisonous plants?

im glad you know the principle....so why do you not follow that particular law then? You understand it, yet you dont follow it...seeing you think we should keep the mosaic law, im confused why you dont keep this one.

3. We follow it in principle as explained in post 24 point 3. Some statutes only apply in an agrarian environment. Our society is incomprehensibly different to the point where some of the statues cannot be followed to the letter but we should make every attempt to implement the principles behind them. There are others like releasing debts every seventh year(Deut 15:2) which we cannot implement, until the whole world is under Christ's rule.

so you dont believe that spiritual isreal should be bound by the physical mosaic laws because you see that the law should be in our hearts. Yet it seems you are still keen to keep a list of mosaic laws to follow. Do you think you may have missed the point here?

4. You don't seem to understand the ten commandments are a set of stand alone commands. God placed them in the hearts of New Covenant Christians--in a spiritual sense-- as a REMINDER to us. Similarly, He set up a physical reminder for the Israelites in Num 15:38-40.

If i gave you a bicycle but took the wheels and handle bar off and told you to take it for a spin, you'd look at it and laugh. That is what you are doing with the mosaic law. You are taking a few little pieces of it and still calling it the Mosaic Law code.

.
5. The Ten commandments are the whole "bicycle". They stood on their own for thousands of years before the "accessories" (civil and sacrificial statues) were added at Sinai.

The mosaic law is one part of a whole. You cannot break it up into little bits and use some of it and throw the rest away and yet claim it is the mosaic law. the code was one complete law code which formed a legally binding contract between God and Israel. The 10 commandments were the first of 613 other commands and regulations. If you want to be bound by the contract God gave Israel, you must abide by all the laws otherwise you are breaking your contract with God.

6. If the mosaic law is one part of a whole, as you claim, than the bible contradicts itself. In Rom 7:12, Paul calls the law "holy, just and good". Then in Gal 3:10 he completely contradicts himself by saying: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM." If the Mosaic law is one part of a whole, how can the law be holy, just and good yet at the same time be a curse??? Doesn't make sense...But if Paul is referring to different components of the law such as the sacrificial statutes, which he refers to in Galatians 3 and the Ten commandments, as referred to in Romans 7, than it makes perfect sense!

That is a difficult thing for an imperfect person to achieve.You would have to be exactly like Jesus to live perfectly by the law to 'love your neighbor as yourself' ....actually, you'd have to be perfect yourself.

God doesn't expect us to be sinless (Rom 3:23) but He does expect us to sin less (1 Jn 2:1)​

7. God is not looking for "perfect" people. He is looking for those with a teachable, humble, repentant spirit. For instance, take King David, he certainly had his issues. When he made a mistake, he took full responsibility; remorsefully asked for God's forgiveness; and took the necessary measures to ensure it wouldn't happen again. These are the qualities God is looking for and if we deliver, we can also be, as David, men and women after God's own heart (1 Sam 13:14; Acts 13:22).

thats commendable of you. However, if you judge others by their obedience to those 10 commandments, you will be judged by them too. And if you happen to falter in just one of them, you have broken them all. I hope you never say a bad word or have a negative thought about anyone you really dislike....oops...you cannot dislike anyone actually, you must love unconditionally every one you know or will ever come in contact with.

8. It wasn't a problem for Abraham whom God said ".... obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws (Gen 26:5). If you recall Abraham wasn't perfect. He had a fibbing problem among other issues; or David who had his own problems. What about Paul-- who also struggled with his own imperfections (Rom 7:15)? These imperfect people all have a place in God's kingdom.

This is why God took the mosaic law out of the way...we are not perfect and we cannot live perfectly by that law. We have a very long way to go before we are anywhere near perfect enough to fully live by such standards.

9. This is the answer Christ gave His disciples who struggled with a somewhat similar concern:

Mar 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."​

The mosaic law highlights the sin in mankind. It is far better to live according to faith and be judged by your faith in christ rather then be judged by your inability to keep ALL of the mosaic law perfectly. Remember, we are under Gods 'undeserved kindness'... not mosaic law: Romans 6:14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness

10. Paul is correct. True Christians are not "UNDER LAW" but under grace. The question becomes which law are we no longer under? Paul explains in Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."!! The rest of Romans 6 makes this plain!!

 

[Desert Snake]

do we need to keep Holy the sabbath?:yes::yes:​

nope.

 

[Pegg]

1. I'm not concerned about the customs of other nations, my only concern is following God's instructions.

2. The passage does not state you MUST have a beard:

Lev 19:27 states: "You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard."​

The law applies for those who wish to have one. So back to my question that you ignored regarding 1 Tim 4:3-4. Is Paul implying that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in cannibalism and the consumption of poisonous plants?

so you think that even the jews could apply some laws but not all of them, interesting.
why would God give these laws in the first place if he did not want everyone to follow them?

3. We follow it in principle as explained in post 24 point 3. Some statutes only apply in an agrarian environment. Our society is incomprehensibly different to the point where some of the statues cannot be followed to the letter but we should make every attempt to implement the principles behind them. There are others like releasing debts every seventh year(Deut 15:2) which we cannot implement, until the whole world is under Christ's rule.

Our society is very different and i agree, it would be completely impracticle to attempt to apply many of the mosaic laws. Most westerners are not into agriculture for a start...so how do you bring the firstfruits of your harvests in for the many harvest festivals??? If you dont grow a crop, you cant celebrate such festivals the way an Isrealite could.

However, the law about releasing those in debt to you, could be applied by individuals like yourself....so if you are not applying it, how are you following the principle of freeing people indebted to you?

4. You don't seem to understand the ten commandments are a set of stand alone commands. God placed them in the hearts of New Covenant Christians--in a spiritual sense-- as a REMINDER to us. Similarly, He set up a physical reminder for the Israelites in Num 15:38-40.
.
5. The Ten commandments are the whole "bicycle". They stood on their own for thousands of years before the "accessories" (civil and sacrificial statues) were added at Sinai.

Jesus didnt cite all of the 10 commandments as the most important. When Jesus was asked which commandments were the utmost important, he only cited two and he said that on just two, the entire law of God hangs

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

Jesus could have gone on to recite the following 8 commandments, but he didnt because Love is the key to obeying all of Gods laws. If you have love, you dont need a list of laws and you dont need to observe the sabbath, or wear particular clothing, or eat certain foods to show your love... God know how much you love him without any outward display.

6. If the mosaic law is one part of a whole, as you claim, than the bible contradicts itself. In Rom 7:12, Paul calls the law "holy, just and good". Then in Gal 3:10 he completely contradicts himself by saying: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM." If the Mosaic law is one part of a whole, how can the law be holy, just and good yet at the same time be a curse??? Doesn't make sense...

Of course the law of God is holy because God is holy and his standards of perfection are described by that mosiac law. but anyone who tries to follow that law is 'cursed'because the mosaic law highlighted the sin of mankind. When you sin, you are cursed with death. "the wages sin pays is death" Death is the curse Paul is referring to and thats why he said if you remain in the mosaic law, you will be cursed because everyone of us are sinners and are unable to completely fulfill the requirements of that law.

But if Paul is referring to different components of the law such as the sacrificial statutes, which he refers to in Galatians 3 and the Ten commandments, as referred to in Romans 7, than it makes perfect sense!

God doesn't expect us to be sinless (Rom 3:23) but He does expect us to sin less (1 Jn 2:1)​

exactly... and that is why he removed the mosaic law as requirement for people to obey. The law highlighted sin. God does not want to highlight peoples sin. He wants to remove it.

The first way to do that is by removing the mosaic law so that people do not have to be condemned to death.
​

 

[Desert Snake]

Once again, it depends on definitions. I consider going out to a busy restaurant "breaking the sabbath", for instance.

 

[tumbleweed41]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I strive to obey all 10 of God's commandments..Now Christ wants to know-------If you claim to love Him, why aren't you? (John 14:15)[/FONT]

Christ wants to know why you forgot the other 603 "commandments" from God?

 

[james2ko]

so you think that even the jews could apply some laws but not all of them, interesting. why would God give these laws in the first place if he did not want everyone to follow them?

1. There is no law stating "you must have a beard". The law in Lev 19:27 applies to those who wish to have one. It is just like the laws for the treatment of servants. If the individual and or family did not have or could not afford one, the laws did not apply. So back to my question that you ignored twice so far regarding 1 Tim 4:3-4. Is Paul implying that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in cannibalism and the consumption of poisonous plants?

Our society is very different and i agree, it would be completely impracticle to attempt to apply many of the mosaic laws. Most westerners are not into agriculture for a start...so how do you bring the firstfruits of your harvests in for the many harvest festivals??? If you dont grow a crop, you cant celebrate such festivals the way an Isrealite could.

2. We equate a harvest to our earned income. We save 10% of our "increase" for the festival seasons as outlined in Deut 14:22-26.

However, the law about releasing those in debt to you, could be applied by individuals like yourself....so if you are not applying it, how are you following the principle of freeing people indebted to you?

3. By not lending money but giving it as a gift to those in need-- as we are able.

Jesus didnt cite all of the 10 commandments as the most important. When Jesus was asked which commandments were the utmost important, he only cited two and he said that on just two, the entire law of God hangs. Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

4. Looking at Exodus 20, I do not see the two commandments Jesus uttered. What I do see is the first four commandments show our love toward God and the last six imply our love toward our neighbor. Jesus was merely quoting from the Old Testament (Lev 19:18; Deut 6:5) which the Israelites understood were summary statements encompassing the 10 commandments!! In no way did they believe this to mean obedience to the 10 commandments was no longer necessary!! And Christ tells us neither should we! (Mt 5:17)

Jesus could have gone on to recite the following 8 commandments,

5. Eight commandments? Which two out of the ten did Jesus replace?

but he didnt because Love is the key to obeying all of Gods laws. If you have love, you dont need a list of laws and you dont need to observe the sabbath, or wear particular clothing, or eat certain foods to show your love... God know how much you love him without any outward display.

6. And Jesus defined love as:

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

John wrote: 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
​

Christ used the same Greek word for "commandments" (entole) He used when magnifying (Isa 42:21) the law (ten commandments), starting in Mat 5:19!!

Of course the law of God is holy because God is holy and his standards of perfection are described by that mosiac law.

7. You continue to equate the law of God (ten commandments) to the law of Moses. The 10 commandments and Mosaic law, consisting of the health, civil, and sacrificial statues, were two separate sets of laws that were distinct in many ways. They had different authors, were originally written on different materials, spoken by different law-givers, placed in different locations in the ark and had totally different content.

The 10 commandments and other laws were given to Adam and passed down to his descendants (Gen 26:5). The Mosaic law, given later, consisted of laws and statutes which were already in force as well as the addition of new ones. What was temporary were the sacrificial laws, as Paul points out in Hebrews and Galatians-- not the Ten Commandments which stand forever (Psa 111:7-8).

but anyone who tries to follow that law is 'cursed'because the mosaic law highlighted the sin of mankind.When you sin, you are cursed with death. "the wages sin pays is death" Death is the curse Paul is referring to and thats why he said if you remain in the mosaic law, you will be cursed because everyone of us are sinners and are unable to completely fulfill the requirements of that law.

8. Ok let me get this straight. The bible states if we try to follow ten commandments today we are cursed. In Rev 22:14, God states those who do His commandments [entole-same Greek word used by Christ when referring to the 10 commandments] will be blessed? So God will curse those who obey them today yet bless those who obey them in the future????
'

exactly... and that is why he removed the mosaic law as requirement for people to obey. The law highlighted sin. God does not want to highlight peoples sin.

9. God’s Law (ten commandments) is like a spiritual mirror. By looking into it, we see our errors and faults--sins. Now, unless we take the necessary steps to remove the sin by belief, repentance, and baptism (Act 2:38) the mirror has not helped us. Also, would the faults disappear just by simply eliminating the mirror? Of course not! The mirror only provides a way to examine yourself. Like any mirror, Gods law must be used. While it cannot wash away your dirt, it will expose the dirt that is there. Remember, Paul wrote that "by the deeds of the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin," and that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." The law will not remove the dirt. It simply notifies you that dirt is present.

He wants to remove it [sin]

10. We proved here God is not attempting to remove mankind's sins and save them in this age:

 

[Rakhel]

4. Looking at Exodus 20, I do not see the two commandments Jesus uttered. What I do see is the first four commandments show our love toward God and the last six imply our love toward our neighbor. Jesus was merely quoting from the Old Testament (Lev 19:18; Deut 6:5) which the Israelites understood were summary statements encompassing the 10 commandments!! In no way did they believe this to mean obedience to the 10 commandments was no longer necessary!! And Christ tells us neither should we! (Mt 5:17)

If I may interject here. I have been having fun watching this but find it necessary to explain what is being argued.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

You are right when you stated that the bold part is not in the "10 Commandments," however, Pegg is also right in that it is part of the 613 mitzvot.

It is part of the Shema.Judaism 101: Shema

Deuteronomy 6:5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

and again in

Duet. 11:13. And it will be, if you hearken to My commandments that I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deuteronomy - Chapter 11 (Parshah Eikev and Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

So if you plan on just observing the "10 Commandments," You are ignoring everything Jesus said of you to do.


Oh and Pegg, they fixed their site. It has Hebrew text next to the English if you care to look. They might even have to Rashi commentary. (they had some problems and may have gotten it fixed. I'll have to look)
​

 

[Rakhel]

oh yeah, my husband reminded me. That golden rule
Matthew 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Is found within this Mitzvot(commandment/law)
Leviticus 19:18. You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
(emphasis mine)
And also here in the talmud

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
—Talmud, Shabbat 31a
Rabbi Hillel

​

 

[Pegg]

So back to my question that you ignored twice so far regarding 1 Tim 4:3-4. Is Paul implying that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in cannibalism and the consumption of poisonous plants?

Paul said all 'foods'

Im sure people know what is food and what is not. God said that all the trees of the garden could be used for food....did he mean the leaves and branches as well?

You are asking questions for the sake of argument. We know what is edible and what is not.

6. And Jesus defined love as:

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

John wrote: 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.​

And what was Jesus commandment? It certainly wasnt to strictly obey the mosaic law...it was this:

John 13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”


​

Christ used the same Greek word for "commandments" (entole) He used when magnifying (Isa 42:21) the law (ten commandments), starting in Mat 5:19!!

He wasnt just talking about the 10 commandments in Matthew 5...he was talking about all the mosaic law code. You are still breaking the law code into small pieces....every regulation of the law code links back to one of the 10 commandments. So if you think that you can ignore all the regulations that link to those 10, you are mistaken.


Matthew 5:19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments...he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens

If you break just one mosaic law, you break them all.

7. You continue to equate the law of God (ten commandments) to the law of Moses. The 10 commandments and Mosaic law, consisting of the health, civil, and sacrificial statues, were two separate sets of laws that were distinct in many ways. They had different authors, were originally written on different materials, spoken by different law-givers, placed in different locations in the ark and had totally different content.

When God gave moses the Ten Commandments, it was in order to set forth the principles upon which all other laws were to be based.
So you seem to think that only the 10 commandments are important, but what you are neglecting to realize is that every other law is established by the 10 commandments.

Its kind of like the 'declaration of independence' or the 'constitution' All of americas laws are linked to those conditions as set in those documents. If someone tries to do something against a persons freedom of speech, the law upholds the principle of freedom of speech.

Its the same with the mosaic laws. The binding principles are in the Ten commandments... and all the other laws are an application of one of the Ten commandments. So if you ignore the application of the principles of Gods laws, then you are a law breaker in Gods eyes. Its as simple as that.

8. Ok let me get this straight. The bible states if we try to follow ten commandments today we are cursed. In Rev 22:14, God states those who do His commandments [entole-same Greek word used by Christ when referring to the 10 commandments] will be blessed? So God will curse those who obey them today yet bless those who obey them in the future????

you are interpreting the word to mean the 10 commandments, but the christian position on adherence to the mosaic law was already settled. Christians did not view themselves as bound to the mosaic law, so John is obviously not saying that they must obey the mosaic law code.

Christians were called to righteousness by their faith. Faith was the standard by which they were being judged...not works of law.
'

 

[Pegg]

Oh and Pegg, they fixed their site. It has Hebrew text next to the English if you care to look. They might even have to Rashi commentary. (they had some problems and may have gotten it fixed. I'll have to look)
​

cheers for that, i've bookmarked it now.

 

[james2ko]

Paul said all 'foods' Im sure people know what is food and what is not. God said that all the trees of the garden could be used for food....did he mean the leaves and branches as well?

1. I'm sure He had to explain this to an unwitting Adam..

You are asking questions for the sake of argument. We know what is edible and what is not.

2. So did Paul. As an ex-Pharisee, he knew what foods were "edible" and which ones were not from his knowledge of Lev 11 and Deut 14, which I'm sure he passed on to his congregants.

And what was Jesus commandment? It certainly wasnt to strictly obey the mosaic law...it was this: John 13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.

3. This was merely a magnification of the "love your neighbor" command. In now way does it negate or supersede the others.

He wasnt just talking about the 10 commandments in Matthew 5...he was talking about all the mosaic law code.

4. If He were referring to the entirety of the Mosaic law, why didn't He expand the sacrificial laws as He did the Moral law (commandments)? This is just one piece of evidence the Mosaic law was not one law but consisted of separate components, as explained in point 7!

You are still breaking the law code into small pieces....every regulation of the law code links back to one of the 10 commandments. So if you think that you can ignore all the regulations that link to those 10, you are mistaken.

5. What you don't seem to understand is that every regulation does not apply in every circumstance, at all times, as I illustrated with Lev 19:27.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments...he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. If you break just one mosaic law, you break them all.

6. This means Jesus was a sinner and we have no Savior!!! Do you think Jesus followed all 613 laws as outlined in the Torah? Of course not. Israel was under Roman rule. Many of the laws given in the Torah could not be followed. Even today, Jews cannot obey all 613 of the Mosaic laws to the letter. For one; they have no temple [not required for Christians] and two; our modern society is so radically different that following some of the laws would actually be illegal in some places.

When God gave moses the Ten Commandments, it was in order to set forth the principles upon which all other laws were to be based. So you seem to think that only the 10 commandments are important, but what you are neglecting to realize is that every other law is established by the 10 commandments. Its kind of like the 'declaration of independence' or the 'constitution' All of americas laws are linked to those conditions as set in those documents. If someone tries to do something against a persons freedom of speech, the law upholds the principle of freedom of speech. Its the same with the mosaic laws. The binding principles are in the Ten commandments... and all the other laws are an application of one of the Ten commandments. So if you ignore the application of the principles of Gods laws, then you are a law breaker in Gods eyes. Its as simple as that.

7. Your example actually proves my point. There are Federal, State, and local laws which uphold the constitution. Within those jurisdictions, there are many other statutes and ordinances (traffic, criminal, marriage laws, etc) that regulate daily living. Similar to the civil and sacrificial statutes that regulated ancient Israels daily living. These laws and statutes can be added to, modified, and rescinded, depending on a variety of circumstances. This is precisely what Christ and Paul did in Mat 5 and in Hebrews 9, respectively. But the constitution, like its parallel--- the 10 commandments, must be upheld. That was a terrific example. Thanks!

you are interpreting the word to mean the 10 commandments, but the christian position on adherence to the mosaic law was already settled. Christians did not view themselves as bound to the mosaic law,

8. I believe you are mistaken. There is historical evidence John was a quartodeciman--a Latin term derived from the Passover statute in Lev 23:5. His successor, Polycarp, observed the Passover on the 14th of abib while in Asia Minor, years after the gospels were written. There are also indications Polycarp observed the sabbath. If Polycarp observed the Passover and kept the sabbath, there's no doubt he learned it from his teacher who learned it from Christ! Notice how John used the same exact Greek word Christ used in Mat 5 to describe the moral law (10 commandments)--entole. You're using tradition to form your interpretation. We both know what Christ said about that.

so John is obviously not saying that they must obey the mosaic law code.

9. You say John is not referring to the 10 commandments in Rev 22:14. But the text indicates different. Notice the very next verse: "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." John emphasizes the breaking of at least four of the ten commandments he just mentioned the verse before! And how those who break them will not enter the city!! There is no indication John meant anything else. He was undoubtedly referring to God's Constitution---the ten commandments.

Christians were called to righteousness by their faith. Faith was the standard by which they were being judged...not works of law.

10. Again, that is not what the bible teaches Notice:

Jas 2:12 So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free​

What law is James referring to? He tells us in the previous verse:

Jas 2:11 For the same God who said, "You must not commit adultery," also said, "You must not murder." So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.​

The TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!

Please don't take this the wrong way. This in no way diminishes my respect for your knowledge and beliefs but I encourage you to do a little less Watchtower reading and engage in more bible reading. You'll be surprised at what you will find..

 

[Pegg]

1. I'm sure He had to explain this to an unwitting Adam..
2. So did Paul. As an ex-Pharisee, he knew what foods were "edible" and which ones were not from his knowledge of Lev 11 and Deut 14, which I'm sure he passed on to his congregants.

I doubt that in the garden of Eden God made noxious weeds grow... the weeds were a curse which came after the expulsion from Eden...so perhaps if Adam had of remained with God, then he would never have even come across such weeds in the first place.

And i wouldnt be so sure that Paul passed on the dietary restrictions to the congregations:
Colossians 2:He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. ....16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; 17 for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ

3. This was merely a magnification of the "love your neighbor" command. In now way does it negate or supersede the others.

Love is the fulfillment of the entire mosaic law:
Romans 13:8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

If you consider that every mosaic law was to protect the interests of individuals, it was to uphold human rights, it was to uphold justice for every man woman and child, then you can see how love of neighbor accomplishes the same thing. If every person truly loved every other person, our world would be a very different place and we wouldnt need any laws or a police force or a criminal justice system... the world would be a perfect place.

4. If He were referring to the entirety of the Mosaic law, why didn't He expand the sacrificial laws as He did the Moral law (commandments)? This is just one piece of evidence the Mosaic law was not one law but consisted of separate components, as explained in point 7!

the Jews knew only one law...the mosaic law. It was more then just a law, it was a contract based on 10 'principles'...and the rest of the laws were tied into these 10 principles. For example, the 10 commandments do not say what the penalty is for being disrespectful to your parents....those details are contained in the other laws.
Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long'
Exodus 21:15 And one who strikes his father and his mother is to be put to death without fail
You can't obey the first law without obeying the 2nd. Thats why the entire law was really one whole. They are all linked up to the principles of the 10 commandments.

5. What you don't seem to understand is that every regulation does not apply in every circumstance, at all times, as I illustrated with Lev 19:27.

that is precisely why the law code was not handed onto the gentile congregation.... The christians were going to spread christianity around the world into every nation.... and it would be ongoing for many centuries so the world would become a very different place over all that time.

the mosaic law could not be applied in many ways...sacrifices, death penalty, agricultural festivals, threshing, retribution, public punishments...all these were regulations of the mosaic law code. These practices are not permitted in many cultures around the world. Its no wonder the christian congregation, through the direction of Gods Holy spirit, did not impose it upon the new believers. The following scripture is the only requirements carried over from the mosaic law as instructed by the holy spirit:
Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

6. This means Jesus was a sinner and we have no Savior!!! Do you think Jesus followed all 613 laws as outlined in the Torah? Of course not. Israel was under Roman rule. Many of the laws given in the Torah could not be followed. Even today, Jews cannot obey all 613 of the Mosaic laws to the letter. For one; they have no temple [not required for Christians] and two; our modern society is so radically different that following some of the laws would actually be illegal in some places.

the only laws Jesus broke were those imposed by the religious authorities known as the 'Oral Law'
He obeyed the mosaic law perfectly... but the oral laws were man made additions to Gods law which had no place .

And no temple means no way to approach God with sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. Christians approach God through the blood of Christ every day. Thats another reason why Christians were told they did not need to follow the mosaic law code.

8. I believe you are mistaken. There is historical evidence John was a quartodeciman--a Latin term derived from the Passover statute in Lev 23:5. His successor, Polycarp, observed the Passover on the 14th of abib while in Asia Minor, years after the gospels were written.

You are talking about the Memorial of Christs death. The 'last supper' as it is called by some, was instituted by Christ at the last passover celebration that he enjoyed with his apostles. They continued to meet on the same night every year to celebrate the sacrifice Christ gave.

That celebration is still carried on today on Nisan 14... we do it and probably some other christians do it.
“The Christians of Asia Minor were called Quartodecimans [Fourteenthers] from their custom of celebrating the pascha [Lord’s Evening Meal] invariably on the 14th of Nisan . . . The date might fall on Friday or on any of the other days of the week.”—The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Volume IV, page 44.

I guess that makes JW's quartodeciman too.

10. Again, that is not what the bible teaches Notice:

Jas 2:12 So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free​

What law is James referring to? He tells us in the previous verse:

Jas 2:11 For the same God who said, "You must not commit adultery," also said, "You must not murder." So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.​

The TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!

The law that sets you free is not the 10 commandments. It is the law of the Christ. Please look at how Paul explains it:
Romans 8 Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. 2 For the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death
Paul speaks of two laws here. The law of 'that spirit' and the law of 'sin and death'
He says that in union with Christ, you've been set free from the law of 'sin and death'

And what is the 'law of sin and death'???
2 Corinthians 3:6 "who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive.

James is speaking about the same thing as Paul...the law of freedom is the law of love as taught by Christ:
James 1:25 But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], ...will be happy in his doing [it]
It is called 'freedom' because it sets us free from the curse of the mosaic law...namely the highlighting of our sins and the condemnation to death because of them.

Please don't take this the wrong way. This in no way diminishes my respect for your knowledge and beliefs but I encourage you to do a little less Watchtower reading and engage in more bible reading. You'll be surprised at what you will find..

I love the watchtower. They teach the scriptures with insight and truth.

 

[james2ko]

I doubt that in the garden of Eden God made noxious weeds grow... the weeds were a curse which came after the expulsion from Eden...so perhaps if Adam had of remained with God, then he would never have even come across such weeds in the first place.

1. Highly speculative.

And i wouldnt be so sure that Paul passed on the dietary restrictions to the congregations: Colossians 2:He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. ....

2. Check your history, pegg. This passage has nothing to do with the dietary restrictions listed in Lev 11 and Deut 14. The term "ordinances" or "decrees" is translated from the Greek word dogma, referring to human laws and decrees--"the commandments and doctrines of men" (Col. 2:22). In this passage

Christ referred to such humanly-devised ordinances in Mark 7:6-9. While Christ’s sacrifice did do away with the need for animal sacrifices, as well as eliminating other physical, priestly duties and various other physical requirements (Heb. 7:12; also again notice Gal. 3:10-13), the "ordinances" referred to pharisaical decrees--none of which involved the dietary laws--that restricted and burdened the Jews and certain ascetic ordinances of "touch not, taste not, handle not" (vs. 21) that had been bound on the Colossian Gentiles. (Notice I Corinthians 8:4-10.)

The city of Colossae was renowned for its asceticism (see wiki article titled Epistle to the Colossians). The Colossian congregration was mostly made up of Pagan members influenced by pagan philosophy complete with its restraints and regulations. The pagans passed judgment on Christians for the freedom they enjoyed--eating meats (again notice I Cor. 8:4-10), drinking wine, and observing Gods weekly and annual Sabbaths in the joyous manner He intended. Notice how this passage ties in perfectly with the next:

16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; 17 for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ

3. Some ascetics in Colossae were teaching that self-denial and will-worship (vs. 20-22) were God’s way (see the Galatians 4:9).They thought refraining from eating and drinking certain foods and drinks and keeping certain days would make them holier.

Notice that the first phrase in verse 17 uses the present tense in reference to the Sabbath and the Holy Days. It says, in effect, "these days are a shadow of things to come." True Christians know that the Sabbath and Holy Days picture the Plan of God, which certainly does involve many "things to come." Verse 18 is a final warning to Christians to not allow anyone to trick them about these important issues, because it is only the Church--the body of Christ--that carried authority to make judgments before the brethren (vs. 17, end).

The real meaning of these verses is that Christians should not let people arbitrarily judge their conduct. Only the Church (Col. 1:18)—"the body of Christ" (2:17)—can do this. Notice that the word "is" is italicized. This means that it was not in the original Greek text. By adding it, translators blurred the true meaning of this passage. The truth is the Colossians were being criticized by unconverted Gentiles because they were keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days! I have presented this before and you have yet to come up with a counter-argument.

Love is the fulfillment of the entire mosaic law:

4. That is what the "gods" of the Watchtower teach but certainly not the God of the bible. The term for "law" in the NT sometimes refers to the Law of Moses. At times is also refers to the 10 commandments and other times it refers to a principle. The context will determine the correct meaning.

Romans 13:8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

If you consider that every mosaic law was to protect the interests of individuals, it was to uphold human rights, it was to uphold justice for every man woman and child, then you can see how love of neighbor accomplishes the same thing. If every person truly loved every other person, our world would be a very different place and we wouldnt need any laws or a police force or a criminal justice system... the world would be a perfect place.

5. We fulfill the law of love by obedience to the instructions that tell us how to do it--The 10 commandments as Jn 14:15 and Jn 15:10 make plain.

the Jews knew only one law...the mosaic law. It was more then just a law, it was a contract based on 10 'principles'...and the rest of the laws were tied into these 10 principles. For example, the 10 commandments do not say what the penalty is for being disrespectful to your parents....those details are contained in the other laws.Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long'Exodus 21:15 And one who strikes his father and his mother is to be put to death without fail You can't obey the first law without obeying the 2nd. Thats why the entire law was really one whole. They are all linked up to the principles of the 10 commandments.

6. This doesn't prove the oneness of the law of Moses. It just proves the judgments associated with the breaking of God's constitution --the Moral law-- is subject to change (ministration of death removed by Paul).

That is precisely why the law code was not handed onto the gentile congregation.... The christians were going to spread christianity around the world into every nation.... and it would be ongoing for many centuries so the world would become a very different place over all that time. the mosaic law could not be applied in many ways...sacrifices, death penalty, agricultural festivals, threshing, retribution, public punishments...all these were regulations of the mosaic law code. These practices are not permitted in many cultures around the world. Its no wonder the christian congregation, through the direction of Gods Holy spirit, did not impose it upon the new believers. The following scripture is the only requirements carried over from the mosaic law as instructed by the holy spirit: Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and fromthings strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

7. You continue to uphold the fallacy of an argument from silence. What you are implying here is that the congregants were ONLY required to follow these four points from the Mosaic law and nothing else. What about lying, stealing, murdering, breaking the sabbath, honoring your father and mother, etc..Are these not also an integral part of, what you reckon, is one Mosaic law? Your argument is beginning to show its true colors, pegg.