PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Holy Spirit in Judaism - Wikipedia
Not a man.
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Salvation in Christianity
- Thread starter Treasure Hunter
- Start date
Not a man.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't believe that the Holy Spirit literally lives inside of people's bodies. Rather, I believe it has a direct connection to their souls.
Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a man, but I believe that the Spirit of truth was a man.
"In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.”
Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp."
Some Answered Questions, p. 109
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never claimed that the Holy Spirit is a man. I only ever said that the Spirit of truth was a man. See post #222 above.Holy Spirit in Judaism - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Not a man.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you. (Jn 14)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never claimed that the Holy Spirit is a man.
John 14:26
KJ21
But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
AMP
But the Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will help you remember everything that I have told you.
The Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby) is the Holy Spirit who the Father sent in Jesus' name to teach all things and bring all things to our remembrance, whatsoever Jesus said unto you.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that proceeds from God.
The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah.
Having received the Holy Spirit from God, Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.
The Comforter is a title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter, who taught all things and testified of Jesus.
Notice the word He in all the verses that refer to the Comforter. He is a man, not a spirit floating around in the air, waiting to land.
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of people and does all the things on the bulleted list below, but it makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16.
Only a Messenger of God who brought the Holy Spirit could do these things:
· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
The reason Jesus said that the Father will give you another Comforter is because Jesus was a Comforter, the Comforter who brought is the Holy Spirit.
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit.
If the Comforter was actually the Holy Spirit as some Christians claim, then what Jesus said would not make any sense since that would mean there is another Holy Spirit, meaning there is more than one Holy Spirit, which is ludicrous!
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
No. In John 14:26 Comforter=HS=he≠man.
This is exactly what HS does inside of people according to the Bible. Some examples:
The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me... (2 Sam 23:2)
And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. (Acts 1:8)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No. In John 14:26 Comforter=HS=he=man.
No, the HS living inside of people does not:
· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Pause for a second and consider what you are claiming. Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Why would he send a man 1800 years later? How is that of any use to his disciples?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus was not 'only' addressing His disciples.
The things below did not happen during the lifetimes of the disciples. They were what Jesus promised would happen when God sent another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.
· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came. None of that happened during the lifetimes of the disciples.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Oh really
That is interesting. I don't see good reason to think so. But, I think more important is, what is the message, if it is good and true, I have nothing against it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Really. Otherwise, why would Christians be following the Bible today? Think about it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is good and true, just like the Gospel message.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
The idea that his message is a universal message is different than the claim, which you are making, that his message does not apply to the disciples whom Jesus is directly speaking to in the story.
You have crossed the line into propaganda and then doubled down. It’s unfortunate.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say that his message does not apply to the disciples whom Jesus is directly speaking to in the story.
In post #229 I said "Jesus was not 'only' addressing His disciples," meaning He was speaking to the disciples but He was also speaking to others who would be reading the verses in the future. If the Gospel message applied only to the disciples, it would not be universal.
You have crossed the line into illogical thinking if you think the verses which refer to the end times apply to the disciples.
The verses all fit together hand in glove, when you understand what they mean.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
How can you say his message to send a man 1800 years later applied to the disciples? Are you saying Jesus thought his disciples would still be alive in the 1800’s?
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Also, I’m curious if this is a common belief taught in Baha’i or is it a personal one?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that Jesus was speaking to the disciples, but He was also speaking for others who would be reading the verses in the future, when the Comforter/Spirit of truth comes.
John 16:7-11 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
One of the various proofs that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is a Baha'i belief, not my personal belief.
After Jesus ascended, the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) returned in Baha'u'llah, just as Jesus promised it would.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246
“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18
“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19
“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85
“Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 91
“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Thanks for answering my question.
The spirit of the Son always exists in every soul:
“On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” (John 14:20).
Did Baha’u”llah teach that the spirit of the Son only exists within him? It exists within you too.