Salvation in Christianity

[Treasure Hunter]

The many who identify with salvation, call themselves saved, and hold tightly to their salvation can never be saved.
The one who identifies with salvation but then lets go of his salvation in trust will be saved.

We must hold paradox in order to transcend dilemma.

I just gave the more complex breakdown of how to move forward in the story. Here is the simpler breakdown: “Am I currently in the Kingdom? No. Ok, then I will make sure that I let go of this counterfeit kingdom.”

The story of the Kingdom is both more complex and simpler than how Christendom views it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, we cannot understand God. We also cannot understand what heaven (the spiritual world) will be like because it is so different from this world, and that is why Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Efendi have not tried to explain it to us. Why try to explain something we cannot understand?
Another reason we are not told is because if we knew what heaven was like we would no longer want to remain on earth.

Again, Allah and his manifestation hiding the truth. Perhaps they thought that Bahais do not have enough intelligence to understand things. But every person has a different level of intelligence. They could have given a teeny-weeny hint. Or perhaps they themselves knew nothing about it and were repeating what other religions said.

 

[1213]

How about you, do you think the Genesis stories are literally true?

I believe they are true in the way Bible explains them.

 

[1213]

All reading requires interpretation to assign a meaning since no book interprets itself.
If the Bible explained what it means, why do Christians disagree about what it means?

By what I see, it is because some people love their own doctrines more than truth, and therefore want to twist the Bible to fit in to their ideas.

I think all books explain what they mean. It is not necessary to interpret. Or, perhaps you could show one example that you think needs to be interpreted and is not explained in the Bible?

 

[F1fan]

I believe they are true in the way Bible explains them.

That sounds like you interpret them literally. The thing is the Bible doesn't tell anyone to interpret these stories literally, so who told you to do it? Even Jews don't interpret Genesis literally and it's their book, so again, who told you to interpret Genesis literally?

By what I see, it is because some people love their own doctrines more than truth, and therefore want to twist the Bible to fit in to their ideas.

Whose doctrine are you following that tells you to interpret Genesis literally?

I think all books explain what they mean. It is not necessary to interpret. Or, perhaps you could show one example that you think needs to be interpreted and is not explained in the Bible?

You think? So you could be mistaken. Show us where the Bible says to interpret all the stories literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, Allah and his manifestation hiding the truth. Perhaps they thought that Bahais do not have enough intelligence to understand things. But every person has a different levels of intelligence. They could have given a teeny-weeny hint. Or perhaps they themselves knew nothing about it and were repeating what other religions said.

I agree with you that we should have been told more about the afterlife, especially given what we are made to endure in THIS life.

Aside from the fact that the spiritual world would be difficult to describe, given how different it is from this life, below is another reason we are not told more about the afterlife. I know that quote below is true because I wish for death often, even with the little that I know about the afterlife.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

 

[Trailblazer]

By what I see, it is because some people love their own doctrines more than truth, and therefore want to twist the Bible to fit in to their ideas.

I think all books explain what they mean. It is not necessary to interpret. Or, perhaps you could show one example that you think needs to be interpreted and is not explained in the Bible?

As I said before, everything we read requires interpretation, which is assigning a meaning to what we read. The Bible is no exception.
There would be no need for Bible commentaries if the Bible itself explained what it means, but there are many Bible commentaries online.

Below are some verses. You can tell me what you think they mean and I will tell you what I think they mean, and I can assure you we will not agree.
Who is to say which one of us is actually correct?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

“Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.”

What anyone says, Bahaollah included, can be accepted only when the evidence is available/produced. Assertions are for asses, and we are not that. Where is the evidence?
People mouth all sort of garbage and other people make it mean whatever they want.

 

[joelr]

Quite right .. well done Sherlock

I mean the specific type of salvation, personal salvation for an individual for getting a good afterlife. Where did that develop?

 

[joelr]

how do you define Salvation ?

I mean the Hellenistic salvation that all mystery religions used, as well as Christianity.

Agricultural salvation cults were retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in the afterlife in Greek religions which spread around the Mediterranean and became Mystery religions. They also had savior deities who were sons or daughters of a supreme God.

 

[1213]

Below are some verses. You can tell me what you think they mean and I will tell you what I think they mean, and I can assure you we will not agree.
Who is to say which one of us is actually correct?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I think that means what it says. I have nothing to add into that. So, please tell, what do you think it means, if not what it says?

 

[1213]

That sounds like you interpret them literally. The thing is the Bible doesn't tell anyone to interpret these stories literally, so who told you to do it? Even Jews don't interpret Genesis literally and it's their book, so again, who told you to interpret Genesis literally?

When in Bible something is not meant literally, it is shown in the text, or its correct symbolic meaning is given in the text. Bible tells God created as told in the Bible and it doesn't say it was some kind of allegory or symbolism.

Do you know why Jews don't take Genesis literally? What do they think it then means?

Whose doctrine are you following that tells you to interpret Genesis literally?

Bible doesn't give any reason for Genesis to not be taken literally as it is written. Therefore I have no reason to follow someone's doctrine to not take it literally.

 

[cataway]

I mean the Hellenistic salvation that all mystery religions used, as well as Christianity.

Agricultural salvation cults were retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in the afterlife in Greek religions which spread around the Mediterranean and became Mystery religions. They also had savior deities who were sons or daughters of a supreme God.

oh, so not really a saving, prolonging life as in fore ever

 

[joelr]

oh, so not really a saving, prolonging life as in fore ever

Forever in an afterlife I guess.

 

[Brian2]

thats a nice thought , however

Romans 6:7​

"For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin."



any sin is not held against you when you have died. now if you could just find a way to live again. there is a clue in

John 3:16​

Jesus comes back and resurrects everyone, beginning with those who are in Christ who have passed over the judgement for eternal life because they already have that.
Jesus judges everyone else for what they have done in their life. (Matt 25:31-45)

 

[F1fan]

When in Bible something is not meant literally, it is shown in the text, or its correct symbolic meaning is given in the text.

Really? Show us some examples.

Bible tells God created as told in the Bible and it doesn't say it was some kind of allegory or symbolism.

So do you interpret the Adam and Eve story literally or symbolically?

Do you know why Jews don't take Genesis literally?

Because they use intelligence when they interpret the stories. They accept science as a reliable explanation of nature, and they interpret the OT with that approach.

What do they think it then means?

You can ask Jews about their interpretations of the various myths and allegories. I find it shallow and disrespectful when Christians and Muslims interpret the OT literally, and rejects how Jews understand it.

Bible doesn't give any reason for Genesis to not be taken literally as it is written. Therefore I have no reason to follow someone's doctrine to not take it literally.

There is observations and science. Genetics show that the Adam and Eve myth is not possible. Observations and testing shows the Noah Flood never happened. It's tpyical of creationists to ignore facts and science, and this puts their credibility in the toilet. Christians in the 21st century who reject facts and science so they can interpret the Bible a certain way are following corrupt parties, like Ansers in Genesis, and the Discovery Institute. Neither of these groups do science. They rent office space and produce fraudulent materials for guilible Christians who want to believe in a bad set of concepts.

 

[1213]

Really? Show us some examples.

He spoke to them many things in parables, saying...
Matt. 13:3

So do you interpret the Adam and Eve story literally or symbolically?

Bible doesn't give any reason to think it was something else than literal. God created all things as said in the scriptures. But, obviously, what it means in practice is not known very accurately, because Bible doesn't give much details of it.

You can ask Jews about their interpretations of the various myths and allegories. I find it shallow and disrespectful when Christians and Muslims interpret the OT literally, and rejects how Jews understand it.

I need good reason before I can accept something is not meant literally.

There is observations and science. Genetics show that the Adam and Eve myth is not possible.

I disagree with that.

Observations and testing shows the Noah Flood never happened.

There is no real observation that shows it didn't happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that means what it says. I have nothing to add into that. So, please tell, what do you think it means, if not what it says?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Those verses are subject to more than one interpretation. For one thing, who do you believe the Spirit of truth is? I do not believe that it is the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost. I believe that the Spirit of truth was a title for the man who brought the Holy Spirit, the man who brought the many things that Jesus said we could not bear back when He walked the earth. That man also told us of things to come and glorified Jesus.
Referring to Jesus, He wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[1213]

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Those verses are subject to more than one interpretation. For one thing, who do you believe the Spirit of truth is? I do not believe that it is the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost. I believe that the Spirit of truth was a title for the man who brought the Holy Spirit, the man who brought the many things that Jesus said we could not bear back when He walked the earth.

Reason why I don't believe Holy Spirit is a man is for example because it is something that comes into the people.

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You will be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth.”
Act 1:8

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?”
Luke 11:13

 

[Brian2]

Reason why I don't believe Holy Spirit is a man is for example because it is something that comes into the people.

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You will be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth.”
Act 1:8

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?”
Luke 11:13

And the Spirit of Truth also is not a man and was promised to the disciples of 2000 years ago. The Spirit of Truth is the Helper/Paraclete/Comforter/Holy Spirit that Jesus promised His disciples.
No doubt you know all this.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.