Salvation in Christianity

[Treasure Hunter]

You're overlooking the implication of being saved - a guarantee has been issued.
Is a fiancé not married? She is betrothed with an oath and ring, and therefore cannot behave in an unmarried fashion from the time that she became engaged.

Unless you are speaking of the doctrine of 'once saved, always saved', of which I don't believe that you are. But, on that note, yes, the engaged person can ultimately never become married for a plethora of different reasons. So, equally, I believe that a Christian can lose their salvation by renouncing their faith and Christ.

But, again, I don't believe that this is your question. You are asking can one either be or belong to something if they are not there yet. God has instituted a means towards salvation that requires faith that on Judgement Day, those who have accepted Christ as their lord and saviour will enter into the Kingdom of God. And, that those who don't, will not.

Faith is the requirement that God demands, whereas you are seeking tangible proof. A Christian believes that Christ will return to gather the elect (those who have repented of their sins in the name of Jesus Christ), to bring them into his kingdom. Life must go on in order to bring as many as possible into the faith, and therefore the Kingdom has not been inaugurated yet. This is the delay that appears to confound you.

I’m affirming the terms of the covenant as directly and explicitly stated by the Father through the Son.
“What belongs to the father belongs to the son.”
“Ask anything in my name, and it shall be granted to you.”
“The Kingdom is at hand.”
“And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.”

I’m not asking if the delay can be rationalized. I already know that it is rationalized. I’m saying that the delay is not “business as usual”. It is either a violation of the covenant or something else is wrong. Either way, there is an injustice happening. That is what I’m trying to get Christians to wake up to and see.

I would caution Christians against finding strength in numbers or comfort in consensus. That is the wide path. Find the narrow path of truth.

I get that confidence and trust are part of faith but so is acknowledgement of injustice.

 

[DNB]

I’m affirming the terms of the covenant as directly and explicitly stated by the Father through the Son.
“What belongs to the father belongs to the son.”
“Ask anything in my name, and it shall be granted to you.”
“The Kingdom is at hand.”
“And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.”

I’m not asking if the delay can be rationalized. I already know that it is rationalized. I’m saying that the delay is not “business as usual”. It is either a violation of the covenant or something else is wrong. Either way, there is an injustice happening. That is what I’m trying to get Christians to wake up to and see.

I would caution Christians against finding strength in numbers or comfort in consensus. That is the wide path. Find the narrow path of truth.

I get that confidence and trust are part of faith but so is acknowledgement of injustice.

You cannot isolate a passage, and then attempt to either define or discredit a doctrinal principle.
Jesus has said enough times that the promise shall be fulfilled on his return - it is a future event.
His language can speak in an imminent fashion, because it is the manner that one conveys inevitability.
If you would harmonize the entirety of the Gospels, you would not perceive a contradiction in the words of Jesus and current events.

It is true, that Jesus often speaks in idealisms and austerity. But, again, the Bible as a whole teaches the reader that hyperbole is prevalent, and various literary conventions are often employed. All of this impresses upon the exegete to be restrained in drawing conclusions that radically conflict with other areas of the Bible.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Those beliefs border on obsession, along with the obsession with demons and Satan. They obsess over being saved, or rather, they take pride in being saved. Just live in a way that ensures a good afterlife instead of focusing on the afterlife.

I know Christians who are so obsessed with demons and Satan that they appear to expect demons or the devil himself to leap out of dark corners or grab them and drag them under their bed at night. And I know Christians who are rather arrogant about "being saved" and believing that they have eternal life while those they know, especially those they consider enemies, who aren't saved will be tortured in hell and suffer for all eternity, or so they believe.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

You cannot isolate a passage, and then attempt to either define or discredit a doctrinal principle.
Jesus has said enough times that the promise shall be fulfilled on his return - it is a future event.
His language can speak in an imminent fashion, because it is the manner that one conveys inevitability.
If you would harmonize the entirety of the Gospels, you would not perceive a contradiction in the words of Jesus and current events.

It is true, that Jesus often speaks in idealisms and austerity. But, again, the Bible as a whole teaches the reader that hyperbole is prevalent, and various literary conventions are often employed. All of this impresses upon the exegete to be restrained in drawing conclusions that radically conflict with other areas of the Bible.

I agree that it is a future event. It is a story that unfolds. However, identifying the injustice of the delay is a necessary part of what moves the story forward.

Christians keep waiting and waiting, and then they die. Then, the next generation repeats the cycle. This has been going on for 2,000 years.

 

[Jimmy]

Earth is the kingdom of heaven. We all will be saved.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Earth is the kingdom of heaven. We all will be saved.

No disrespect is intended to your religious convictions, but what about people like me who have absolutely no desire to receive salvation from your God?

 

[Jimmy]

No disrespect is intended to your religious convictions, but what about people like me who have absolutely no desire to receive salvation from your God?

U don’t have to

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

U don’t have to

Alright then. I suppose I misunderstood you when you said, "We all will be saved."

 

[Jimmy]

Alright then. I suppose I misunderstood you when you said, "We all will be saved."

I’m not Christian but I have my own ideas about being saved. I believe people like you who don’t subscribe will be saved. By saved I mean get to live again after all things end

 

[Trailblazer]

Earth is the kingdom of heaven. We all will be saved.

Not according to Christianity.

I just returned from a GriefShare group at a local church. This week's session was on Heaven. It was made perfectly clear that "the only way to spend eternity in is to believe in Jesus Christ." That is a direct quote from the video about heaven.

I do not believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven but I was not about to say that in the group, out of respect to the Christians who sponsor that group.

 

[Jimmy]

Not according to Christianity.

I just returned from a GriefShare group at a local church. This week's session was on Heaven. It was made perfectly clear that "the only way to spend eternity in is to believe in Jesus Christ." That is a direct quote from the video about heaven.

I do not believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven but I was not about to say that in the group, out of respect to the Christians who sponsor that group.

My version of Jesus thinks that he said u can only get to dad through me cuz he knew something. The something that made him special. But I think Jesus also knew everyone wouldn't figure out who he really was and he was cool with it. He knew even if they didn't know who Jesus was they could still have a good relationship with god

 

[Trailblazer]

My version of Jesus thinks that he said u can only get to dad through me cuz he knew something. The something that made him special. But I think Jesus also knew everyone wouldn't figure out who he really was and he was cool with it. He knew even if they didn't know who Jesus was they could still have a good relationship with god

Thanks for explaining. That version is the same as my version.

 

[Trailblazer]

Based on my experience as a psychic medium assisting earthbound spirits to cross over, I believe that one of the main reasons some spirits are unaware they are dead is because they died unexpectedly or died a traumatic death and are in a state of confusion. They are disoriented, and it may take some time for them to realize they are dead, or they may have to be told by a medium.

Below are some excerpts from the book entitled Private Dowding, a rendition of a soldier killed in battle, who suddenly realized he was dead.

"Where is my body? Surely I am not dead!' In my own case, I knew nothing more than I have already related, at the time. When I found that my two pals could carry my body without my help, I dropped behind. I just followed, in a curiously humble way. Humble? Yes, because I seemed so useless. We met a stretcher party. My body was hoisted on to the stretcher. I wondered when I should get back into it again.” Private Dowding, p. 15-16

“You see, I was so little 'dead' that I imagined I was still physically alive. Think of it a moment before we pass on. I had been struck by a shell splinter. There was no pain. The life was knocked out of my body; again, I say, there was no pain. Then I found that the whole of myself--all, that is, that thinks and sees and feels and knows--was still alive and conscious! I had begun a new chapter of life. I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe.” Private Dowding, p. 16

“How does it feel to be 'dead'? One can't explain, because there's nothing in it! I simply felt free and light. My being seemed to have expanded. These are mere words. I can only tell you just this: that death is nothing unseemly or shocking. So simple is the 'passing along' experience that it beggars description. Others may have other experiences to relate of a more complex nature. I don't know. . . .

When I lived in a physical body I never thought much about it. My health was fair. I knew very little about physiology. Now that I am living under other conditions I remain incurious as to that through which I express myself. By this I mean that I am still evidently in a body of some sort, but 'l' can tell you very little about it. It has no interest for me. It is convenient, does not ache or tire, seems similar in formation to my old body. There is a subtle difference, but I cannot attempt analysis.” Private Dowding, p. 17

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Below are some excerpts from the book entitled Private Dowding, a rendition of a soldier killed in battle, who suddenly realized he was dead.

"Where is my body? Surely I am not dead!' In my own case, I knew nothing more than I have already related, at the time. When I found that my two pals could carry my body without my help, I dropped behind. I just followed, in a curiously humble way. Humble? Yes, because I seemed so useless. We met a stretcher party. My body was hoisted on to the stretcher. I wondered when I should get back into it again.” Private Dowding, p. 15-16

“You see, I was so little 'dead' that I imagined I was still physically alive. Think of it a moment before we pass on. I had been struck by a shell splinter. There was no pain. The life was knocked out of my body; again, I say, there was no pain. Then I found that the whole of myself--all, that is, that thinks and sees and feels and knows--was still alive and conscious! I had begun a new chapter of life. I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe.” Private Dowding, p. 16

“How does it feel to be 'dead'? One can't explain, because there's nothing in it! I simply felt free and light. My being seemed to have expanded. These are mere words. I can only tell you just this: that death is nothing unseemly or shocking. So simple is the 'passing along' experience that it beggars description. Others may have other experiences to relate of a more complex nature. I don't know. . . .

When I lived in a physical body I never thought much about it. My health was fair. I knew very little about physiology. Now that I am living under other conditions I remain incurious as to that through which I express myself. By this I mean that I am still evidently in a body of some sort, but 'l' can tell you very little about it. It has no interest for me. It is convenient, does not ache or tire, seems similar in formation to my old body. There is a subtle difference, but I cannot attempt analysis.” Private Dowding, p. 17

Thank you for posting these quotes, Trailblazer. I appreciate it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's not what I said. I said maybe Abdu'l-Baha didn't explain it because 'we' could not understand it, meaning none of us could.
Since I cannot understand it that means I do not KNOW, so I cannot explain it to you.

What can we understand? We cannot understand Allah, we cannot understand heaven. The manifestation, his son and his great grandson cannot explain it to us. Then why at all Allah sends messengers and manifestations? What good are they for?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for posting these quotes, Trailblazer. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. I love that little book and I have read it over and over again. It gives me more hope than any scriptures.
I hope it will give other people who read it hope as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

What can we understand? We cannot understand Allah, we cannot understand heaven. The manifestation, his son and his great grandson cannot explain it to us. Then why at all Allah sends messengers and manifestations? What good are they for?

I appreciate your questions. The answers are in the passages below.

No, we cannot understand God. We also cannot understand what heaven (the spiritual world) will be like because it is so different from this world, and that is why Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Efendi have not tried to explain it to us. Why try to explain something we cannot understand?

Another reason we are not told is because if we knew what heaven was like we would no longer want to remain on earth.

“If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings, p. 157

 

[DNB]

Y

I agree that it is a future event. It is a story that unfolds. However, identifying the injustice of the delay is a necessary part of what moves the story forward.

Christians keep waiting and waiting, and then they die. Then, the next generation repeats the cycle. This has been going on for 2,000 years.

Yes, but as it is written, when Christ returns the dead will rise first, and then those who are alive in Christ.
So, sorry, I don't get your point. The delay is for the unsaved, for the saved rest assured according to the promise.
And, as one who believes that, as it stands now, I will be saved on the final day, I'm glad that more time is given for the lost. Even despite this cesspool that we live in, even where I stand to lose my faith if God ever decides to put me to the test enough.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Y

Yes, but as it is written, when Christ returns the dead will rise first, and then those who are alive in Christ.
So, sorry, I don't get your point. The delay is for the unsaved, for the saved rest assured according to the promise.
And, as one who believes that, as it stands now, I will be saved on the final day, I'm glad that more time is given for the lost. Even despite this cesspool that we live in, even where I stand to lose my faith if God ever decides to put me to the test enough.

My friend, don’t you understand that your actions effect the story? Christendom seems to give little consideration to this truth, as if they are simply observing from the sideline.

You are the center-point of the story. How can you speak of Christ’s return when you are grasping his presence with you so tightly? If you don’t let him go — which you must do in order for him to prepare the way for you and return — since you associate holding his presence with salvation, how is the story supposed to unfold?

This isn’t personal to you. It’s the dilemma of Christendom - to hold Christ hostage for the emotional security of salvation while still somehow expecting the story to proceed. Christ says that he won’t leave us as orphans, but is that not irrelevant if we never allow ourselves to become orphans in the first place?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

My friend, don’t you understand that your actions effect the story? Christendom seems to give little consideration to this truth, as if they are simply observing from the sideline.

You are the center-point of the story. How can you speak of Christ’s return when you are grasping his presence with you so tightly? If you don’t let him go — which you must do in order for him to prepare the way for you and return — since you associate holding his presence with salvation, how is the story supposed to unfold?

This isn’t personal to you. It’s the dilemma of Christendom - to hold Christ hostage for the emotional security of salvation while still somehow expecting the story to proceed. Christ says that he won’t leave us as orphans, but is that not irrelevant if we never allow ourselves to become orphans in the first place?

The many who identify with salvation, call themselves saved, and hold tightly to their salvation can never be saved.
The one who identifies with salvation but then lets go of his salvation in trust will be saved.

We must hold paradox in order to transcend dilemma.