Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[no-body]

Its just what I believe about God and salvation. I feel it applies well to a sinner such as myself. I am only sharing my belief, as I stated in the beginning post. I want people to be sure I am not trying to force my beliefs or trying to apply them to everyone else, I'm only stating them. The story is just to illustrate one example of why Christians such as myself (not all) believe salvation is a free gift, and that, to me, is a good thing.

Fine, but even sticking to your parameters such a God sounds like a tyrannical demon. I am expected to unquestionable accept the rules behind such a gift? If I can't be made to understand the rules then there is no free will, really. Unless logic and intelligence are gifts from the devil, in which case I will gladly burn with the brave Lucifer rather than worship an evil being that sacrifices himself to himself for certain power and obedience.

 

[Falvlun]

not either or, I believe that it takes both. Faith and works are inseparably connected, you cannot have one without the other.

our actions are born of faith - we will not try a recipe out if we do not first have faith that it might taste good....
through faith our actions are magnified - if we never had any faith in the recipe, we would have never tried it out, we would have to learn how to cook on our own and would never come to the recipe (created through generations) in our lifetime. ... "if I have seen farther than others it is because we have stood on the shoulders of Giants" - Issac Newton... have to have enough faith to stand on the shoulders of Giants in order to see farther...

imagine living without faith - trying to invent the wheel on our own, living like cave-men refusing to read books etc. etc. .. when we can trust sources outside of ourself, and act on knowledge that was gained by others - this is the fastest way to progress. It takes both faith/trust in what we read, and then work - actions which test the info and verify/nullify it.

That sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation, actually. We need faith in order to act, and if we then don't act, there was not much point to the faith.

 

[idea]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation, actually. We need faith in order to act, and if we then don't act, there was not much point to the faith.

exactly

if you have faith that a car is coming, but then you don't get out of the street... did you really have faith that a car was coming? ... knowledge of the car is a gift, our life is a gift, and our ability to act is also gift.

(New Testament | James 2:18 - 26)
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[earlwooters]

Salvation from what?

 

[javajo]

I will try to be as crystal clear as I can in sharing what I believe, again emphasizing that I am simply sharing what I believe, not asking anyone to believe it: The Bible says we are in a dire predicament and many of us don't even know it. We were all born with a sinful nature we inherited from our parents and as a result we all have sinned. The penalty for sin is death. This means that we will die physically, are dead spiritually toward God, and will die the second death which is eternal separation from God and his love. But God loves us and paid the penalty by sending his Son, actually God in the flesh, to die, thus paying the penalty. When a person trusts in Jesus, they trust that Jesus did pay for their sins and Jesus gives them eternal life and they are completely saved forever.

Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

We don't earn eternal life, Jesus gives it to us. And from that moment on we have eternal life that nobody and nothing can ever take away. We have the life and we have the eternal because Jesus gave it to us. Jesus did all the work. He paid for all our sins (all means all) on the cross. He also gives us his righteousness in place of our own since all our works of righteousness for salvation are as filthy rags to a holy God.

As far as 'works' goes. There is confusion about that among people, too. Let me quote some verses and then try to explain:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-10

Note here, we are saved through faith, that is a gift from God, not by works, so no one can boast. We are saved, and good works can and should follow as a result, not as part of getting or keeping saved. I will say, everyone who is saved has the Holy Spirit living in them and they will produce fruit of some sort whether it is very noticeable to others or not, as a result of salvation and the work of God in their life as they grow in his grace.

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. Titus 3:4-8

This, too, says we were not saved by the righteous things we did, but by his mercy and grace. Then it says those who have trusted in God should do what is good because its excellent and profitable for all. First we are freely saved, good works may follow as we yield to the Holy Spirit and grow in our Christian walk.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

Here again works cannot save, but faith in Christ. What James says is that before men, to be justified in the sight of men, men need to see some fruit if you say you have trusted in Christ, not that the works save you, but they are evidence to men that you truly have trusted Christ and so Christ is beginning a new work in your life.

Just know, and again this if just my beliefs, we are freely saved, works can and should be a result.

 

[waitasec]

If someone gives someone a gift, they have to accept the gift.

no they don't...they have a choice.

If someone is drowning in the middle of the ocean and I give them a life preserver, they must trust that it will save them and accept it and put it on. I believe it is the same with Jesus, we have to stop relying on our own good works and our own goodness or anything we do and rely on him to save us and put our trust completely in him and his finished work on the cross. That's what I believe anyway.

if i tossed someone in the ocean who didn't know how to swim and then give them a life preserver i have set up a situation where the one drowning has no choice to reject my gift...
which is what i think to be the christian dilemma.

most religions teach a salvation earned by what WE do

christianity is no different. who decides to choose...?

I believe good works have nothing to do with salvation. We are saved by faith, by trusting in Christ that he paid for our sins by dying on the cross.

trusting god is doing something good...something you decided to do. so yes you saved yourself because of the choice you made to believe.

 

[Falvlun]

trusting god is doing something good...something you decided to do. so yes you saved yourself because of the choice you made to believe.

Many atheists believe that you cannot choose what you believe. It is something that just happens to you. So, under that viewpoint, you really aren't doing anything.

Likewise, some Christians believe in predestination-- the concept that God has ordained who will be saved and who won't-- and thus the choice was not yours, but God's, and he makes it so. (Which I think is a pretty horrific belief, but that is beside the point.)

Though, yes, you do have a point. If God allows us to freely choose to accept Jesus, and if we must accept Jesus' salvation in order to be saved, then that does mean we need to do something to be saved.

 

[waitasec]

Many atheists believe that you cannot choose what you believe. It is something that just happens to you. So, under that viewpoint, you really aren't doing anything.

i see what you mean. i was talking from an indoctrinated POV...a belief that is learned, not an inherent instinct like fight or flight.

 

[Falvlun]

i see what you mean. i was talking from an indoctrinated POV...a belief that is learned, not an inherent instinct like fight or flight.

I hear ya. I've always had a bit of a problem with the idea that one can't choose beliefs, but then again, I believe in free will. Either way, our beliefs are obviously very heavily influenced by our environment.

Which is why it's not fair that belief (in a specific story) should be the criteria for salvation.

 

[javajo]

no they don't...they have a choice.

Right, they do have a choice.

if i tossed someone in the ocean who didn't know how to swim and then give them a life preserver i have set up a situation where the one drowning has no choice to reject my gift...

I don't pretend to know why we are in the situation we are in, or if God could have done it any other way. I do believe scripture says we are in the situation and God in his love provided a way out if we only trust him.

trusting god is doing something good...something you decided to do. so yes you saved yourself because of the choice you made to believe.

I believe if we die and end up eternally separated from God and pay for our own sins then that is doing it yourself. Or if we work real hard to try to earn salvation all our life ignoring the only way God provided and ending up lost, that is doing it ourself. If we trust Christ to have paid the penalty then we let him do the saving and we just enjoy the ride. That is just what I believe.

Since we use the ocean analogy, I believe if one is in the middle of the ocean and going to drown, Jesus would be the guy in the boat who offers assistance. Sure we can say no and take our chances, but lets say we decide to trust this guy and accept his offer of help. We do nothing but float there while he lifts us up into the boat, dries us off, and takes us to within 100 miles of shore and throws us back out and says we got to do the rest ourselves. No just kidding. He takes us all the way safely to the shore and buys us a nice dinner. That's how I look at it, and again its only my belief.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Something just occurred to me:


This line of reasoning is irrational. Is your God irrational?

(only as irrational as yours)

 

[Otherright]

Right, they do have a choice.

I don't pretend to know why we are in the situation we are in, or if God could have done it any other way. I do believe scripture says we are in the situation and God in his love provided a way out if we only trust him.
I believe if we die and end up eternally separated from God and pay for our own sins then that is doing it yourself. Or if we work real hard to try to earn salvation all our life ignoring the only way God provided and ending up lost, that is doing it ourself. If we trust Christ to have paid the penalty then we let him do the saving and we just enjoy the ride. That is just what I believe.

Since we use the ocean analogy, I believe if one is in the middle of the ocean and going to drown, Jesus would be the guy in the boat who offers assistance. Sure we can say no and take our chances, but lets say we decide to trust this guy and accept his offer of help. We do nothing but float there while he lifts us up into the boat, dries us off, and takes us to within 100 miles of shore and throws us back out and says we got to do the rest ourselves. No just kidding. He takes us all the way safely to the shore and buys us a nice dinner. That's how I look at it, and again its only my belief.

Doesn't it seem counter-intuitive that you spend 60, 70, maybe 80 years here doing whatever, and then spend untold eternity judged for the events of 60 years.

 

[Adonis65]

Not saying that.

So you're saying the Holy spirit dwells in unclean places?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Doesn't it seem counter-intuitive that you spend 60, 70, maybe 80 years here doing whatever, and then spend untold eternity judged for the events of 60 years.

In some cases, people can commit enough evil to cover millions of lifetimes.

 

[javajo]

Which is why it's not fair that belief (in a specific story) should be the criteria for salvation.

I would say, belief in a specific person and the work he did on the cross to pay a debt we could not pay and a debt he didn't owe. But that's just my belief. I believe everyone who is concerned with eternal things and the things of God and whatnot, should consider whether or not it might be true. I'm not saying it IS true, although I believe it to be true, but to the thorough theologian or one who is trying to be religiously educated, it seems worthy of great study. Especially if the eternal ramifications on the soul, i.e. being separated from God and love and all that is good forever, etc. could even remotely be true, I would want to be quite certain about the whole matter. But that's just me. I don't understand everything about why the Bible paints such a well, scary picture of it, and why God made the plan of salvation the way he did. I think maybe he made it free so anyone could have it, and that seems pretty wise. And there are the verses about him being fair and just. Anyway, there are a lot of thing I don't mind getting wrong, but my eternal destiny, if there be such a thing, I do not want to get wrong. And that's just me. Just my own beliefs. That's all.

 

[javajo]

So you're saying the Holy spirit dwells in unclean places?

Not saying that. I believe, and all the following is only my belief, once someone has trusted Christ, Christ gives them his righteousness in place of their own 'filthy rags' righteousness so when God looks at us, he sees Christ's righteousness and Christ's blood having washed away-paid for all our sins, and not as you say 'an unclean place'. I am saying that after a person trusts Christ they don't suddenly, completely and forever stop sinning, try as they might. For we still have a sinful nature we battle and as long as we live in this corrupt and vile body of death, we will still struggle with sin. This is part of growing 'in grace', that is we are saved forevermore, yet we now begin the growth. We are babes in Christ growing to maturity. Some grow more and faster than others but we all grow even if it is not super obvious to others. A believer will grow. A believer will sin. We have power to overcome sin, but we will sin to some degree nonetheless. We should try not to sin of course and we will be much happier. Some of us find that out the hard way. One day soon our redemption will be complete when our bodies are transformed (I believe at the Rapture 1 Thess. 4, 1 Cor. 15) and then we will be completely sinless and immortal and glorified and all that good stuff. Again, that's just my belief.

 

[Falvlun]

I would say, belief in a specific person and the work he did on the cross to pay a debt we could not pay and a debt he didn't owe. But that's just my belief. I believe everyone who is concerned with eternal things and the things of God and whatnot, should consider whether or not it might be true. I'm not saying it IS true, although I believe it to be true, but to the thorough theologian or one who is trying to be religiously educated, it seems worthy of great study. Especially if the eternal ramifications on the soul, i.e. being separated from God and love and all that is good forever, etc. could even remotely be true, I would want to be quite certain about the whole matter. But that's just me. I don't understand everything about why the Bible paints such a well, scary picture of it, and why God made the plan of salvation the way he did. I think maybe he made it free so anyone could have it, and that seems pretty wise. And there are the verses about him being fair and just. Anyway, there are a lot of thing I don't mind getting wrong, but my eternal destiny, if there be such a thing, I do not want to get wrong. And that's just me. Just my own beliefs. That's all.

I know what you believe, javajo. May I ask how you came by these beliefs? Were you raised in a Christian family? Are you from/ do you live in a country in which Christianity is the dominant religion? Odds are, one or both these things are true.

Now, imagine that you were born in Pakistan. You would probably have been raised a Muslim in a Muslim-dominated culture. While you may have the chance to hear the Gospel, it would be much harder for you to accept it than it would be for someone who was born in the United States of a family who takes him to church every Sunday. How is that fair, that some people get a better chance of accepting the gift of salvation than others?

Consider it another way: What if Islam is the true path to salvation? Afterall, you stated above that your eternal destiny is something you don't want to get wrong. Surely you have considered the idea that some other plan of salvation may be the true path, and yet you have rejected those paths in favor of Christianity. Would you not feel like you had been cheated out of eternal life if Islam really was the true path? You have tried to worship and obey God with an honest and open heart, and yet you chose the wrong religion. Why didn't you choose Islam? Why do the majority of people in the Middle East choose Islam? If Islam is the true path to salvation, would you not think that those born in the Middle East have a leg up on picking the right religion?

Birthplace and subsequent environment is such a strong factor in predicting which religion a person will choose to follow. What an arbitrary way to be saved!

 

[waitasec]

I believe if we die and end up eternally separated from God and pay for our own sins then that is doing it yourself. Or if we work real hard to try to earn salvation all our life ignoring the only way God provided and ending up lost, that is doing it ourself. If we trust Christ to have paid the penalty then we let him do the saving and we just enjoy the ride. That is just what I believe.

i think when one has regret is when one pays for their short comings...
living true to ones truth/integrity is all we can do in order to be at peace with ones self.

Since we use the ocean analogy, I believe if one is in the middle of the ocean and going to drown, Jesus would be the guy in the boat who offers assistance. Sure we can say no and take our chances, but lets say we decide to trust this guy and accept his offer of help. We do nothing but float there while he lifts us up into the boat, dries us off, and takes us to within 100 miles of shore and throws us back out and says we got to do the rest ourselves. No just kidding. He takes us all the way safely to the shore and buys us a nice dinner. That's how I look at it, and again its only my belief.

let me ask you this, i am assuming the ocean represent life
and jesus is the captain of the boat that offers salvation.
if this is so, then why did jesus put us in treacherous waters knowing of our limited abilities in the 1st place? from what i gather (from the bible) we are all sinners, meaning we want to do things our way...it is our predisposition, the way we were created, for all have sinned and fall short...so i don't understand how you can see yourself in the middle of the ocean struggling to survive without realizing that god put you there in the first place....how did you get there?
by choice or were you created with limited abilities in an indifferent and harsh world?

can you, in practical terms explain what; we do nothing but float there , means?
i am assuming you are going to respond with 'faith'
but i understand faith as an adverb...faith describes an action, so really i don't see how floating there is being idle.

 

[logician]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9"

Saved from what?

 

[no-body]

Since we use the ocean analogy, I believe if one is in the middle of the ocean and going to drown, Jesus would be the guy in the boat who offers assistance. Sure we can say no and take our chances, but lets say we decide to trust this guy and accept his offer of help. We do nothing but float there while he lifts us up into the boat, dries us off, and takes us to within 100 miles of shore and throws us back out and says we got to do the rest ourselves. No just kidding. He takes us all the way safely to the shore and buys us a nice dinner. That's how I look at it, and again its only my belief.

From my POV God is the insane captain who kicked me into the ocean because my grandmother touched his steering wheel.