Salvation

[thedope]

More hodgepodge. . .the only living Word is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14).

Where does Jesus live?

I suppose you also think we have no written standard as the basis for the laws of this land. . .
that judges and courts are free to just "wing it," like you "wing it" with God's Word written.

I think they reflect the ignorant standards of men.

The standard is the Word written. . .written by men. . .not by angels. . .not by Jesus. . .but by men who were taught by Jesus, except for Luke who was taught by Paul, who was taught by Jesus.

Are you saying the old testament authors were taught by Jesus? Your statement as to authorship has no basis in fact. False on the face of it.

By this they shall know you are my disciples that you love one another. It is not my past that puts you at odds with me brother, it is yours.

If the measure you give is the measure you get, the only thing that can be absent any situation is what you have not given.

 

[smokydot]

Where does Jesus live?

So because Jesus, the living Word of God, is in those who believe in him, believers therefore do not need God's Word written
to know the truths Jesus taught, or to know his commands that inform their obedience, or to know the claims of Jesus regarding who he is. . .etc.?

That's an uninformed "faith" which has no knowledge of its object.
And with no knowlege of its object (Jesus), the beliefs of such a faith are just fantasy.

I think they reflect the ignorant standards of men.

And since your beliefs are not grounded in God's Word written, your beliefs likewise reflect the ignorant standards of the man who holds them.

Are you saying the old testament authors were taught by Jesus?

The context of this topic more than once has been stated as the NT.
Since post #225 our conversation has been about the NT.

Your statement as to authorship has no basis in fact. False on the face of it.

I didn't say "authorship." I said "written" (as in pen on paper).

You play loose with words. . .substituting the word "believe" for "trust,"
substituting the word "authorship" for "written."'
That's some slippery "interpretation."

Talk about "the ignorant standards of men". . .that applies more to you than it does to the laws of this great land.

By this they shall know you are my disciples that you love one another. It is not my past that puts you at odds with me brother, it is yours.

And what "past" would that be?

If the measure you give is the measure you get, the only thing that can be absent any situation is what you have not given.

Only if what is absent can be given, which is not necessarily the case with all things that are absent in a situation.

Your fantasies are showing.

 

[thedope]

So because Jesus, the living Word of God, is in those who believe in him, believers therefore do not need God's Word written
to know the truths Jesus taught, or to know his commands that inform their obedience, or to know the claims of Jesus regarding who he is. . .etc.?

That's an uninformed "faith" which has no knowledge of its object.
And with no knowlege of its object (Jesus), the beliefs of such a faith are just fantasy.

Written tradition begins as oral tradition. I.e. as you say except for luke who learned from Paul, etc...
There is no doubt that scripture is beneficial but it is nothing if not informed of holy spirit. If we have not love than all other gifts are like crashing symbols or clanging gongs.

And since your beliefs are not grounded in God's Word written, your beliefs likewise reflect the ignorant standards of the man who holds them.

I have supported my statements for your edification with those words attributed to the principals found in the bible.

The context of this topic more than once has been stated as the NT.

Newsflash, you cannot reserve the truth for certain situations and not others. The truth is true in all contexts. I am having a conversation with you.

I didn't say "authorship." I said "written" (as in pen on paper).

It is patently untrue that the author of every book in the new testament is contemporary to Jesus. If you want to make the point that you said written as in put pen to paper it is more so, many of the actual documents translated from are dated to the second century and later.

You play loose with words. . .substituting the word "believe" for "trust,"
substituting the word "authorship" for "written."'
That's some slippery "interpretation."

I am exact and lawful with my expressions. You are prejudiced in yours.

Talk about "the ignorant standards of men". . .you should apply that not only to the laws of this land, but also to yourself.

Jesus did not say convict and incarcerate, there is scriptural basis for what I say.
Rather judge not , love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

And what "past" would that be?

Learning

Only if what is absent can be given, which is not necessarily the case with all things that are absent in a situation.

Your fantasies are showing.

With god all things are possible. There are no idle thoughts and we are liable for every careless word we utter. Again you attempt to place walls around the truth so that the truth applies only to your perspective.

 

[smokydot]

With god all things are possible. There are no idle thoughts and we are liable for every careless word we utter. Again you attempt to place walls around the truth so that the truth applies only to your perspective.

Okay, let's talk about what fundamentally matters.

Is Jesus of Nazareth your Savior and Lord?

What does being your savior mean?

What does being your Lord mean?

Is there anything on one's part which conditions Jesus being one's savior, and without which he is not one's savior?
If so, what?

 

[thedope]

Not everyone who says to me lord lord shall enter but he who keeps my sayings.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Not everyone who says to me lord lord shall enter but he who keeps my sayings.

You need to say that three times in Latin for it to take effect.

 

[thedope]

You need to say that three times in Latin for it to take effect.

Is that anything like pillow talk?

 

[smokydot]

Not everyone who says to me lord lord shall enter but he who keeps my sayings.

But isn't that a works-based salvation?

Doesn't the NT say that we are saved by faith alone, and that works are simply evidence of that faith. . .but works do not save us?

 

[thedope]

But isn't that a works-based salvation?

Doesn't the NT say that we are saved by faith alone, and that works are simply evidence of that faith. . .but works do not save us?

It is the truth that sets us free, seek and find, ask and receive knock and it shall be opened, unless you become as little children, as you do unto the least you do also to me. Give to him who asks of you, seek not treasures on earth, love god with all your might, sin no more.
How would you characterize those instructions?

 

[smokydot]

It is the truth that sets us free, seek and find, ask and receive knock and it shall be opened, unless you become as little children, as you do unto the least you do also to me. Give to him who asks of you, seek not treasures on earth, love god with all your might, sin no more.
How would you characterize those instructions?

Not as the basis for salvation according to the NT.

It would be more honest if you acknowledged that you are not a Christian in the NT meaning of the word; i.e.,

1) faith in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and Lord,

2) who is one's savior only because of faith in him, not because of deeds (following his instructions),

3) which deeds (obedience) are simply the evidence of one's faith in him, which faith alone saves from God's wrath.

That explains your misunderstanding of the NT.

Now I understand your reference point.

 

[dawny0826]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

You "know" by faith. You believe and it will be. Pretty scary, huh?

 

[smokydot]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

See post #216 for the answer.

 

[thedope]

It would be more honest if you acknowledged that you are not a Christian in the NT meaning of the word; i.e.,

1) faith in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and Lord,

2) who is one's savior only because of faith in him, not because of deeds (following his instructions),

3) which deeds (obedience) are simply the evidence of one's faith in him, which faith alone saves from God's wrath.

That explains your misunderstanding of the NT.

Now I understand your reference point.

Seems as though we have apparently conflicting testimony. Did you just totally ignore all the articles that I pointed out? They are written in the bible as well as the ones you point to. The ones I pointed out were attributed to jesus and the words you point to are attributed to who?

 

[MW0082]

No. Just because you believe in a god, doesn't guarantee it. That is what faith is for.

Actually faith is so you won't ask questions and find out the truth...

 

[MW0082]

You "know" by faith. You believe and it will be. Pretty scary, huh?

Yes it is, becuase it only works for this ONE thing and we don't even know if it REALLY works....

 

[Zadok]

The ancient understanding of “salvation” correlates with the modern concept of salvage. When a shipwreck is salvaged the items of value or worth is separated from that which has no value. Some religions have some rather interesting notions of what has “value” and what is “worthless” to G-d and how such will be separated; despite the fact that G-d has been rather vocal (consistent in ancient scripture) about what he values and what is worthless to him.
There is an old Native American saying that we cannot know another until we have walked the paths they walk. I submit that the only way to be sure one is “saved”, salvaged or has salvation is if they have the faith to walk the paths of G-d. The only way I know that such can be done is by keeping the commandments. Therefore the only sure way I know is through the discipline and experience that comes from keeping the commandments.
Zadok

 

[smokydot]

Seems as though we have apparently conflicting testimony. Did you just totally ignore all the articles that I pointed out? They are written in the bible as well as the ones you point to. The ones I pointed out were attributed to jesus and the words you point to are attributed to who?

Then tell me plainly:

Are you a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?

Yes. . .or no?

I didn't think so.

 

[smokydot]

The ancient understanding of “salvation” correlates with the modern concept of salvage. When a shipwreck is salvaged the items of value or worth is separated from that which has no value. Some religions have some rather interesting notions of what has “value” and what is “worthless” to G-d and how such will be separated; despite the fact that G-d has been rather vocal (consistent in ancient scripture) about what he values and what is worthless to him.
There is an old Native American saying that we cannot know another until we have walked the paths they walk. I submit that the only way to be sure one is “saved”, salvaged or has salvation is if they have the faith to walk the paths of G-d. The only way I know that such can be done is by keeping the commandments. Therefore the only sure way I know is through the discipline and experience that comes from keeping the commandments.
Zadok

NT salvation is saving from God's just wrath on one's sin,
by faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice to remit one's sin,
which makes one right with God again, having removed one's guilt under God's justice.

 

[Walkntune]

Actually faith is so you won't ask questions and find out the truth...

No, that is fear.

 

[MW0082]

No, that is fear.

Nope that is faith kind sir, believing in something you have no evidence to support and never questioning it.