Salvation

[smokydot]

URAVIP2ME: Would you please respond to the questions in this post, which is a repost of #234. . .thanks. . .smokydot

URAVIP2ME: Hi smokydot

Thanks, URAVIP2ME, for your responses. I think your posts are edifying.
I'm still not quite clear though on your reference point.
I would appreciate your doing me the favor of answering a few basic questions.

1) Is Jesus Christ your Savior and Lord?

2) What do those two terms mean in your life?

3) Is there anything on your part which you must do in order for Jesus to be your savior, without which he would not be your savior?

URAVIP2ME: No. Not talking about signs and wonders [Matt chap 7]
but spiritual works [Luke 4v43] and the commission Jesus gave at Matt24v14; 28vs19,20

I suggest spiritual works are the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. (Gal 5:22-23)

URAVIP2ME: Because as Mark 1v15 says the kingdom of God [Matt 24v13,13] is at hand: repent and
believe the gospel or have faith in the good news; the good news of God's kingdom. Because as Mark 13v13 says the one who endures to the end will be saved.

What are the works that befit repentence? Acts 26v20B; Rom 2v6; 1 Peter 2v12; James 2v20

I see a couple of things here:
1) deeds of repentance (deeds necessary for repentance), and
2) deeds proving repentance (deeds necesssary to prove one has indeed repented).

Repentence means turn back, have another mind, change of mind. . .that is, to turn
a) from sin, and to living apart from sin, and
b) from unbelief in Jesus Christ, and to faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of one's sin.

1) The NT says both of these are the required works of repentance.

2) The deeds proving repentance (of which faith in Jesus Chirst is a part and, therefore, are deeds also proving that faith,
but which deeds, in themselves, are not repentance itself, nor that faith itself),
are obedience to Jesus' commands, such as the deeds of Luke 4:43, Matt 24:14, 28:19:20, Ac 26:20b, Rom 2:6, 1 Pe 2:12, Jas 2:20.

So the works of repentance are turning from sin, and to faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
And the works proving repentance (as well as faith in Jesus Christ) are obedience to Jesus' commands.

 

[smokydot]

Seems as though we have apparently conflicting testimony. Did you just totally ignore all the articles that I pointed out? They are written in the bible as well as the ones you point to. The ones I pointed out were attributed to jesus and the words you point to are attributed to who?

It's not the testimony that conflicts.
It's your misunderstanding that conflicts.
All the articles you pointed out are not the basis for salvation according to the NT.

Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is the only basis for salvation according to the NT.

The articles you pointed out can be the evidence of faith in Jesus Christ.
They also can be evidence of trying to earn a salvation that is by grace, and not by works, lest anyone should boast, according to the NT.
In either case, the articles are not faith itself in Jesus Christ.

 

[Zadok]

NT salvation is saving from God's just wrath on one's sin,
by faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice to remit one's sin,
which makes one right with God again, having removed one's guilt under God's justice.

It is by faith in Jesus Christ that one is willing to keep the commandments. If faith is insufficient in inspiring someone to love, enjoy, honor and keep the commandments then their faith is false, of the world, misguided and in vein.

It is not difficult to understand – the teachings of Christ are simple. If someone lacks the faith to keep the commandments there is no reason to think they are a disciple of Christ. BTW – the ancient term of disciple has the same root understanding as discipline.

Zadok

 

[thedope]

Another way to regard repentance is the reorientation of the pentacle of the senses.
Whereas before we sought to make amends for injustice, demanding payment or sacrifice we now search out only god and his kingdom, god's good mercy. We receive what we ask for.

We have been suspicious of our brother at best to vicious at worst and we feel justified in our regard of him because we claim to know the difference between good and evil, having good judgment. The fact is that we do not demonstrate that this is the case. Our lives absent any real measure of accounting is a process of unrelenting arbitration. Each verdict leads to another charge. Injustice is an imbalance of accounts. The only verdict that leaves nothing owing is not guilty.

 

[thedope]

It's not the testimony that conflicts.
It's your misunderstanding that conflicts.
All the articles you pointed out are not the basis for salvation according to the NT.

There is a fundamental disconnect from reality going on here and it is in the sense that scripture creates dogma, it does not. Dogma is gleaned from scripture, an interpretation.

Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is the only basis for salvation according to the NT.

Not everyone who says to me lord lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father. Pretty straightforward.

The articles you pointed out can be the evidence of faith in Jesus Christ.
They also can be evidence of trying to earn a salvation that is by grace, and not by works, lest anyone should boast, according to the NT.
In either case, the articles are not faith itself in Jesus Christ.

The faith required of heaven is a small willingness to keep the sayings of christ, to do so demonstrates they are true. It is the truth then, that sets us free.

 

[Zadok]

There is a fundamental disconnect from reality going on here and it is in the sense that scripture creates dogma, it does not. Dogma is gleaned from scripture, an interpretation.


Not everyone who says to me lord lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father. Pretty straightforward.

The faith required of heaven is a small willingness to keep the sayings of christ, to do so demonstrates they are true. It is the truth then, that sets us free.

It would seem that works and faith are compatible and not exclusionary. There are many that lack knowledge of electricity but have the faith to turn on a light at a switch. I believe that someone that just thinks a light should go on by some kind of grace – lives their life in darkness – even if they call it light.

Zadok

 

[smokydot]

There is a fundamental disconnect from reality going on here and it is in the sense that scripture creates dogma, it does not. Dogma is gleaned from scripture, an interpretation.
Not everyone who says to me lord lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father. Pretty straightforward.
The faith required of heaven is a small willingness to keep the sayings of christ, to do so demonstrates they are true. It is the truth then, that sets us free.

Sadly for you, the plain words of the NT couldn't disagree more.

This whole gig of yours that sits loose to the Word written is nothing more than an attempt to avoid accountability.
Good luck selling that to the Judge in the Divine Court.

And still avoiding by copious circumlocution the simple question of post #257.

 

[smokydot]

It would seem that works and faith are compatible and not exclusionary. There are many that lack knowledge of electricity but have the faith to turn on a light at a switch. I believe that someone that just thinks a light should go on by some kind of grace – lives their life in darkness – even if they call it light.

Zadok

They are most compatible in their correct places.

Faith is first, is the basis, is the means to salvation in Jesus Christ.
Works (obedience) are to be the evidence of faith in Jesus Christ.

But the NT is emphatic (Gal 2:20-3:29, 5:2-6; Eph 2:1-10) that we are justified (made right with God) by grace, through faith,
and not by works (Eph 2:8-9) or law keeping (Gal 5:2-4).
Faith in Christ is the only means of being made right with God; no human effort can contribute to our salvation; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

And if we try to add works or law keeping to grace, Paul says that Christ if of no value to us at all; we alienate ourselves from Christ; we fall away from grace (Gal 5:2,4).
That's serious stuff, folks!

The NT leaves absolutely no room for adding works or law keeping to salvation.
To do so is to impugn the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to save, so that you need to add your works or law keeping to fill its measure.

 

[thedope]

Sadly for you, the plain words of the NT couldn't disagree more.

It is sad that grown, I presume men, believe in talking books.

This whole gig of yours that sits loose to the Word written is nothing more than an attempt to avoid accountability.
Good luck selling that to the Judge in the Divine Court.

Accountability to what? God is not mocked and I am not into legaleese.

And still avoiding by copious circumlocution the simple question of post #257.

Actually I picked the thread up toward the end here but I will look at your question.

 

[thedope]

Then tell me plainly:

Are you a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?

Yes. . .or no?

I didn't think so.

Oh, I see the question you answered for yourself.

I am a disciple of christ under the tutor of the holy spirit.

Are you a priest of the inquisition?

 

[thedope]

Faith is first, is the basis, is the means to salvation in Jesus Christ.
Works (obedience) are to be the evidence of faith in Jesus Christ.

The greatest commandment is that we love god with all our heart and strength and the next that we love our brother as ourselves and these two fulfill the whole law.

But the NT is emphatic (Gal 2:20-3:29, 5:2-6; Eph 2:1-10) that we are justified (made right with God) by grace, through faith,
and not by works (Eph 2:8-9) or law keeping (Gal 5:2-4).
Faith in Christ is the only means of being made right with God; no human effort can contribute to our salvation; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

It is by his words that a man is justified and by his words he is condemned. It is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out. Forgive and you are forgiven, do not forgive and nor will your father forgive you. Judge not lest ye be judged. Give to him who asks of you. When you pray do so in secret. Do not worry what you shall wear or what you shall eat for your father knows you need these things.
Go and learn what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice. Who is my mother or brother or sister those who do the will of the father. Sin no more.

And if we try to add works or law keeping to grace, Paul says that Christ if of no value to us at all; we alienate ourselves from Christ; we fall away from grace (Gal 5:2,4).
That's serious stuff, folks!

Do not let your left hand know what the right hand doing, mastery is to pick your life up and lay it down at will.

The NT leaves absolutely no room for adding works or law keeping to salvation.
To do so is to impugn the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to save, so that you need to add your works or law keeping to fill its measure.

what sacrifice?

 

[Zadok]

They are most compatible in their correct places.

Faith is first, is the basis, is the means to salvation in Jesus Christ.
Works (obedience) are to be the evidence of faith in Jesus Christ.

But the NT is emphatic (Gal 2:20-3:29, 5:2-6; Eph 2:1-10) that we are justified (made right with God) by grace, through faith,
and not by works (Eph 2:8-9) or law keeping (Gal 5:2-4).
Faith in Christ is the only means of being made right with God; no human effort can contribute to our salvation; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

And if we try to add works or law keeping to grace, Paul says that Christ if of no value to us at all; we alienate ourselves from Christ; we fall away from grace (Gal 5:2,4).
That's serious stuff, folks!

The NT leaves absolutely no room for adding works or law keeping to salvation.
To do so is to impugn the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to save, so that you need to add your works or law keeping to fill its measure.

The criticism of works is a misinterpretation that is out of context with Paul’s letters to gentiles that did not understand the Jewish context and background of Christ that taught of the importance of the works of faith and covenant. This is because the gentiles were dominated by Hellenistic philosophy that believed in the scales of Mott. The Hellenistic gentiles believed that sometime after death a soul would arrive at the golden gates of heaven where they would be met by Mott who had a scale in his possession. All of the good deeds of a soul were placed on the right side of the scale and all their evil deeds were placed on the left side of the scale. If the scale tipped to the right Mott admitted the soul into heaven. If the scale tipped to the left the soul was sent to hell.

During the time of Paul the Hellenistic gentiles developed the idea that if they stocked pilled enough “good” deeds they were justified in some fun “evil” deeds. Sort of like if someone was loyal to their spouse all year that it was okay to have a fun night once of year of wild adultery. Paul taught that such concepts concerning “good” deeds would not help one bit as a justification before G-d. Paul never taught that the works and deeds of covenant (in other words loyalty to covenants) were not necessary in order to have the gift of faith.

Jesus clearly taught that obedience to commandments was necessary before a person could have any claim to having been forgiven or to have received grace from G-d. The NT is very clear that anyone that says they love G-d and are not obedient to the commandments is not is not a disciple of Christ but is not an honest person to be believed. I recommend you take the words of Jesus to heart and turn away from teachers that deceive the “sheep” in any way from being obedient to their covenants.

Zadok

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The greatest commandment is that we love god with all our heart and strength and the next that we love our brother as ourselves and these two fulfill the whole law.
what sacrifice?

What sacrifice? Didn't you ever read Hebrews 9 vs22-26 mentioning the sacrifice of Jesus himself?

Luke 10vs 27 mentioned more than love God with all our heart and strength but added soul and mind, but didn't Jesus give us a new commandment at John 13vs 34,35 to love as he loved?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thanks, URAVIP2ME, for your responses. I think your posts are edifying.
I'm still not quite clear though on your reference point.
I would appreciate your doing me the favor of answering a few basic questions.
1) Is Jesus Christ your Savior and Lord?
2) What do those two terms mean in your life?
3) Is there anything on your part on which Jesus being your savior must be conditioned, and without which he would not be your savior?
I suggest spiritual works are the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. (Gal 5:22-23)
I see a couple of things here:
1) deeds of repentance (deeds necessary for repentance), and
2) deeds proving repentance (deeds necesssary to prove one has indeed repented).
Repentence means turn back, have another mind, change of mind. . .that is, to turn
a) from sin, and to living apart from sin, and
b) from unbelief in Jesus Christ, and to faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of one's sin.
1) The NT says both of these are the required works of repentance.
2) The deeds proving repentance (of which faith in Jesus Chirst is a part and, therefore, are deeds also proving that faith,
but which deeds, in themselves, are not repentance itself, nor that faith itself),
are obedience to Jesus' commands, such as the deeds of Luke 4:43, Matt 24:14, 28:19:20, Ac 26:20b, Rom 2:6, 1 Pe 2:12, Jas 2:20.
So the works of repentance are turning from sin, and to faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
And the works proving repentance (as well as faith in Jesus Christ) are obedience to Jesus' commands.

If Jesus Christ was not my Savior and Lord there would be no point in posting about Jesus teachings. -Matt 28vs19,20; 24v14.

By the two terms do you mean 'Savior' and 'Lord'?

Savior can also mean Deliverer. I believe Jesus will ultimately save or deliver us from danger or destruction. Remember the angel told Mary that Jesus would save his people from their sins? Only Jesus can fulfill that role.
Belief in Jesus ransom sacrifice is the basis for our salvation.

Lord is a title of respect and not a personal name but sometimes used in place of a divine name.
There are two [2] LORD/Lord's mentioned at Psalm 110v1.
The one LORD, in all capitals, is where the tetragrammaton [YHWH] stood which are the four letters that stood for God's name.- Psalm 83v18
The other 'Lord', not in all capitals, stands for Jesus' name.
So what that means in my life is the same as in the model prayer Jesus gave us at Matthew 6 vs 9,13 and Luke 11 vs2-4 that God's name should be hallowed or made holy, sanctified.

Agree, spiritual works, and Jesus gave us the illustration of the good Samaritan to show us that we can broaden out in our love for others. -John 13vs34,35.

Repentance is repentance from sin or sinful deeds.
David [Psalm 51v11] showed heartfelt repentance.
So yes, repentance would be shown by the actions of obedience.

 

[thedope]

What sacrifice? Didn't you ever read Hebrews 9 vs22-26 mentioning the sacrifice of Jesus himself?

Yes, I have read it. Jesus' only desire to do the will of his father. I regard sacrifice as giving up something you would prefer to keep. Jesus would have it no other way. The only hint that Jesus may have considered himself to be a sacrifice in any way was a moments trepidation over the pain involved in crucifixion.
I have an appreciation for the mind that is in christ jesus. His life and teaching a demonstration of metaphysical principle. By metaphysical I mean of the essential nature of reality. Jesus demonstrated our true relationship with the father and with each other as brothers and sisters in god. Jesus demonstrated that mans accusations against his brother have no power to affect gods judgment of his children but surely makes his mercy seem obscure, the measure you give is the measure you get. It is the son of man or men that have the power to forgive sins. Yet if I were to suggest that the children of this world were innocent, the rabble would still cry give us barabas instead. God created the world and saw that it was good. The son of god has done nothing to alter what god had created, we are all still as god created us.

Luke 10vs 27 mentioned more than love God with all our heart and strength but added soul and mind, but didn't Jesus give us a new commandment at John 13vs 34,35 to love as he loved?

Purely I paraphrase because I know the sayings are familiar to us all. the love of god is it's own condition and therefore beyond what can be taught. Only god is good. But we can let go of the barriers we have built against the perception of it in the form of judgment. Always we must condemn in order to justify our unwillingness to forgive. We cannot love what we judge against. I desire mercy not sacrifice.

 

[smokydot]

It is sad that grown, I presume men, believe in talking books.

I dont think it is sad at all. . .many different books have taught me much.

Accountability to what? God is not mocked and I am not into legaleese.

That would be accountability to believe what God has revealed in his Word written,
starting with what it reveals about his salvation--what it is, what it is not, what is necessary to receive it, etc. . .
rather than setting up your own system where you are above God's Word written and morally free to ignore and/or discount it
in favor of your own contra-Biblical belief system.

And according to the NT, you are into legaleese when you think works contribute to your salvation.

Actually I picked the thread up toward the end here but I will look at your question.

 

[smokydot]

Oh, I see the question you answered for yourself.
I am a disciple of christ under the tutor of the holy spirit.

That doesn't answer the question I asked:

Are you a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?

Nor does it translate into a "yes" answer to my question.

Are you a priest of the inquisition?

I am just trying to understand your true reference point, which you seem to have something vested in hiding.

 

[smokydot]

The greatest commandment is that we love god with all our heart and strength and the next that we love our brother as ourselves and these two fulfill the whole law.

It is by his words that a man is justified and by his words he is condemned. It is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out. Forgive and you are forgiven, do not forgive and nor will your father forgive you. Judge not lest ye be judged. Give to him who asks of you. When you pray do so in secret. Do not worry what you shall wear or what you shall eat for your father knows you need these things.
Go and learn what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice. Who is my mother or brother or sister those who do the will of the father. Sin no more.

Do not let your left hand know what the right hand doing, mastery is to pick your life up and lay it down at will.

According to the NT, law keeping and religious works will not save you from the just wrath of God remaining on you without faith in Jesus Christ,
which faith makes you right with God.
That's the Word of God written to which you do not want to be accountable, so you seek refuge in your own words (copious circumlocution) which deny accountability.

what sacrifice?

The one that saves those who trust on it to make them right with God through forgiveness of their sin.

 

[thedope]

That doesn't answer the question I asked:

Are you a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?

Nor does it translate into a "yes" answer to my question.

I gave you my response. You will interpret it as you will regardless. My faith is in the truth.

I am just trying to understand your true reference point, which you seem to have something vested in hiding.

I gave you my reference point. I am a disciple of christ under the tutorage of the holy spirit. I am not a christian of any creed, I take no oaths. I was baptized by the church with water and thereafter in christ by fire and the holy spirit.

You are not asking me for truth, you seek whether I am in compliance with your understanding. You are reaching for a verdict.

 

[thedope]

According to the NT, law keeping and religious works will not save you from the just wrath of God remaining on you without faith in Jesus Christ,
which faith makes you right with God.

No words stand between me and my devotion to god.

That's the Word of God written to which you do not want to be accountable, so you seek refuge in your own words (copious circumlocution) which deny accountability.

If I have need it is provided by the holy spirit.

The one that saves those who trust on it to make them right with God through forgiveness of their sin.

I am forgiven as I forgive.