Same Sex Marriage

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christians can't change people's minds and hearts by shouting at them or trying to block their personal descisions. that's weird, and not very productive. not to mention mean and ungracious. Christians are called to be pure, modest, humble, and to adhere to standards of uprightness and Godliness. this includes rejecting relatioships, temptations, and desires which get in the way of one's walk with God. but i wouldn';t expect any out and proud individual to see that as applicable to their identity and orientation, or even spiritually meaningful.

so i'd argue that it's it's best for Christians to live and let live, share the truth when able, and pray for folks. and above all, treat others as you would want to be treated.

Thanks.

Something popped into my head while reading your post - not so much directly from what you wrote, but from thinking about related issues.

Most Christianity in the US is Protestant: they're very big into the idea that salvation is gained through "faith, not works". The interpretation that I've heard many times is that once a person is saved, the indwelling Holy Spirit within that person will express itself outwardly through "proper" behaviour.

I realize that this doesn't necessarily mesh up with Catholic or LDS theology, but in any other context, if you ask a huge proportion of the anti-same-sex marriage camp what value works without faith has, they'll say that it has no value at all.

So... why are they pursuing this course of action? Why clamp down on the behaviour of non-believers? Wouldn't the more Christian (or at least Protestant Christian) position be to bring all people to Christ, and then any issues of behaviour will be corrected by the Holy Spirit? Even if we take as given their position that homosexuality or same-sex marriage are sinful, why take the stance they have?

In the viewpoint of standard Protestant theology and even accepting all the positions on homosexuality and sin, if the anti-same-sex marriage movement doesn't address the core issues of faith, isn't it kinda like "whitewashing tombs", to use Jesus' analogy? What's the point?

 

[ayani]

How would you vote on the issue?

honestly, i'd have to decline to vote on principal. because i can't say "live and let live and let God convict people" and actively try to illegalize gay marriage with my vote at the same time. that would be hypocritical.

btw, you know that thousands of Gay and Lesbian Christians (of which I am not one) believe that their love relationships support their walk with God, right?

they do believe that, and i am aware of that. but their relationship is not something God has ordered, permitted, or blessed. a Christ-follower goes based on what God's Son has said and done in the Gospels. Jesus refers not only to the Gensis account of the creation on man and woman, but to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. this may be difficult for many Christians to accept, but it's there. either a Christian follows Christ and shares His view on discipleship and sin, or they don't. one can't follow Him 90% of the way and chose to ignore the 10% they find difficult and still call themselves a comitted Christian.

of course there are many practicing gay and lesbian couples who also adhere to Christian faith in some form. but their living in what is essentially sin and still claiming to love and follow God with all their heart and soul and might presents a contradiction.

 

[ayani]

that is an excellent point. and honestly, i don't see the logic behind it, either.

there's this scary mix in America of Christianity and right-wing conservative secular politics that now seems to be losing it's grip. honestly, a Christian should not and can not (as a Christian) enforce Biblical principals on people who don't get it, can't get it, and who don't want to have anything to do with it.

in theocratic Islamic countries, forcing non-Muslims to adhere to Islamic law is considered mean and inhumane. but for Christians to do the same is somehow ok. i disagree. eitehr you are convicted personally by God, or not. if God wants to get ahold of a person, He can and will. the job of a Christian is to converse, share the truth, love his or her neighbor, and personally live a life of purity, prayer, service, and gentleness for Christ's sake. to be light and salt, not a battering ram.

He's given me the chance to share my testimony with a gay woman at work, share my former and current personal position on gay marriage and homosexuality, and even explain the Gospel to her (she asked) and give her a Bible (which she thanked me for and took). so He does give Christians these chances to really love one's neighbor and keep loving them. through attitude, kindness, and witnessing.

So... why are they pursuing this course of action? Why clamp down on the behaviour of non-believers? Wouldn't the more Christian (or at least Protestant Christian) position be to bring all people to Christ, and then any issues of behaviour will be corrected by the Holy Spirit? Even if we take as given their position that homosexuality or same-sex marriage are sinful, why take the stance they have?

In the viewpoint of standard Protestant theology and even accepting all the positions on homosexuality and sin, if the anti-same-sex marriage movement doesn't address the core issues of faith, isn't it kinda like "whitewashing tombs", to use Jesus' analogy? What's the point?

 

[Autodidact]

honestly, i'd have to decline to vote on principal. because i can't say "live and let live and let God convict people" and actively try to illegalize gay marriage with my vote at the same time. that would be hypocritical.

I appreciate that.

they do believe that, and i am aware of that. but their relationship is not something God has ordered, permitted, or blessed. a Christ-follower goes based on what God's Son has said and done in the Gospels. Jesus refers not only to the Gensis account of the creation on man and woman, but to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[/FONT]Ezekiel 16:48-50] Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

Surely you can distinguish between sex and rape?

this may be difficult for many Christians to accept, but it's there.

No, it is not clearly there. It's not at all clear.

either a Christian follows Christ and shares His view on discipleship and sin, or they don't. one can't follow Him 90% of the way and chose to ignore the 10% they find difficult and still call themselves a comitted Christian.

Of course, but they have a very different idea of what Christ asks of them, as do millions of Christians.

of course there are many practicing gay and lesbian couples who also adhere to Christian faith in some form. but their living in what is essentially sin and still claiming to love and follow God with all their heart and soul and might presents a contradiction.

Lesbianism is not prohibited. Divorce is. Fact. These people do not believe that what they are doing is sinful. And who is anyone else to tell them different?

 

[ayani]

Auto ~

understandably rape and consentual sex are two different things. but rape was not the only context of Sodom and Gomorrah. rape *was* the context of Tamar and Amnon in 2 Samuel 13, but in Sodom and Gomorrah the context is not only rape, but same-sex sexual activity.

Jesus refers to Sodom and Gomorrah, saying they will fare better on the Day of Judgement than those cities who rejected Him. yet both the cities past and then current are to be judged, and not based soley on rape or inhospitality.

obviously there are many things one can ignore, spiritualize, or attempt to expalin away within the Bible. but the same Hebrew Scriptures Jesus quotes say clearly that same-sex sexual relations are wrong, not in accord with God's design or plan for His people, and certainly not blessed. Biblically, God created us male and female, to compliment, enjoy, and fulfil one another within marriage. such rights and allowances are not given to male-male or female-female relationships. sexually diversity exists, but then again many diverse identities and behaviors exist whioch God has never sanctioned or else has disallowed.

Lesbianism is mentioned in Romans 1:26-27, where male-male sexual reslations are condemned and where female sexual perversion is cast in the same light, as women giving up their natural (God-given) relations for sexual sin. "in the same way" as this female deviation from the will of God is condemned, male-male sexual activity is cited and condemned.

not everything in the Bible is spelled out letter for letter, but reading the text to explain the text can help one understand what the Binbe says, what is Biblically right, and what is not right.

 

[Autodidact]

Auto ~

understandably rape and consentual sex are two different things. but rape was not the only context of Sodom and Gomorrah. rape *was* the context of Tamar and Amnon in 2 Samuel 13, but in Sodom and Gomorrah the context is not only rape, but same-sex sexual activity.

It's same-sex rape and inhospitality.

Jesus refers to Sodom and Gomorrah, saying they will fare better on the Day of Judgement than those cities who rejected Him. yet both the cities past and then current are to be judged, and not based soley on rape or inhospitality.

Yes, He says: If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Again, He does not mention homosexuality, but inhospitality and rejection of God.

obviously there are many things one can ignore, spiritualize, or attempt to expalin away within the Bible. but the same Hebrew Scriptures Jesus quotes say clearly that same-sex sexual relations are wrong, not in accord with God's design or plan for His people, and certainly not blessed.

Could you cite a verse please?

Biblically, God created us male and female, to compliment, enjoy, and fulfil one another within marriage. such rights and allowances are not given to male-male or female-female relationships. sexually diversity exists, but then again many diverse identities and behaviors exist whioch God has never sanctioned or else has disallowed.

This is all your interpretation. You could also say that God created each person in a way and for a purpose of his choosing, and to reject your nature and attempt to live a lie violates His purpose.

Lesbianism is mentioned in Romans 1:26-27, where male-male sexual reslations are condemned and where female sexual perversion is cast in the same light, as women giving up their natural (God-given) relations for sexual sin. "in the same way" as this female deviation from the will of God is condemned, male-male sexual activity is cited and condemned.

Thta passage is a story about how God punishes people who turn away from him, by, among other things, forcing them to have sex which is unnatural for them. It is not a prohibition of anything. I'm sure you'll agree that God knows how to prohibit things. Heck, he prohibits building houses without parapets, but never lesbianism. Not once.

not everything in the Bible is spelled out letter for letter, but reading the text to explain the text can help one understand what the Binbe says, what is Biblically right, and what is not right.

That's the interpretation part. If you take as Christ's central message to love God and each other, you will read these passages very differently.

In particular, it appears to be a minor concern of OT purity taboos as other Leviticus rules regarding eating and so forth, which Jesus rejects.

 

[ayani]

Could you cite a verse please?

a few Biblical passages relating to male-female relations, homosexuality, and sin.

Leviticus 18:22, I Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Genesis 1:27-28, Genesis 2:20b-24, Romans 1:26-27, Genesis 18:20-33 and 19:1-25.

not every passage is going to say "same-sex sexual activity is a sin". what they do refer to is God's ordered creation, His expressed will for His creatures (specifically humans) and what constritutes deviating from that design and deserving of either punishment or correction.

 

[Autodidact]

Specifically, you said,

but the same Hebrew Scriptures Jesus quotes say clearly that same-sex sexual relations are wrong,

Where does Jesus quote OT passages that clearly state that same-sex sexual relations are wrong?

 

[ayani]

Specifically, you said, Where does Jesus quote OT passages that clearly state that same-sex sexual relations are wrong?

He doesn't. but He does quote Hebrew Scriptures whose larger body contains verses which clearly spell out that male-male sexual activity is wrong, and that God blesses and has ordained and designed male and female couples to be married, and be fruitful and multiply.

Jesus quotes verses from the larger text with authroity and to give a background for what He is teaching. He refers to the Hebrew scriptures (Torah and Prophets, for example) as God's Word. so it would go to reason that all of what He quotes from with authoity and purpose is also God's Word, and relevent for Christians today. if not practically, generally via the examples and virtues illuminated therein. such as purity, generosity, hope, sacrifice, forgiveness, and thorough dedication to God's Law.

 

[Autodidact]

He doesn't.

So you were mistaken on that point. And you agree with Jesus that the sin of Sodom was selfishness?

but He does quote Hebrew Scriptures whose larger body contains verses which clearly spell out that male-male sexual activity is wrong, and that God blesses and has ordained and designed male and female couples to be married, and be fruitful and multiply.

Now you're really stretching. Jesus specifically tells us to discard those purity taboos in Leviticus, that is not the path to holiness. As for the rest, again that's your over-interpretation. There are no verses that "clearly spell out" any of this.

Jesus quotes verses from the larger text with authroity and to give a background for what He is teaching. He refers to the Hebrew scriptures (Torah and Prophets, for example) as God's Word. so it would go to reason that all of what He quotes from with authoity and purpose is also God's Word, and relevent for Christians today. if not practically, generally via the examples and virtues illuminated therein. such as purity, generosity, hope, sacrifice, forgiveness, and thorough dedication to God's Law.

Why do I just know that you don't keep those commandments yourself? You keep kosher? That would be a start, if this really were your interpretation of Jesus' message. I doubt that very much. We are under a new covenant, no longer about animal sacrifice and purity taboos, now about faith in God and love of neighbor, don't you agree?

 

[Druswid]

I'm curious as to how you know that God has not permitted, allowed or blessed same sex unions. I mean, do you speak to God and really, truly know that God is speaking back to you? Why are you so special that God should choose to speak to you and not to so many others who've asked and needed His help? Unless you're a fundamentalist, and you certainly could be, you would know that the Bible is a book, written by many different men throughout the ages. Many of the things in the Bible are extraordinarily outdated, ridiculous, or violent, which isn't in line with what Christianity is supposed to be. Same sex marriage or relationships don't harm you in any way. They don't endanger the foundations of marriage, because no one is going to discriminate against a man and a woman getting married. Also, there's the whole nature thing that comes into play, where people don't get to choose whether they're gay or straight. I mean, really, think about it. Do you think Matthew Shepherd, who was murdered, would have freely chosen that fate for himself? He trusted that people would be accepting and open, and if they weren't, they'd keep it to themselves. No one chooses something that will get them discriminated against. It's just absurd. How you can hold with such outdated ideas as same sex relationships being wrong is just beyond me. But then again, maybe you weren't raised in a secular household where true tolerance is taught, instead of Christianity, which abounds in places with prejudice. If you were really a good, honest Christian, you would be championing equality across the board, regardless of what a centuries old book tells you.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

. . .
Christians can't change people's minds and hearts by shouting at them or trying to block their personal descisions. that's weird, and not very productive. not to mention mean and ungracious. Christians are called to be pure, modest, humble, and to adhere to standards of uprightness and Godliness. this includes rejecting relatioships, temptations, and desires which get in the way of one's walk with God. but i wouldn';t expect any out and proud individual to see that as applicable to their identity and orientation, or even spiritually meaningful.

so i'd argue that it's it's best for Christians to live and let live, share the truth when able, and pray for folks. and above all, treat others as you would want to be treated.

I must say as one who has almost daily contact with devout bible-believing god-fearing proud Christians - that is NOT very Christian of you.

You are called to be a witness by BOTH word and deed. You are to preach the gospel to ALL within hearing - willing or no. Most especially those unwilling to hear because their souls are in the most danger. A concern for their eternal future should motivate you to try ever more forcefully to convince them of the damnation that is sure to come. To pass an unbeliever by w/o loudly and vigorously pointing out his ungodly state is callous - at best.

Or so I am told.

 

[fantome profane]

I must say as one who has almost daily contact with devout bible-believing god-fearing proud Christians - that is NOT very Christian of you.

You are called to be a witness by BOTH word and deed. You are to preach the gospel to ALL within hearing - willing or no. Most especially those unwilling to hear because their souls are in the most danger. A concern for their eternal future should motivate you to try ever more forcefully to convince them of the damnation that is sure to come. To pass an unbeliever by w/o loudly and vigorously pointing out his ungodly state is callous - at best.

Or so I am told.

Please don’t do that, not even in jest. We should acknowledge and encourage civilized behaviour when we see it, and ayani’s posts in this thread show a very civilized attitude.

 

[painted wolf]

Absolutely!

wa:do

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Please don’t do that, not even in jest. We should acknowledge and encourage civilized behaviour when we see it, and ayani’s posts in this thread show a very civilized attitude.

Which was exactly my point.

It is a civilized attitude. :yes:

As contrasted with . . .

And I WASN'T kidding.:no:

 

[ayani]

Ayani, I'm confused. Do you support or oppose same sex marriage rights? Your post could be taken either way.

i'm politically neutral on the issue. morally, i oppose the idea and practice of same-sex couples marrying. i'm not going to support gay marriage, as i don't believe it is right or scriptural. but i'm also not going to try and stop legislation from being passed the other way.

does that make sense?

basically, i keep national politics and my faith seperate. legislation, political activism, and bills have nothing to do with how i live my life as a Christian. if tomorrow Congress passed a law saying that all gay couples in every state can marry, i'd be saddnened, but not outraged. it's a secular country, and the governemnt and people can do what they like. theocracies can be dangeous, and the road to h*ll is paved with good intentions.

if tomorrow Congress passed a law prohibiting Christians (or anyone else) from voicing the view that gay marriage is wrong / immoral, i'd ignore that law. if asked, in spite of that law, i'd tell someone honestly how i feel about it, and possibly quote scripture.

so basically, secular laws and religious life are two wholly seperate things for me. i don't let secualr trends or laws dictate what i believe or what i say, and i wouldn't expect a secular nation to adopt my Christian views or beliefs.

 

[Storm]

i'm politically neutral on the issue. morally, i oppose the idea and practice of same-sex couples marrying. i'm not going to support gay marriage, as i don't believe it is right or scriptural. but i'm also not going to try and stop legislation from being passed the other way.

does that make sense?

basically, i keep national politics and my faith seperate. legislation, political activism, and bills have nothing to do with how i live my life as a Christian. if tomorrow Congress passed a law saying that all gay couples in every state can marry, i'd be saddnened, but not outraged. it's a secular country, and the governemnt and people can do what they like. theocracies can be dangeous, and the road to h*ll is paved with good intentions.

if tomorrow Congress passed a law prohibiting Christians (or anyone else) from voicing the view that gay marriage is wrong / immoral, i'd ignore that law. if asked, in spite of that law, i'd tell someone honestly how i feel about it, and possibly quote scripture.

so basically, secular laws and religious life are two wholly seperate things for me. i don't let secualr trends or laws dictate what i believe or what i say, and i wouldn't expect a secular nation to adopt my Christian views or beliefs.

It does make sense, thank you for clarifying.

 

[ayani]

If you were really a good, honest Christian, you would be championing equality across the board, regardless of what a centuries old book tells you.

well, i reject the notion that in order to be what you consider a "good, honest Christian" i have to reject or distance myself from the Bible. i would answer quite the contrary.

in order for me to be a good, honest Christian (follower of Christ) i am supposed to adhere to His words, and put them into practice. Christ quotes the OT from Genesis to Malachi with authority and truth. i have no reason to doubt Him or the texts He quotes as God-given, inspired, and relevant for me today as a Christian.

 

[Autodidact]

well, i reject the notion that in order to be what you consider a "good, honest Christian" i have to reject or distance myself from the Bible. i would answer quite the contrary.

in order for me to be a good, honest Christian (follower of Christ) i am supposed to adhere to His words, and put them into practice. Christ quotes the OT from Genesis to Malachi with authority and truth. i have no reason to doubt Him or the texts He quotes as God-given, inspired, and relevant for me today as a Christian.

This confuses me. Do you keep kosher? Do you make animal sacrifices? Celebrate the Sabbath, the seventh day, by keeping from all work? Do you make any graven images? What about wearing clothing of mixed fibers? You seem to be saying that all of these commandments apply to Christians, yet almost no Christians keep them.

 

[ayani]

no, Auto.

not everything mentioned in, for example, Leviticus literally applies to Christians today.

it is understood that God commanded His Hebrew children to follow these laws and commands through Moses. under Messiah, sent by the same God for all peoples, the Law is not destroyed, but fulfilled. Jesus summarizes the Law with two commands- love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and might, and love your neighbor as yourself.

under Messiah, there is no need for the careful keeping of Mosaic Law, or animal sacrifices. Jesus becomes our sacrifice, to take away our sins forever, and make us right with God once and for all.

a Christian *can* follow Mosaic Law, but as we are saved by faith in God's Son and His grace (and not by keeping religious laws carefully) it makes sense to most Christians to live by faith and grace and now the Law.

that doesn't mean that Leviticus is meaningless. a Christian can read the text and understand God's voice and will through it. he or she can appreciate the virtues and lessons illustrated there for the Hebrew people, and again for Christians. virtues like obedience, sacrifice, thoroughness in obeying God, trusting Him, and keeping one's self holy (pure, set aside) for His use and good pleasure.

This confuses me. Do you keep kosher? Do you make animal sacrifices? Celebrate the Sabbath, the seventh day, by keeping from all work? Do you make any graven images? What about wearing clothing of mixed fibers? You seem to be saying that all of these commandments apply to Christians, yet almost no Christians keep them.