Same Sex Marriage

[Autodidact]

no, Auto.

not everything mentioned in, for example, Leviticus literally applies to Christians today.

it is understood that God commanded His Hebrew children to follow these laws and commands through Moses. under Messiah, sent by the same God for all peoples, the Law is not destroyed, but fulfilled. Jesus summarizes the Law with two commands- love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and might, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Exactly my point. And the laws you are citing come from Leviticus. They don't apply to Christians today. You don't need to worry about those laws any more.

under Messiah, there is no need for the careful keeping of Mosaic Law, or animal sacrifices. Jesus becomes our sacrifice, to take away our sins forever, and make us right with God once and for all.

And those laws you are now insisting on are of this type.

a Christian *can* follow Mosaic Law, but as we are saved by faith in God's Son and His grace (and not by keeping religious laws carefully) it makes sense to most Christians to live by faith and grace and now the Law.

that doesn't mean that Leviticus is meaningless. a Christian can read the text and understand God's voice and will through it. he or she can appreciate the virtues and lessons illustrated there for the Hebrew people, and again for Christians. virtues like obedience, sacrifice, thoroughness in obeying God, trusting Him, and keeping one's self holy (pure, set aside) for His use and good pleasure.

Yes, and none of them have anything to do with whether one is heterosexual or homosexual.

 

[Comicaze247]

i'm politically neutral on the issue. morally, i oppose the idea and practice of same-sex couples marrying. i'm not going to support gay marriage, as i don't believe it is right or scriptural. but i'm also not going to try and stop legislation from being passed the other way.

does that make sense?

basically, i keep national politics and my faith seperate. legislation, political activism, and bills have nothing to do with how i live my life as a Christian. if tomorrow Congress passed a law saying that all gay couples in every state can marry, i'd be saddnened, but not outraged. it's a secular country, and the governemnt and people can do what they like. theocracies can be dangeous, and the road to h*ll is paved with good intentions.

if tomorrow Congress passed a law prohibiting Christians (or anyone else) from voicing the view that gay marriage is wrong / immoral, i'd ignore that law. if asked, in spite of that law, i'd tell someone honestly how i feel about it, and possibly quote scripture.

so basically, secular laws and religious life are two wholly seperate things for me. i don't let secualr trends or laws dictate what i believe or what i say, and i wouldn't expect a secular nation to adopt my Christian views or beliefs.

Grr, I've frubaled you too recently, lol

 

[Little Joe Gould]

I didn't bother reading the whole thread, so if this has already been said before, whoops!

But here's what really gets on my nerves with regards to the modern church. They act as if gay marriage is legal then the church will somehow not be able to still teach that homosexuality is wrong. The church is there to teach their beliefs on right and wrong, not to fight against the government to tamper with the rights of others. The government is there to protect the rights of the people and give everyone equal opportunity for life, liberty, and happiness. If gays want to get married for the sake of merely having the same rights as others, why not? But the church serves a different purpose. The church can teach whatever it is they want to teach about the nature of right and wrong regardless of whatever laws are put in place. They aren't there to take rights away from people. And besides, even if a gay couple doesn't get married they are still going to live together, have sex, and do whatever else they do. I don't see why it is a big deal in the slightest.

 

[Little Joe Gould]

i'm politically neutral on the issue. morally, i oppose the idea and practice of same-sex couples marrying. i'm not going to support gay marriage, as i don't believe it is right or scriptural. but i'm also not going to try and stop legislation from being passed the other way.

does that make sense?

basically, i keep national politics and my faith seperate. legislation, political activism, and bills have nothing to do with how i live my life as a Christian. if tomorrow Congress passed a law saying that all gay couples in every state can marry, i'd be saddnened, but not outraged. it's a secular country, and the governemnt and people can do what they like. theocracies can be dangeous, and the road to h*ll is paved with good intentions.

if tomorrow Congress passed a law prohibiting Christians (or anyone else) from voicing the view that gay marriage is wrong / immoral, i'd ignore that law. if asked, in spite of that law, i'd tell someone honestly how i feel about it, and possibly quote scripture.

so basically, secular laws and religious life are two wholly seperate things for me. i don't let secualr trends or laws dictate what i believe or what i say, and i wouldn't expect a secular nation to adopt my Christian views or beliefs.

This. My thoughts worded very well. Thank you ayani.

 

[somebody1982]

Jesus didnt believe in same sex marriage. In Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus tells the Pharisees "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
and said, 'for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus didnt believe in same sex marriage. In Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus tells the Pharisees "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
and said, 'for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Judging by that verse, Jesus didn't believe in bachelorhood either. Shouldn't Christians also be campaigning to make it illegal for unmarried men to live apart from their parents?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Hey Pilgram,

As an atheistic pagan. I don't see a problem with gay marriage as i don't see any problem with being gay.

I'm sorry if this has been said before. They are people too. You wouldnt know most of them were gay unless they told you. They love, they hurt, they cry over being dumped. They do all the stupid things grieving people do to deal with their pain. They argue the same arguments straight people have.

Why shouldn't they be allowed to get married?

-Q

 

[somebody1982]

I didn't bother reading the whole thread, so if this has already been said before, whoops!

But here's what really gets on my nerves with regards to the modern church. They act as if gay marriage is legal then the church will somehow not be able to still teach that homosexuality is wrong. The church is there to teach their beliefs on right and wrong, not to fight against the government to tamper with the rights of others. The government is there to protect the rights of the people and give everyone equal opportunity for life, liberty, and happiness. If gays want to get married for the sake of merely having the same rights as others, why not? But the church serves a different purpose. The church can teach whatever it is they want to teach about the nature of right and wrong regardless of whatever laws are put in place. They aren't there to take rights away from people. And besides, even if a gay couple doesn't get married they are still going to live together, have sex, and do whatever else they do. I don't see why it is a big deal in the slightest.

One of the problems if we were to legalize gay marriage is that it would actually threaten to take away religious freedoms becasue pastors could get into trouble for discrimination if they refused to marry a gay couple for religious convictions and it may become labeled as "hate speech" for a pastor to teach that homosexuality is a sin, as has happened in Canada. They would also start trying to indoctrine children in the school system that being gay is ok and read books like King ang King (which is a children's book that depicts a prince falling in love with another prince and they marry at the end). They did this in Massachusetts without the parents knowledge. I just dont think its the schools place to say whether homosexuality is ok or not. Its a very devisive issue and that should be left up to the parents to discuss with their kids. So, the reality is that if gay marriage were to be legalized, gay people would be a protected group of people that would earn "special rights" and us christians would just have to suck it up and give up even more of our religious rights. I thought everyone was suppose to be treated equal. Also just wondering why would it only be considered a hate crime if a person killed a gay person but not if somebody killed a person just based on them being a christian? Arent both of those crimes motivated by hate? Just curious

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One of the problems if we were to legalize gay marriage is that it would actually threaten to take away religious freedoms becasue pastors could get into trouble for discrimination if they refused to marry a gay couple for religious convictions and it may become labeled as "hate speech" for a pastor to teach that homosexuality is a sin, as has happened in Canada.

No, it hasn't. Religious speech is specifically exempt from our hate speech laws.

They would also start trying to indoctrine children in the school system that being gay is ok and read books like King ang King (which is a children's book that depicts a prince falling in love with another prince and they marry at the end). They did this in Massachusetts without the parents knowledge.

Before same-sex marriage was legalized. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy, but you haven't even got to that point yet. Your timing's off.

So, the reality is that if gay marriage were to be legalized, gay people would be a protected group of people that would earn "special rights" and us christians would just have to suck it up and give up even more of our religious rights.

You have no religious right to infringe on the rights of others. If you think you do, then yes, just suck it up.

And discrimination and hate crime laws that mention sexual orientation have nothing to do with same-sex marriage. One does not lead to the other. In fact, in most places I can think of, it was the discrimination laws that came first.

I thought everyone was suppose to be treated equal. Also just wondering why would it only be considered a hate crime if a person killed a gay person but not if somebody killed a person just based on them being a christian? Arent both of those crimes motivated by hate? Just curious

It would be. Whoever got the idea into your head that it wouldn't be was either lying or very poorly informed.

 

[Storm]

So, the reality is that if gay marriage were to be legalized, gay people would be a protected group of people

And we can't have that, can we? God forbid people lose their right to beat us to death.

that would earn "special rights"

What rights would queers get that straights don't already have? Because I don't know of any, and without that, you don't have "special rights," you have EQUAL rights. Something this country is supposedly founded on.

and us christians would just have to suck it up and give up even more of our religious rights.

What religious rights would be infringed? As Penguin pointed out, you're still entitled to your hate speech. You're still entitled to refuse to extend your blessings on same sex unions. You're just not entitled to continue infringing on MY religious freedom, and that of every other citizen whose congregation WANTS to bless same sex unions, as you do now.

I thought everyone was suppose to be treated equal.

That's the idea. No second-class citizens, even if they're queer.

 

[Autodidact]

Jesus didnt believe in same sex marriage. In Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus tells the Pharisees "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
and said, 'for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Well, that tells me that Jesus opposed divorce. I don't see how you can extrapolate his position regarding same-sex marriage, which He doesn't mention or address.

 

[Autodidact]

One of the problems if we were to legalize gay marriage is that it would actually threaten to take away religious freedoms becasue pastors could get into trouble for discrimination if they refused to marry a gay couple for religious convictions

Please read my next statement very carefully. Your assertion is false. Hate-mongeres have been lying to you. It is irresponsible for you to disseminate this lie without checking it out first. Massachussetts has had same-sex marriage for five years, and not a single pastor has gotten into trouble" for refusing to marry a same-sex couple. This could never happen in the United States, due to the first amendment. Actually, denying same-sex marriage violates freedom of religion, because churches that perform these marriage are denied governmental recognition of marriages that the church performs.

and it may become labeled as "hate speech" for a pastor to teach that homosexuality is a sin, as has happened in Canada.

This has nothing to do with same-sex marriage. This could never happen in the United States, due to the first amendment. Please have some respect for the truth, whatever your personal prejudice may be.

 

[Autodidact]

I thought everyone was suppose to be treated equal. Also just wondering why would it only be considered a hate crime if a person killed a gay person but not if somebody killed a person just based on them being a christian? Arent both of those crimes motivated by hate? Just curious

Is it not your general practice to find out the facts before you develop an opinion? This WOULD be a hate crime; that's the whole point of hate crime laws. btw, is this a common occurrence? Are Christians a despised minority here in the United States?

 

[painted wolf]

Being killed for your religious beliefs is just as much a hate crime as being killed for your sexuality.
No one has ever denied this... that is why religion is already on the list of 'hate crimes'.

wa:do

 

[somebody1982]

Its not equal if the cost of them being able to be married would make it okay to take away religious freedoms from others . Christians are constantly insulted and discriminated against in the workplace and in schools all throughout this country and you dont hear a word about it in the media, except to maybe condone the discrimination. Now Obama wants to try and pass the "Fairness Doctrine", which basically just wants to silence conservative views on the radio. I mean the liberals already dominate the college campuses and the mass media, why are they threatened by any opposing points of view? They dont want people to be critical thinkers. They want them to go to college and indoctrine (oops I mean educate) them with a liberal mindset. They dont encourage critical thinking or opposing points of view. If you dont agree with the teachers point of view, you can be graded down. I know some of you will say that doesnt happen, but I know people its happened to. You shouldnt be graded down based on your own opinion. Liberals are always talking about being "tolerant" when they are the ones who are completely intolerant of having conservative views expressed. Liberals just want to put people in a box and label them as all hateful or bigoted. The reality is that just because I dont agree with their lifestlyle doesnt mean I hate them, just like I dont agree with the lifestyle of someone who is an alcoholic, but I dont hate them because of that.

 

[Storm]

Its not equal if the cost of them being able to be married would make it okay to take away religious freedoms from others

I've already asked you how Christians' religious freedoms would be infringed. You haven't answered. The rest of your post was irrelevant.

 

[gnomon]

Christians are constantly insulted and discriminated against in the workplace and in schools all throughout this country and you dont hear a word about it in the media, except to maybe condone the discrimination.

I hear it every day on FOX news, Rush's radio program or any other number of U.S. media outlets.

Search around the forum. A private religious school tossed some girls because their confusion during puberty over their sexuality (imagine that) and a hug stirred fears of lesbianism. Courts side with the school.

Every Christmas some smug imbecile is preaching about the culture war on Christmas. Christmas as it is belongs to everyone because it was not invented by Christians and it was revived by capitalists and those wanting to party.

The media has been full of pro-Christian messages in this nation from the word go. It's been in the military, in our government, in our schools, in our sports.......everywhere. For just a smidgen of time in this country's history there has been people standing up to what they disagree with in the so called Christian culture in this nation and they can't stand it.

 

[somebody1982]

Well, that tells me that Jesus opposed divorce. I don't see how you can extrapolate his position regarding same-sex marriage, which He doesn't mention or address.

Youre right , Jesus doesnt agree with divorce, but what you can plainly extralolate from His statement is that God designed men to be married to women. Jesus would have considered homosexual behavior an abomination. Any time in the bible where its talking about homosexual behavior its made very clear that God disapproves of it. Its a sexual perversion. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Storm]

Youre right , Jesus doesnt agree with divorce, but what you can plainly extralolate from His statement is that God designed men to be married to women. Jesus would have considered homosexual behavior an abomination. Any time in the bible where its talking about homosexual behavior its made very clear that God disapproves of it. Its a sexual perversion. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

That was Paul, wasn't it? He also said that men can't have long hair and women should sit down and shut up, in defiance of Jesus' teachings. Also, that list includes "revilers," which to my mind includes the anti-gay. That's before you even get into the translation issues. Where does Jesus Himself speak against homosexuality, much less same sex marriage? Prohibiting heterosexual divorce doesn't cut it.

 

[Autodidact]

Its not equal if the cost of them being able to be married would make it okay to take away religious freedoms from others . Christians are constantly insulted and discriminated against in the workplace and in schools all throughout this country and you dont hear a word about it in the media, except to maybe condone the discrimination.

Wait, hold on a minute while I catch my breath from laughing so hard. Oh that's a good one. For a second I thought you were serious.

<snip irrelevant diatribe>[/quote]

Can you cite a single case of a Christian being fired from a job in the United States of America for being a Christian? How about being kicked out of school? A single one? btw, a bunch of Christians kicked two poor girls with a crush out of a Christian school because they were afraid they were lesbians--and the court upheld it.