Saudi cleric says earth doesn't rotate

[shawn001]

What a silly point ?

This is one statement from Nasa

The learners will view the planets in the solar system rotating around the sun. they will also list the types of objects that comprise the solar system.

The Solar System and Beyond | NASA

Orbit and Rotation of the Earth


This animation compares the orbital motion of Mercury with its rotation. Like the Earth, Mercury spins on its axis while orbiting the Sun and both motions are in the counter-clockwise direction as seen from the north poles of either planet. This means that if you were living on the northern hemisphere of either planet, the Sun would rise in the east and set in the west. Unlike the Earth, though, Mercury's spin rate, which affects the length of a solar day, is not much faster than its orbital speed. One full orbit of Mercury (that is, one Mercury year) takes about 88 Earth days, while one rotation of Mercury about its axis takes two-thirds of this period, or about 59 Earth days. That is, for every three revolutions on its axis, Mercury completes two full orbits around the Sun, a relationship that planetary scientists call 3:2 spin-orbit coupling. The combination of these orbital and spin motions also means that a solar day on Mercury,

Orbit / Rotation


This is very cool just in general and shows just how important orbits are and how weird we know they can get with our observations. Meanwhile back on Earth some have accepted the Earth orbits the sun and the moon is in a tidal orbit.


The Moon's Orbit and Rotation
The Earth's Moon is the fifth largest in the whole solar system, and is bigger than the planet Pluto. The Moon has a nearly circular orbit (e=0.05) which is tilted about 5° to the plane of the Earth's orbit. Its average distance from the Earth is 384,400 km. The combination of the Moon's size and its distance from the Earth causes the Moon to appear the same size in the sky as the Sun, which is one reason we can have total solar eclipses.
It takes the Moon 27.322 days to go around the Earth once. Because of this motion, the Moon appears to move about 13° against the stars each day, or about one-half degree per hour. If you watch the Moon over the course of several hours one night, you will notice that its position among the stars will change by a few degrees. The changing position of the Moon with respect to the Sun leads to lunar phases.

Have you ever heard the term the 'far-side' of the Moon? Because of the effect on the Moon of tidal forces due to the Earth, the same side of the moon always faces the Earth. In other words, it takes the Moon the same amount of time to rotate around once as it does for the Moon to go around the Earth once. Therefore, Earth-bound observers can never see the 'far-side' of the Moon. Tidal forces cause many of the moons of our solar system to have this type of orbit.

The Moon's Orbit and Rotation - Windows to the Universe

Not to mention how the moon was formed in the early universe by a massive collision with Earth by a planet the size of Mars.





How the Universe Works Extreme Orbits

 

[Shad]

The expanding heaven is different than the expanse,
The word expanse doesn't mean that the heaven is expanding.

You can't think of the sky as a ceiling and then describe it as "expanding",very simple logic that you don't and won't understand till the day you die.

The sky We have built firmly and We are extending it.(51:47)

Actually the word expanding is only a modern translation. It was never in any translation nor Tasfir until the expanding universe model was developed. It was described as vast, wide, etc. Again you just demonstrate you only know post hoc interpretation of your religion but not traditional views. When a scientific model changes the interpretation of a religion this is called post hoc rationalization which is fallacious thinking.

When you want to talk about logic try to at least know what you are talking about...

 

[Shad]

I read it very well and i realize that the quran doesn't describe the sky as a solid matter.

If the sky is a ceiling then how come that there are 7 heavens, so which ceiling that you're talking about ?

7 Heavens is an ancient concept. In Quran 41 the ordering of Earth then Heaven shows this concept was adapted by Islam but nothing new. The ordering is wrong in the Quran just as it was wrong in other texts. It also shows the geocentric views of the concept since Earth is first created and the reference point of heavens which follow.

 

[FearGod]

Actually the word expanding is only a modern translation. It was never in any translation nor Tasfir until the expanding universe model was developed. It was described as vast, wide, etc. Again you just demonstrate you only know post hoc interpretation of your religion but not traditional views. When a scientific model changes the interpretation of a religion this is called post hoc rationalization which is fallacious thinking.

When you want to talk about logic try to at least know what you are talking about...

I know Arabic very well and hence i can judge which translation is the correct one, (we are expanding it) in Arabic is

The verse in Arabic

Google translation

 

[FearGod]

7 Heavens is an ancient concept. In Quran 41 the ordering of Earth then Heaven shows this concept was adapted by Islam but nothing new. The ordering is wrong in the Quran just as it was wrong in other texts. It also shows the geocentric views of the concept since Earth is first created and the reference point of heavens which follow.

What is the ancient concept and what is your evidence that the quran is having the same concept ?

 

[gnostic]

The expanse is a noun which means a large space of area, how that is the same as to say we are expanding the heaven,why you need to twist words to distort the actual meaning of the verse?

You still haven't grasp that the ancient and medieval people including that of the time, before the telescopes, view the word HEAVEN as only the sky, and what was only observable with naked eye. In every culture or civilizations at that time view, the world was covered by a dome or vault, which is the firmament, firmament equals to heaven or the sky.

They never knew that heaven as being deep space or anything that were beyond what they could see, like distant stars, galaxies, or the whole universe, until the mid-17th century. The Qur'an showed that they knew nothing of the universe, let alone how it work.

The Qur'an doesn't explain anything, about the universe, and only cover what they could see in the sky. This is sky is all of "heaven".

Your problem is that you are confusing heaven with UNIVERSE, but you are putting MODERN concept into verses that have no concept of modern science. You say that you are not twisting words, but the truth is that you are already doing to this when you are trying to mix ancient/medieval writing with modern science. You are trying to fit passage into what is in the Qur'an, but the passage is so open to interpretation, that you are only fooling yourself and fooling naive people who have little background in science.

If you look at the definition for "heaven", using Arabic word, none of the definition will give you "universe". Instead the definition for heaven is "sky", "firmament", "vault", when it is not referring to God's paradise. Heaven has nothing to do with the universe.

The sky doesn't equal to the "universe", but the sky does equal to "heaven", especially in the religious concept of heaven.

Even in the Qur'an it refered heaven to the firmament, hence to the sky.

As I understand it, the Arabic for heaven is سماء, transliterated to Samaa'a, or plural for heavens is سماوات (Samaawat), which is exactly the same for sky سماء and for firmament سماء, hence the "dome". Hence, "sky" = "firmament".

Universe on the other hand is الكون.

Below, are 2 translations of the same verse - 41:12 -
Dr Ghali translation:

So He decreed them as seven heavens in two days, and He revealed in every heaven its Command. And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and (set Angels) preserving them. That is the determining of The Ever-Mighty, The Ever-Knowing.

Yusuf Ali translation:

So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

This clearly indicate that the heaven is the sky, as one would view the sky from the Earth's surface, because the sky = firmament (dome or roof).

So we have heavens السماوات and firmaments, which is also spelt السماوات.

Judging by all of this, I am quite certain that despite not being able to read Arabic, I think I got the gist of the context right.

 

[gnostic]

I know Arabic very well and hence i can judge which translation is the correct one, (we are expanding it) in Arabic is

The verse in Arabic

Google translation

FearGod...why would you look up the word - "expanded"?

That's a verb, a past-tense verb.

If you are going to look up the translations or definitions for heaven, sky, firmament, etc, which are all nouns, then wouldn't it stand to reason you would look up the noun for "expanse", for either definition or translation?

Use google translate, again, but this time, type in "expanse" instead.

And since you think you are so smart, using Google Translate, have you tried to input the term "heaven"?

If you type in "heaven", the first translation you get is سماء, which is:

Translations of heaven
noun

سماء

sky, heaven, blue, empyrean, firmament, vault

الجنة
paradise, heaven, bliss

النعيم
bliss, heaven, happiness

فردوس
paradise, heaven

No where does it say "universe".

And if you bother to read the (2nd) definition for heaven, you will get what I am saying all along:

Definitions of heaven
noun

the sky, especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated.
"Galileo used a telescope to observe the heavens"
synonyms: the sky, the skies, the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, space, the firmament, the vault of heaven, the blue, the (wild/wide) blue yonder, the welkin, the empyrean, the azure, the upper regions, the sphere, the celestial sphere

Because Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages, the Arabic transliteration of heaven سماء is "Samaa'a", is similar to the Hebrew transliteration שמים, which is "shamayim".

Using Google Translate for English-Hebrew heaven, we get:

גַן עֶדֶן
paradise, heaven, Eden, Elysium

שָׁמַיִם

sky, heaven, firmament


רָקִיעַ

sky, ductile, heaven, firmament, expanse, canopy

שְׁחָקִים
heaven

Pay attention to the the 2nd and 3rd translations, above.

The 2nd translation to heaven (שָׁמַיִם) is both define as sky and firmament, but the 3rd translation (רָקִיעַ), not only define heaven as sky and firmament, but also to "expanse" and "canopy".

Do you remember my post 87, about the translation of verse 51:47? You had complained that the translation for heaven, used the word "roof". Not just one translation use "roof", but 3 of them that I could find - Pickthall, Muhsin Khan and Dr Ghali. The Yusif Ali and Shakir translations used "canopy". And "ceiling" was used the Sahih International translation.

Now, I wouldn't use word like "canopy" or "roof" or "expanse" for sky, but these words are frequently used in versed text, archaic and often poetic word for sky.

Why do you complain about the word "roof" or "ceiling" for sky or heaven?

You are complaining because you are using the word too literally.

Verse text, like the Qur'an often used metaphor to describe things, though a better word would be simile. If you look at my last post, where I had quoted from Qur'an 41:12 about the 7 heavens, it used word like "lamps" for "stars". Clearly stars are not "lamps", which is grossly inaccurate, and yet the translators use "lamps".

What I find silly about 41:12 is that why would the stars ("lamps") need "guard". I am assuming that "guard" mean "angel". Do stars need angels to guard them?

 

[Shad]

I know Arabic very well and hence i can judge which translation is the correct one, (we are expanding it) in Arabic is

The verse in Arabic

Google translation

Congratulation you can use Google translate. Now go look up the word in a lexicon, you will notice the words vast, wide, extend, etc also fall under the word. Go look at English translation before 1920, none use the word expand. Go look at translations after 1920, suddenly the word used is expand... Why 1920? 1920 is when the expanding universe model was being developed. Hence post hoc rationalization

 

[Shad]

What is the ancient concept and what is your evidence that the quran is having the same concept ?

Go look up the 7 heavens.

From the Talmud, which predates the Quran.

"There are seven heavens one above the other: (1) Velon [Latin, velum, "curtain"], which is rolled up and down to enable the sun to go in and out; according to Isa. xl. 22, 'He stretched out the heavens as a curtain'; (2) Raḳi'a, the place where the sun, moon, and stars are fixed (Gen. i. 17]; (3) Sheḥakim, in which are the millstones to grind [shaḥak] manna for the righteous (Ps. lxxviii. 23; comp. Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7]; (4) Zebul, the upper Jerusalem, with its Temple, in which Michael offers the sacrifice at the altar [Isa. lxiii. 15; I Kings, viii. 13]; (5) Ma'on. in which dwell the classes of ministering angels who sing by night and are silent by day, for the honor of Israel who serve the Lord in daytime [Deut. xxvi. 15, Ps. xlii. 9]; (6) Makon, in which are the treasuries of snow and hail, the chambers of dew, rain, and mist behind doors of fire [1 Kings, vii. 30; Deut. xxviii. 12]; (7) 'Arabot, where justice and righteousness, the treasures of life and of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the dew of resurrection are to be found. There are the ofanim, the seraphim, and the ḥayyot of holiness, the ministering angels and the throne of glory; and over them is enthroned the great King"

Maimonides, in his "Yad ha-Ḥazaḳah, Yesode ha-Torah," ii., counts ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest:

(1) Ḥayyot; (2) ofanim; (3) arelim [

from

, Isa. xxxiii. 7]; (4) ḥashmallim [Ezek. i. 4], explained in Ḥag. 13b as ḥayyot, who are sometimes silent [ḥash], and who sometimes speak [mallel]—they are silent when the word emanates from the Holy One, blessed be He! they speak when he has ceased speaking; (5) seraphim; (6) malakim, "angels"; (7) elohim or godly beings; (8) bene Elohim, "sons of God"; (9) cherubim, "like blooming youth," Ḳarabia [Ḥag. 13b]; (10) ishim, "manlike beings" [Dan. x. 5]. See Rapoport on Maimonides' "Maämar ha-Yiḥud," ed. Steinschneider, p. 10; Jellinek, "Beiträge zur Kabbala," p. 61, note; Bacher, "Bibelexegese Moses Maimuni's," p. 69.

The cabalists (Zohar, Exodus, 43) have a different list:

(1) Arelim, with Michael as chief; (2) ishim, with Zephaniah as chief; (3) bene Elohim, with Hofniel as chief; (4) malakim, with Uriel as chief; (5) ḥashmallim, with Ḥashmal as chief; (6) tarshishim, with Tarshish as chief [after Dan. x. 6; see Ḥul. 91b]; (7) shinannim, with Ẓadḳiel as chief [after Ps. lxviii. 18]; (8) cherubim, with Cherub as chief; (9) ofanim, with Raphael as chief; (10) seraphim, with Jehoel as chief.

Still more elaborate is the description of the seven heavens with their angelic chiefs, and of the twelve degrees of angels instead of ten, in "Sode Raza," quoted in Yalḳ. Reubeni to Gen. i. 1.

In "Maseket Aẓilut" the ten ranks of angels are given in the following order:

(1) Seraphim, with Shemuel [Ḳemuel] or Jehoel as chief; (2) ofanim, with Raphael and Ofaniel as chiefs; (3) cherubim, with Cherubiel as chief; (4) shinannim, with Ẓedeḳiel and Gabriel as chiefs; (5) tarshishim, with Tarshish and Sabriel as chiefs; (6) ishim, with Zephaniel as chief; (7) ḥashmallim, with Ḥashmal as chief; (8) malakim, with Uzziel as chief; (9) bene Elohim, with Ḥofniel as chief; (10) arelim, with Michael as chief.

These are the ten archangels that were created first; and over them is set Meṭaṭron-Enoch, transformed from flesh and blood into flaming fire.

Of the vastness of the armies of heaven the following description is given by R. Simon b. Laḳish:

"There are twelve mazzalot ["signs of the zodiac"], each having thirty armies; each army, thirty camps [

= castra]; each camp, thirty legions [compare Matt. xxvi. 53]; each legion, thirty cohorts; each cohort, thirty corps [compare Krauss, "Lehnwörter," s.v.

]; and each corps has 365,000 myriads of stars entrusted to it" (Berach, 32b).

"When Moses went up in the cloud to heaven, Ḳemuel, the janitor of the first gate, with 12,000 angels of destruction under him, went to strike him, but succumbed. As he arrived at the second gate, Hadraniel, who exceeded the former 600,000 parasangs in length, came with his darts of fire to smite him, but God interfered. Finally, he came to the precincts of Sandalfon, the angel who towers above the rest by the length of 500 years' journey, and who when standing on earth reaches with his head up to the ḥayyot. Standing behind the heavenly chariot, he weaves crowns for the Most High, while all the hosts of heaven sing, 'Blessed be the glory of the Lord from His place.' Before his fire even Hadraniel trembled; but Moses passed him also, the Lord shielding him. Then Moses came to the stream of fire which consumes even the angels; and God caused him to pass through unscathed. Next came Galiẓur ["Revealer of the Rock"], also called Raziel ["The Secret of God"], or Akraziel [

= κῆρνξ "the herald of God"], the angel who spreads his wings over theḥayyot, lest their fiery breath consume the ministering angels. Finally, the troop of the mighty angels standing around the throne of glory threatened to consume Moses by the breath of their mouth: but Moses seized the throne of glory; and the Lord spread His cloud over him [according to Job, xxvi. 9], and he received the Law despite the protesting angels" (Pesiḳ. R. xx., ed. Friedmann, pp. 96b, 98a; see editor's notes).

This ascension of Moses is described more elaborately in the Shir ha-Shirim Rabba fragment, ed. Wertheimer, "Bate Midrashot," iv., Jerusalem, 1897 (compare with this the Hekalot in Jellinek, "B. H." ii. 41-46, iii. 94f, v. 170-190, vi. 110-111; also Merkabah de-R. Yishmael in Wertheimer, "Bate Midrashot," i., Jerusalem, 1893; and Jellinek's introduction to each of the treatises).

Look up Svarga in Hindu cosmology. In Babylonia mythology the Seven Heavens were identified with the 7 known planets which becomes the Seven Earths in the Quran

 

[FearGod]

Congratulation you can use Google translate. Now go look up the word in a lexicon, you will notice the words vast, wide, extend, etc also fall under the word. Go look at English translation before 1920, none use the word expand. Go look at translations after 1920, suddenly the word used is expand... Why 1920? 1920 is when the expanding universe model was being developed. Hence post hoc rationalization

That is a stupid comment indeed.

The word

is a verb which means one thing and which is expanding, i don't see a problem if you want to think it otherwise, but if you think that the Arab world had changed the meaning of the word for a purpose then that is even more than stupid as to think of it in such way.

 

[FearGod]

Go look up the 7 heavens.

From the Talmud, which predates the Quran.

"There are seven heavens one above the other: (1) Velon [Latin, velum, "curtain"], which is rolled up and down to enable the sun to go in and out; according to Isa. xl. 22, 'He stretched out the heavens as a curtain'; (2) Raḳi'a, the place where the sun, moon, and stars are fixed (Gen. i. 17]; (3) Sheḥakim, in which are the millstones to grind [shaḥak] manna for the righteous (Ps. lxxviii. 23; comp. Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7]; (4) Zebul, the upper Jerusalem, with its Temple, in which Michael offers the sacrifice at the altar [Isa. lxiii. 15; I Kings, viii. 13]; (5) Ma'on. in which dwell the classes of ministering angels who sing by night and are silent by day, for the honor of Israel who serve the Lord in daytime [Deut. xxvi. 15, Ps. xlii. 9]; (6) Makon, in which are the treasuries of snow and hail, the chambers of dew, rain, and mist behind doors of fire [1 Kings, vii. 30; Deut. xxviii. 12]; (7) 'Arabot, where justice and righteousness, the treasures of life and of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the dew of resurrection are to be found. There are the ofanim, the seraphim, and the ḥayyot of holiness, the ministering angels and the throne of glory; and over them is enthroned the great King"

Maimonides, in his "Yad ha-Ḥazaḳah, Yesode ha-Torah," ii., counts ten ranks of angels, beginning from the highest:

(1) Ḥayyot; (2) ofanim; (3) arelim [

from

, Isa. xxxiii. 7]; (4) ḥashmallim [Ezek. i. 4], explained in Ḥag. 13b as ḥayyot, who are sometimes silent [ḥash], and who sometimes speak [mallel]—they are silent when the word emanates from the Holy One, blessed be He! they speak when he has ceased speaking; (5) seraphim; (6) malakim, "angels"; (7) elohim or godly beings; (8) bene Elohim, "sons of God"; (9) cherubim, "like blooming youth," Ḳarabia [Ḥag. 13b]; (10) ishim, "manlike beings" [Dan. x. 5]. See Rapoport on Maimonides' "Maämar ha-Yiḥud," ed. Steinschneider, p. 10; Jellinek, "Beiträge zur Kabbala," p. 61, note; Bacher, "Bibelexegese Moses Maimuni's," p. 69.

The cabalists (Zohar, Exodus, 43) have a different list:

(1) Arelim, with Michael as chief; (2) ishim, with Zephaniah as chief; (3) bene Elohim, with Hofniel as chief; (4) malakim, with Uriel as chief; (5) ḥashmallim, with Ḥashmal as chief; (6) tarshishim, with Tarshish as chief [after Dan. x. 6; see Ḥul. 91b]; (7) shinannim, with Ẓadḳiel as chief [after Ps. lxviii. 18]; (8) cherubim, with Cherub as chief; (9) ofanim, with Raphael as chief; (10) seraphim, with Jehoel as chief.

Still more elaborate is the description of the seven heavens with their angelic chiefs, and of the twelve degrees of angels instead of ten, in "Sode Raza," quoted in Yalḳ. Reubeni to Gen. i. 1.

In "Maseket Aẓilut" the ten ranks of angels are given in the following order:

(1) Seraphim, with Shemuel [Ḳemuel] or Jehoel as chief; (2) ofanim, with Raphael and Ofaniel as chiefs; (3) cherubim, with Cherubiel as chief; (4) shinannim, with Ẓedeḳiel and Gabriel as chiefs; (5) tarshishim, with Tarshish and Sabriel as chiefs; (6) ishim, with Zephaniel as chief; (7) ḥashmallim, with Ḥashmal as chief; (8) malakim, with Uzziel as chief; (9) bene Elohim, with Ḥofniel as chief; (10) arelim, with Michael as chief.

These are the ten archangels that were created first; and over them is set Meṭaṭron-Enoch, transformed from flesh and blood into flaming fire.

Of the vastness of the armies of heaven the following description is given by R. Simon b. Laḳish:

"There are twelve mazzalot ["signs of the zodiac"], each having thirty armies; each army, thirty camps [

= castra]; each camp, thirty legions [compare Matt. xxvi. 53]; each legion, thirty cohorts; each cohort, thirty corps [compare Krauss, "Lehnwörter," s.v.

]; and each corps has 365,000 myriads of stars entrusted to it" (Berach, 32b).

"When Moses went up in the cloud to heaven, Ḳemuel, the janitor of the first gate, with 12,000 angels of destruction under him, went to strike him, but succumbed. As he arrived at the second gate, Hadraniel, who exceeded the former 600,000 parasangs in length, came with his darts of fire to smite him, but God interfered. Finally, he came to the precincts of Sandalfon, the angel who towers above the rest by the length of 500 years' journey, and who when standing on earth reaches with his head up to the ḥayyot. Standing behind the heavenly chariot, he weaves crowns for the Most High, while all the hosts of heaven sing, 'Blessed be the glory of the Lord from His place.' Before his fire even Hadraniel trembled; but Moses passed him also, the Lord shielding him. Then Moses came to the stream of fire which consumes even the angels; and God caused him to pass through unscathed. Next came Galiẓur ["Revealer of the Rock"], also called Raziel ["The Secret of God"], or Akraziel [

= κῆρνξ "the herald of God"], the angel who spreads his wings over theḥayyot, lest their fiery breath consume the ministering angels. Finally, the troop of the mighty angels standing around the throne of glory threatened to consume Moses by the breath of their mouth: but Moses seized the throne of glory; and the Lord spread His cloud over him [according to Job, xxvi. 9], and he received the Law despite the protesting angels" (Pesiḳ. R. xx., ed. Friedmann, pp. 96b, 98a; see editor's notes).

This ascension of Moses is described more elaborately in the Shir ha-Shirim Rabba fragment, ed. Wertheimer, "Bate Midrashot," iv., Jerusalem, 1897 (compare with this the Hekalot in Jellinek, "B. H." ii. 41-46, iii. 94f, v. 170-190, vi. 110-111; also Merkabah de-R. Yishmael in Wertheimer, "Bate Midrashot," i., Jerusalem, 1893; and Jellinek's introduction to each of the treatises).

Look up Svarga in Hindu cosmology. In Babylonia mythology the Seven Heavens were identified with the 7 known planets which becomes the Seven Earths in the Quran

I asked you what is your evidence that the quran is referring the seven heavens as to be the same as to the ancient concept.
How seven skies means 7 planets and if the sky is a ceiling then how it means 7 planets, your argument is so stupid.

 

[FearGod]

Your problem is that you are confusing heaven with UNIVERSE, but you are putting MODERN concept into verses that have no concept of modern science. You say that you are not twisting words, but the truth is that you are already doing to this when you are trying to mix ancient/medieval writing with modern science. You are trying to fit passage into what is in the Qur'an, but the passage is so open to interpretation, that you are only fooling yourself and fooling naive people who have little background in science.

If you look at the definition for "heaven", using Arabic word, none of the definition will give you "universe". Instead the definition for heaven is "sky", "firmament", "vault", when it is not referring to God's paradise. Heaven has nothing to do with the universe.

The sky doesn't equal to the "universe", but the sky does equal to "heaven", especially in the religious concept of heaven.

Even in the Qur'an it refered heaven to the firmament, hence to the sky.

Yes the sky is the one expanding and sky is the space and not the universe, there is no word for universe in the quran, الكون which is translated as universe, in Arabic it means all existing things and that is different than the skies which is a part of a whole

As I understand it, the Arabic for heaven is سماء, transliterated to Samaa'a, or plural for heavens is سماوات (Samaawat), which is exactly the same for sky سماء and for firmament سماء, hence the "dome". Hence, "sky" = "firmament".

You said that the sky is the expanse then how it is a solid dome.

Universe on the other hand is الكون.

I didn't speak about the universe but about the sky "space"

Below, are 2 translations of the same verse - 41:12 -
Dr Ghali translation:

​

Yusuf Ali translation:

​

This clearly indicate that the heaven is the sky, as one would view the sky from the Earth's surface, because the sky = firmament (dome or roof).

So we have heavens السماوات and firmaments, which is also spelt السماوات.

Judging by all of this, I am quite certain that despite not being able to read Arabic, I think I got the gist of the context right.

Yes of course it's about the sky, did i say otherwise ?

 

[FearGod]

FearGod...why would you look up the word - "expanded"?

That's a verb, a past-tense verb.

If you are going to look up the translations or definitions for heaven, sky, firmament, etc, which are all nouns, then wouldn't it stand to reason you would look up the noun for "expanse", for either definition or translation?

Use google translate, again, but this time, type in "expanse" instead.

And since you think you are so smart, using Google Translate, have you tried to input the term "heaven"?

If you type in "heaven", the first translation you get is سماء, which is:


No where does it say "universe".

And if you bother to read the (2nd) definition for heaven, you will get what I am saying all along:


Because Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages, the Arabic transliteration of heaven سماء is "Samaa'a", is similar to the Hebrew transliteration שמים, which is "shamayim".

Using Google Translate for English-Hebrew heaven, we get:


Pay attention to the the 2nd and 3rd translations, above.

The 2nd translation to heaven (שָׁמַיִם) is both define as sky and firmament, but the 3rd translation (רָקִיעַ), not only define heaven as sky and firmament, but also to "expanse" and "canopy".

Do you remember my post 87, about the translation of verse 51:47? You had complained that the translation for heaven, used the word "roof". Not just one translation use "roof", but 3 of them that I could find - Pickthall, Muhsin Khan and Dr Ghali. The Yusif Ali and Shakir translations used "canopy". And "ceiling" was used the Sahih International translation.

Now, I wouldn't use word like "canopy" or "roof" or "expanse" for sky, but these words are frequently used in versed text, archaic and often poetic word for sky.

Why do you complain about the word "roof" or "ceiling" for sky or heaven?

You are complaining because you are using the word too literally.

Verse text, like the Qur'an often used metaphor to describe things, though a better word would be simile. If you look at my last post, where I had quoted from Qur'an 41:12 about the 7 heavens, it used word like "lamps" for "stars". Clearly stars are not "lamps", which is grossly inaccurate, and yet the translators use "lamps".

What I find silly about 41:12 is that why would the stars ("lamps") need "guard". I am assuming that "guard" mean "angel". Do stars need angels to guard them?

Please concentrate a little bit, just relax and drink one cup of coffee and re-read my previous posts.

 

[Shad]

That is a stupid comment indeed.

The word

is a verb which means one thing and which is expanding, i don't see a problem if you want to think it otherwise, but if you think that the Arab world had changed the meaning of the word for a purpose then that is even more than stupid as to think of it in such way.

The translation were changed in an ad hoc manner. Look up pre 1920-30 translations. Also you have to equivocate that wal-samaa means universe rather than heavens. This causes issues with verses about 7 heavens. So are there 7 universes that are expanding as well?

Interesting, expand is only the 7th definition

Again more definitions... funny how you didn't include the other definitions. After all this is Google translate.

Go look up the word in Lane's Lexicon.
studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000306.pdf
studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000307.pdf

Even more definitions

 

[Shad]

I asked you what is your evidence that the quran is referring the seven heavens as to be the same as to the ancient concept.
How seven skies means 7 planets and if the sky is a ceiling then how it means 7 planets, your argument is so stupid.

Nope I provided evidence that the concept of 7 heavens was already in place before Islam. Islam just modified an existing idea. The concept was not newly developed.

We have heavens in which different celestial objects are placed. The moon, stars and sun for example in the Quran. Spiritual objects in the heavens like the Jinn being shot down by shot down by stars in the lowest heaven in Islam. Which is right in my commen. The detail differ but the idea remains the same.

In Quran 65:12 we have 7 Earths. During this time classical astronomy have 7 celestial objects. Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn

Classification of the Planets
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/downloads/Enuma_Anu_Enlil.pdf

There are seven heavens one above the other: (1) Velon [Latin, velum, "curtain"], which is rolled up and down to enable the sun to go in and out; according to Isa. xl. 22, 'He stretched out the heavens as a curtain'; (2) Raḳi'a, the place where the sun, moon, and stars are fixed (Gen. i. 17]; (3) Sheḥakim, in which are the millstones to grind [shaḥak] manna for the righteous (Ps. lxxviii. 23; comp. Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7]; (4) Zebul, the upper Jerusalem, with its Temple, in which Michael offers the sacrifice at the altar [Isa. lxiii. 15; I Kings, viii. 13]; (5) Ma'on. in which dwell the classes of ministering angels who sing by night and are silent by day, for the honor of Israel who serve the Lord in daytime [Deut. xxvi. 15, Ps. xlii. 9]; (6) Makon, in which are the treasuries of snow and hail, the chambers of dew, rain, and mist behind doors of fire [1 Kings, vii. 30; Deut. xxviii. 12]; (7) 'Arabot, where justice and righteousness, the treasures of life and of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the dew of resurrection are to be found. There are the ofanim, the seraphim, and the ḥayyot of holiness, the ministering angels and the throne of glory; and over them is enthroned the great King"

Maybe read what I posted.

 

[FearGod]

Nope I provided evidence that the concept of 7 heavens was already in place before Islam. Islam just modified an existing idea. The concept was not newly developed.

We have heavens in which different celestial objects are placed. The moon, stars and sun for example in the Quran. Spiritual objects in the heavens like the Jinn being shot down by shot down by stars in the lowest heaven in Islam. Which is right in my commen. The detail differ but the idea remains the same.

In Quran 65:12 we have 7 Earths. During this time classical astronomy have 7 celestial objects. Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn

Classification of the Planets



Maybe read what I posted.

How the heaven is the solid ceiling then the heaven also is the space where planets are floating ?
Don't you see how stupid the way you think ?

 

[FearGod]

The translation were changed in an ad hoc manner. Look up pre 1920-30 translations. Also you have to equivocate that wal-samaa means universe rather than heavens. This causes issues with verses about 7 heavens. So are there 7 universes that are expanding as well?

Interesting, expand is only the 7th definition

Again more definitions... funny how you didn't include the other definitions. After all this is Google translate.

Go look up the word in Lane's Lexicon.
studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000306.pdf
studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000307.pdf

Even more definitions

يوسع is a verb which means making thing get larger in space and become more spacious, check for spacious and the derivative of يوسع which is واسع
I think you need to study Arabic from the elementary school till college to reach my knowledge in the Arabic language.

??????? ?? Google

 

[Shad]

How the heaven is the solid ceiling then the heaven also is the space where planets are floating ?
Don't you see how stupid the way you think ?

It is due the contradictions within the quran when it talks about various ideas. I did not say it was a roof, your prophet and holy book did. It is also due to equivocation of words by it's adherence. Heaven means sky, universe, whatever you want it to mean.

Quran 21:32And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

Quran 31:10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

Quran 2:22 Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

Quran 78:19 And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

Quran 82:1-2 When the Sky is cleft asunder When the stars fall, losing their luster.

Quran 69:16 And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will That day be flimsy (soft)

 

[Shad]

يوسع is a verb which means making thing get larger in space and become more spacious, check for spacious and the derivative of يوسع which is واسع
I think you need to study Arabic from the elementary school till college to reach my knowledge in the Arabic language.

??????? ?? Google

banaynaaha (بَنَيْنَٰهَا) is past tense. So all it says is Allah made heaven wide, not that he continues to do so. So the verb action is complete not current. Verbs are past tense as well, maybe you should spend more time on grimmer if you think a verb is only present tense or regular.


{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون، من الوسع وهو الطاقة. والموسع: القوى على الإنفاق. وعن الحسن: لموسعون الرزق بالمطر. وقيل: جعلنا بينها وبين الأرض سعة
(Innaa la-moosi'oon) Indeed we are able, from capacity/power (Wus' وسع), which is power/capacity and The Moosi' is the one who possesses great means/ability to give/provide. Al-Hasan narrated: Indeed he gives/provides (La-Moosi'oon) sustenance through the rain (he sends down). It is also said that we made spaciousness سعة between it (heavens) and the earth.

tafseer of al-Zamakhshari.

Notice the view is not that it is currently happening but Allah is able to.

Standard Arabic is not classical Arabic, your mistaken to think that this means you are qualified in classical Arabic.

 

[FearGod]

It is due the contradictions within the quran when it talks about various ideas. I did not say it was a roof, your prophet and holy book did. It is also due to equivocation of words by it's adherence. Heaven means sky, universe, whatever you want it to mean.

Quran 21:32And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

Yes our sky is acting as a protecting ceiling.

Quran 31:10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

Yes it's about the gravitational forces and how things were kept fixed in their places.

Quran 2:22 Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy.

بِنَاءً does never mean canopy, but a construction.

Quran 78:19 And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

And do you think that a ceiling can have doors or that a canopy can have doors in its ceiling, the sky will be our gateways to the next life,the afterlife which you don't believe in and won't believe in.

Quran 82:1-2 When the Sky is cleft asunder When the stars fall, losing their luster.

It's about the end of times when everything will collapse and all planets will lose their fixed positions.

Quran 69:16 And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will That day be flimsy (soft)

At the end of times, the construction of heavens will collapse.