Saudi cleric says earth doesn't rotate

[FearGod]

Make a better effort next time so you do not waste your time. Learn to back statement with citations that do not contradict your view. Learn how gravity works. Those methods are much more useful then clueless miracle seeking.

Even replying on your silly comment is a waste of time, your arguments were kind of lies and rubbish and proceeding in debating with a person who's completely ignorant in Arabic is kind of farce.

 

[Shad]

Even replying on your silly comment is a waste of time, your arguments were kind of lies and rubbish and proceeding in debating with a person who's completely ignorant in Arabic is kind of farce.

I am not the one that linked multiple translations of the Quran with the parameter of "acceptable" which contained verses supporting my view that the word does not solely mean expand. I am not the one that presented verses with dating which shows the shift from a set of definitions to another all ad hoc to the expanding verse model. All while contradicting the view you claim is correct that the word means expand only. I linked lexicons while you linked nothing but Google translate. Let see who is ignorant of Arabic. The lexicons and citation provided by both of us that agree with my view or your view which is contradicted by your own sources...

I guess putting an effort into supporting your view is a waste of time right? After all if someone can not accept an anonymous persons view backed by nothing why bother right? Lexicons lies, your own sources lie, everyone lies right?

Great non-argument you have there.

 

[FearGod]

I am not the one that linked multiple translations of the Quran with the parameter of "acceptable" which contained verses supporting my view that the word does not solely mean expand. I am not the one that presented verses with dating which shows the shift from a set of definitions to another all ad hoc to the expanding verse model. All while contradicting the view you claim is correct that the word means expand only. I linked lexicons while you linked nothing but Google translate. Let see who is ignorant of Arabic. The lexicons and citation provided by both of us that agree with my view or your view which is contradicted by your own sources...

I guess putting an effort into supporting your view is a waste of time right? After all if someone can not accept an anonymous persons view backed by nothing why bother right? Lexicons lies, your own sources lie, everyone lies right?

I showed you the original text of Ibn Kathir and how he interpreted the verse before 800 years as to mean the expanding of space, and your reply were kind of bla...bla....bla.
OK, i have to put an end for this rubbish, you're now in my ignore list, so don't expect any more replies from me, good luck.

 

[Shad]

I showed you the original text of Ibn Kathir and how he interpreted the verse before 800 years as to mean the expanding of space, and your reply were kind of bla...bla....bla.
OK, i have to put an end for this rubbish, you're now in my ignore list, so don't expect any more replies from me, good luck.

And I showed you multiple translations showing the verse is past tense and god is able to rather than doing a current action from the work of Ibn Kathir. Funny how there is a supposed tradition when the only one putting forward this view is you. None of the author's I linked state this, in fact they state what I have been saying the whole time. You linked me something in Arabic. I translated it, I confirmed the translations with other sources. Both disagree with your claim, simple as that. Even your ever so useful Google translate say it is about the sky not the universe. So again this is evidence of your equivocation of words to suit your miracle seeking views

 

[David M]

Again the quran doesn't mention the geocentric or the heliocentric model, the verse says all of them are moving, so earth isn't stationary according to the quran which is opposing the geocentric model.

No its doesn't. It says that day, night, sun and moon (and other celestial bodies) are not stationary. You are adding the earth into that list because you want to claim that Quran is heliocentric rather than geocentric.

 

[gnostic]

No its doesn't. It says that day, night, sun and moon (and other celestial bodies) are not stationary. You are adding the earth into that list because you want to claim that Quran is heliocentric rather than geocentric.

That's what I have been trying to explain to them, but they don't comprehend.

Both union and feargod are trying imply something into the passage that it never say.

It only say that night and day move, not the Earth, and that the sun and moon across the sky. No where does it say the earth move in rotational motion. And nothing in the passage say that the earth is orbiting the sun.

I think it is trying to say the same thing that Genesis 1:16, in which

1. one light dominate the day, hence the Sun,
2. while the other light dominate the night, hence the moon.

This is why the Qur'an 21: 33 mentioned "night and day" first, before the sun and moon.

 

[FearGod]

No its doesn't. It says that day, night, sun and moon (and other celestial bodies) are not stationary. You are adding the earth into that list because you want to claim that Quran is heliocentric rather than geocentric.

The quran mentioned that the earth is moving in verse 79:30, but you need to understand Arabic yourself than reading what the others had translated and interpreted and also rotation mentioned in verse 77:25

 

[gnostic]

The quran mentioned that the earth is moving in verse 79:30,

Are you kidding? All the verse say that God spread or expand the earth (whatever the hell that mean), but nothing about the Earth itself moving. Nothing about it rotating and nothing about it orbiting.

but you need to understand Arabic yourself than reading what the others had translated and interpreted and also rotation mentioned in verse 77:25

These are the times, when i wish they have the old smilies, because I could use a faceplam right now.

Like the other verse, it say nothing about "rotating". Where on earth do you get the idea there is any rotating motion on either verse.

They use words like "spread", "expand", "extend", "flattened" (in 79:30) and "made", "draw together" (in 77:25), none of which can define as "rotate" or "spin", "turn around", etc.

I am looking at 6 different English translations in both verses, and none of context of any rotational motion. I have highlighted all the verbs in red and bold.

Sahih International
And after that He spread the earth.

Muhsin Khan
And after that He spread the earth;

Pickthall
And after that He spread the earth,

Yusuf Ali
And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

Shakir
And the earth, He expanded it after that.

Dr. Ghali
And the earth, after that He flattened it (for life).

Sahih International
Have We not made the earth a container

Muhsin Khan
Have We not made the earth a receptacle?

Pickthall
Have We not made the earth a receptacle

Yusuf Ali
Have We not made the earth (as a place) to draw together.

Shakir
Have We not made the earth to draw together to itself,

Dr. Ghali
Have We not made the earth a receptacle.

What does 77:25 even mean, by not making the earth a "receptacle"? "Receptacle" for what?

Receptacle mean "container". So it (77:25) is utterly meaningless, and the surrounding verses (77:24 and 77:26) don't help in any way in understanding the verse. It certainly doesn't mean the Earth is "rotating".

Like I said before, you are trying to twist around the words or verses so they mean something that it doesn't say or mean. You are giving totally different meaning to those verses that you have cited.

Whatever you may think or believe, "expand" doesn't mean "rotate"; nor does "extend". And "flatten" doesn't mean "rotate".

 

[David M]

The quran mentioned that the earth is moving in verse 79:30, but you need to understand Arabic yourself than reading what the others had translated and interpreted and also rotation mentioned in verse 77:25

As gnostic has pointed out, it says no such thing.

 

[FearGod]

Are you kidding? All the verse say that God spread or expand the earth (whatever the hell that mean), but nothing about the Earth itself moving. Nothing about it rotating and nothing about it orbiting.


These are the times, when i wish they have the old smilies, because I could use a faceplam right now.

Like the other verse, it say nothing about "rotating". Where on earth do you get the idea there is any rotating motion on either verse.

They use words like "spread", "expand", "extend", "flattened" (in 79:30) and "made", "draw together" (in 77:25), none of which can define as "rotate" or "spin", "turn around", etc.

I am looking at 6 different English translations in both verses, and none of context of any rotational motion. I have highlighted all the verbs in red and bold.





What does 77:25 even mean, by not making the earth a "receptacle"? "Receptacle" for what?

Receptacle mean "container". So it (77:25) is utterly meaningless, and the surrounding verses (77:24 and 77:26) don't help in any way in understanding the verse. It certainly doesn't mean the Earth is "rotating".

Like I said before, you are trying to twist around the words or verses so they mean something that it doesn't say or mean. You are giving totally different meaning to those verses that you have cited.

Whatever you may think or believe, "expand" doesn't mean "rotate"; nor does "extend". And "flatten" or does mean "rotate".

You have to investigate the meaning of the words yourself to understand the actual meaning of the verses.

For verse (77:25) the word used is كِفَاتًا which means turning thing upside down, i wonder if you know an Arabic food recipe which is called كفتة and it is made by rotating the meat on a skewer.

معنى كَفَت في المعجم الوسيط الشيءُ ـِ كَفْتاً: تقلَّب ظهراً لبطن وبطناً لظهر. وـ الطائرُ وغيره: أسرع في الطير وتقبَّض فيه. وـ فلاناً: صرفه عن وجهه. وـ الشيء وإليه: ضمّه إلى نفسه. وـ المتاع: جمعه وضمّ بعضه إلى بعض. وـ ذيله: شمَّره. وـ الله فلاناً: قبضه.( كَفَّتَ ) الشيء، وإليه: ضمَّه. وـ الدّرع بالسيف: علَّقها به فضمّها إليه.( اكْتَفَتَ ) المال: استوعبه أجمع.( انْكَفَتَ ) الرجل: اجتمع خلقه. وـ
معاجم اللغة العربية : معنى و شرح كلمة كفاتا : قاموس عربي عربي

For verse (79:30) the word دحا means to throw a thing and make it to roll يتدحرج similar to the statement دحا الخباز العجينة which means the baker rolled the dough
http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/دحا/

 

[gnostic]

Had any of the translators known that any of the two passages passages (79:30 and 77:25) meant "rotate", "spin", "roll" or "turn", as the original context of those passages, don't you think they would have use one of those words.

I have given you 6 translation from the Noble Qur'an website. All of them use the verb "not made", which has nothing to do with "turn" or "roll". Four of them say that the Earth is not "receptacle" or "container", only two of them (Yusuf Ali and Shakir translations) didn't write that; instead they say "draw together".

So "draw together" doesn't mean rotate, no matter how I look at it.

Wouldn't it better, if they used the Arabic "rotate" (تناوب) if that's what those verses mean? Why didn't they?

Instead I have you changing the whole meaning of the verse that don't any way match of the 6 translations that I had used.

If 6 translators couldn't use the word "rotate", "spin", "turn" or "roll", then perhaps you got the context wrong.

 

[FearGod]

Had any of the translators known that any of the two passages passages (79:30 and 77:25) meant "rotate", "spin", "roll" or "turn", as the original context of those passages, don't you think they would have use one of those words.

I have given you 6 translation from the Noble Qur'an website. All of them use the verb "not made", which has nothing to do with "turn" or "roll". Four of them say that the Earth is not "receptacle" or "container", only two of them (Yusuf Ali and Shakir translations) didn't write that; instead they say "draw together".

So "draw together" doesn't mean rotate, no matter how I look at it.

Wouldn't it better, if they used the Arabic "rotate" (تناوب) if that's what those verses mean? Why didn't they?

Instead I have you changing the whole meaning of the verse that don't any way match of the 6 translations that I had used.

If 6 translators couldn't use the word "rotate", "spin", "turn" or "roll", then perhaps you got the context wrong.

You mean why not using تدور and not تناوب , as the word تناوب means alternating positions or shifting such as shifting between day and night تناوب الليل والنهار , the word "تناوب" is also used as shifting at work such as the day shift and the night shift, for دحا it doesn't mean roll but it means the force applied that cause thing to roll, for example "دحا الحجر" he caused the stone to roll forward.

 

[shawn001]

Digital Orrery

Dynamic Flash showing Planetary Motion in the Solar System. The date can be set and Positions Observed. There are two Views or Modes Sun Based Copernican view and Earth Centric Tychonian view.

Planets Orrery - Dact Apps for an Engineer or Hobbyist