Saved to what end?

[Nietzsche]

Meine Formel für die Grösse am Menschen ist amor fati: dass man Nichts anders haben will, vorwärts nicht, rückwärts nicht, in alle Ewigkeit nicht. Das Nothwendige nicht bloss ertragen, noch weniger verhehlen – aller Idealismus ist Verlogenheit vor dem Nothwendigen –, sondern es lieben.

my translation:

My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing else, not forwards, not backwards, not in all of eternity. Not merely bearing what is necessary, much less conceal it - all idealism is a pack of lies in the face of what is necessary – but to love it.

- ecce homo

do you not agree?

appropriately enough, this is my 666th post!

I can speak & read German, though I appreciate the translation for others.

As you can guess, I am an avid reader of Nietzsche. However the core of his philosopher was based around the notion of the Overman, or Ubermensch. That one should seek to reject the morality that was given to him and craft a new one from ones' own observations and experiences. And that the quickest way to rejection of the self is to accept slave-morality. I do not, and will not, accept any morality but my own, for myself. I do not seek to enforce it on others, but I seek to be a Master of myself.

You're going to need to do better than cherry-picking the philosopher whos' works I've not only read in the German, but have also translated(for my personal use).

 

[Nooj]

However the core of his philosopher was based around the notion of the Overman, or Ubermensch. That one should seek to reject the morality that was given to him and craft a new one from ones' own observations and experiences. And that the quickest way to rejection of the self is to accept slave-morality. I do not, and will not, accept any morality but my own, for myself. I do not seek to enforce it on others, but I seek to be a Master of myself.

You're going to need to do better than cherry-picking the philosopher whos' works I've not only read in the German, but have also translated(for my personal use).

so as i was saying, even though it is an endless task to become a good person, the very task of becoming a good person, the journey and path, interminable as it is, is the end itself. therein lies the very telos. and this is not a negative thing that god has enjoined upon us. though we may never be a good person, we will always (god willing) become good people.

and this ceaseless task, along the lines of the sisyphean mépris and nietzschean eternal return, is really the opportunity for a life-affirming yes, a ja-sagen. it is an opportunity that some take with relish, and some others don't. christianity at any rate calls us to this task, in imitation of our lord, to say yes to god whenever and wherever and whatever the circumstances.

how 'nietzschean' and how 'christian' is this prayer by the swedish diplomat Dag Hammarskjöld!

For all that has been—thanks!
To all that shall be—yes!

to such a person, 'failure' at being a good person is not enough nor will ever be enough to shake them from their fundamental love of life and of god. could such a lust possibly be the source of a slave morality? could this be a way of life fuelled by ressentiment?

only a weak person would react to failure, the certainty of death, personal weakness by abandoning the whole thing, complaining it is unfair to be punished or ask 'why me?'. amor fati is not a sad, reluctant acquiescence to the state of the world. for nietzsche, to not love fate (or in my own terms, god) is to not love life.

 

[Nietzsche]

so as i was saying, even though it is an endless task to become a good person, the very task of becoming a good person, the journey and path, interminable as it is, is the end itself. therein lies the very telos. and this is not a negative thing that god has enjoined upon us. though we may never be a good person, we will always (god willing) become good people.

and this ceaseless task, along the lines of the sisyphean mépris and nietzschean eternal return, is really the opportunity for a life-affirming yes, a ja-sagen. it is an opportunity that some take with relish, and some others don't. christianity at any rate calls us to this task, in imitation of our lord, to say yes to god whenever and wherever and whatever the circumstances.

I, as an Overman, seek to imitate no one's path. My path, my morality, is fit only for myself. Nietzsche said that there was "only one Christian, and he died on the Cross". Jesus of Nazareth was an Overman, casting away the chains and doubt of the morality he was given at birth, and forged a new path.

That is the only thing of Jesus that I wish to imitate. Forging my own way with my own reason.

how 'nietzschean' and how 'christian' is this prayer by the swedish diplomat Dag Hammarskjöld!

For all that has been—thanks!
To all that shall be—yes!

to such a person, 'failure' at being a good person is not enough nor will ever be enough to shake them from their fundamental love of life and of god. could such a lust possibly be the source of a slave morality? could this be a way of life fuelled by ressentiment?

only a weak person would react to failure, the certainty of death, personal weakness by abandoning the whole thing, complaining it is unfair to be punished or ask 'why me?'. amor fati is not a sad, reluctant acquiescence to the state of the world. for nietzsche, to not love fate (or in my own terms, god) is to not love life.

Nietzsche did not use 'fate'(the word he used in German is best translated as 'fate', but it looses the nuances) in the sense of a preordained path. He used it to mean the path by which you have chosen, the path you have decided to take, based on your own knowledge and your own strength.

Regarding weakness; What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.

 

[catch22]

I, as an Overman, seek to imitate no one's path. My path, my morality, is fit only for myself. Nietzsche said that there was "only one Christian, and he died on the Cross". Jesus of Nazareth was an Overman, casting away the chains and doubt of the morality he was given at birth, and forged a new path.

That is the only thing of Jesus that I wish to imitate. Forging my own way with my own reason.

It's great that you at least admire Christ in that way, but I think at the same time, you're missing some of His best work. Or, well, maybe the bigger picture.


41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


Christ was above all else, obedient to God.


19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.


Yes, Jesus forged a new path, but it was a path He was born with, it was a plan He came to the earth with, and it was guided and given by the Father. In other words, you can't forge your own path. It's delusional to think you can. The very air in your lungs isn't yours. Your life, your body, doesn't even belong to you.

This is just my perspective, and not meant to be an attack or demeaning.

Blessings.

 

[Nietzsche]

It's great that you at least admire Christ in that way, but I think at the same time, you're missing some of His best work. Or, well, maybe the bigger picture.


41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


Christ was above all else, obedient to God.


19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

I take a Jeffersonian view of Jesus, that is, the man without the miracles. I suppose you could say that I admire Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph & Mary, rather than Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus forged a new path, but it was a path He was born with, it was a plan He came to the earth with, and it was guided and given by the Father. In other words, you can't forge your own path. It's delusional to think you can. The very air in your lungs isn't yours. Your life, your body, doesn't even belong to you.

This is just my perspective, and not meant to be an attack or demeaning.

Blessings.

If that is what you choose to believe that is fine. I disagree harshly, but if that is how you wish to live I see no reason to take it from you. All I ask is that you do not expect me to abide by its laws or maxims. You have chosen to submit to a power you clearly believe in with all your heat & mind. I do not believe, and I will not submit.

 

[AllanV]

We have the nature of Adam and all manner of human traits are hidden in this consciousness.
Most people aim in their life to be comfortable and this is also in the mind and they maneuver so there is no test.
Self deception is bloated in its deceit.

 

[Ingledsva]

It's not as simple as that..
What about envy, and sexual motivations?

..and please don't tell me that 'sexual motivations' are part of survival instinct .. that's not what I mean .. I refer to a whole range of sexual crimes..

ALL of our motivations have an evolutionary background.

And All of our understanding, laws, etc., come from caveman starting to live together, and needing to maintain peace.

When you start going into "envy," "and sexual motivations," it is just the bigger brain having more ideas, - good and bad.

*.

 

[Ingledsva]

and why have you already committed to death?

Death is real. All else is just speculation.

*

 

[Etritonakin]

Saved from what?
Sin and death (sorrow, chaos, tragedy, ruin). The wages of sin is death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Sin destroys the creation -and would eventually lead to complete destruction, as we are about to see. We can now destroy all life -and would if the coming days are not cut short.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

To what end?
A universe without all of the above -but with joy, peace, cooperation and endless creativity -and eternal life in a body which does not decay -and which will enable one to have creative power similar to that which the Word who became Christ used when creating the universe (as directed by the Father).

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

 

[Ingledsva]

Saved from what?
Sin and death (sorrow, chaos, tragedy, ruin). The wages of sin is death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Sin destroys the creation -and would eventually lead to complete destruction, as we are about to see. We can now destroy all life -and would if the coming days are not cut short.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

To what end?
A universe without all of the above -but with joy, peace, cooperation and endless creativity -and eternal life in a body which does not decay -and which will enable one to have creative power similar to that which the Word who became Christ used when creating the universe (as directed by the Father).

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

This is your BELIEF - there are NO FACTS - that this is more then wishful thinking.


*

 

[JustWondering]

To what end?
A universe without all of the above -but with joy, peace, cooperation and endless creativity -and eternal life in a body which does not decay -and which will enable one to have creative power similar to that which the Word who became Christ used when creating the universe (as directed by the Father).

But why not just create perfect people and a perfect world to begin with? If that is the end result your god wanted why does this world even exist? When you back up and examine it logically, the Christian supernatural belief system doesn't make any sense.

 

[Etritonakin]

But why not just create perfect people and a perfect world to begin with? If that is the end result your god wanted why does this world even exist? When you back up and examine it logically, the Christian supernatural belief system doesn't make any sense.

Could you please outline the steps necessary to create perfect people and a perfect world?
Please also define "perfect" before you do that.

If there are steps to be outlined and taken -that means there is a process necessary -and that it can not be done "to begin with".

This world is part of the process by which we are made perfect -experience was necessary -then any damage done can be repaired.

 

[JustWondering]

Could you please outline the steps necessary to create perfect people and a perfect world?
Please also define "perfect" before you do that.

If there are steps to be outlined and taken -that means there is a process necessary -and that it can not be done "to begin with".

This world is part of the process by which we are made perfect -experience was necessary -then any damage done can be repaired.

According to YOUR religions claims your god has a specific way he wants things to be (HIS version of perfect not mine). So why didn't he just create the universe as he wanted it to be in the first place?

 

[Kolibri]

According to YOUR religions claims your god has a specific way he wants things to be (HIS version of perfect not mine). So why didn't he just create the universe as he wanted it to be in the first place?

He did. It was the deliberate misuse of free will that put us temporally in this mess.
First the angel now known as Satan, then Eve, then Adam.
It was not Jehovah's intent for them to choose to rebel.
And until Satan uttered that first lie, there was never any rebellion, all the way back to the time God first started creating at least billions of years ago.
That first lie was uttered only about 6000 years ago.
That first liar will be utterly destroyed in just over 1000 years from now.

 

[AllanV]

He did. It was the deliberate misuse of free will that put us temporally in this mess.
First the angel now known as Satan, then Eve, then Adam.
It was not Jehovah's intent for them to choose to rebel.
And until Satan uttered that first lie, there was never any rebellion, all the way back to the time God first started creating at least billions of years ago.
That first lie was uttered only about 6000 years ago.
That first liar will be utterly destroyed in just over 1000 years from now.

Wasn't the angel Lucifer because Satan resides in the natural mind and is attached and encumbers the self. Satan tempts and prompts from hidden aspects in the personality to act out and do things. Satan is also in the way people talk to each other and say the words they do.
Satan means adversary and the parliament of a government is said to be adversarial and look how politicians act and talk. Satan rules this world and is disguised in normal human activity. Satan blinds the whole world.
Most of all Satan opposes and stands in the place of God in the mind.

 

[Kolibri]

If Satan is merely an evil quality within ourselves that resists, then why does the first 2 chapters of Job record two conversations between Jehovah and Satan.
Why, after 40 days of fasting, did Jesus have a conversation with Satan, whereby the latter tried to get Jesus to sin?
Are you suggesting the the Holy, Holy, Holy Jehovah is somehow tainted with evil? Or that his beloved son and chosen king are?
No, he must be a real angel that rebelled - turning himself into a resister (satan) and slanderer (devil)..

-----------------------
"Lucifer" was not even a biblical reference to this angel anyway. It literally means "shining one" and was a descriptive term of the King of Babylon (Isa 14:4,12)

 

[JustWondering]

He did. It was the deliberate misuse of free will that put us temporally in this mess.
First the angel now known as Satan, then Eve, then Adam.
It was not Jehovah's intent for them to choose to rebel.
And until Satan uttered that first lie, there was never any rebellion, all the way back to the time God first started creating at least billions of years ago.
That first lie was uttered only about 6000 years ago.
That first liar will be utterly destroyed in just over 1000 years from now.

I do not except your free will argument. If a god created us then it also endowed us with whatever intelligence, instincts, and capacity for making decisions that we posses. This god could have simply made us to think and behave within certain parameters that it considered good.

Also, for your free will argument to make any logical sense you would have to show that:

1. Free will is a trait your god values and wants humanity to have.
2. Evil is necessary for good to exist.

 

[Kolibri]

I do not have time now. But I will say I agree with 1. and not 2.
Explanation will have to wait.

 

[JustWondering]

Are you suggesting the the Holy, Holy, Holy Jehovah is somehow tainted with evil? Or that his beloved son and chosen king are?

With all the suffering that exists in this world any god that might exist must at least be a sociopath, but not necessarily evil.

 

[JustWondering]

I do not have time now. But I will say I agree with 1. and not 2.
Explanation will have to wait.

Then why does your god allow evil to exist?