Saved to what end?

[Etritonakin]

According to YOUR religions claims your god has a specific way he wants things to be (HIS version of perfect not mine). So why didn't he just create the universe as he wanted it to be in the first place?

"GOD" is not mine or yours -we are "HIS".

What is YOUR perfect version -and why do not YOU create the universe as YOU want IT to BE?

WHY DO YOU NOT NOW CREATE YOUR PERFECT VERSION?

Why did you not instantaneously cause me to accept your version of perfection? Even if it were perfect -how would you make me accept it?

Do you have the power? Do you have the knowledge? Do you have the vision? Do you have the will to start and then continue until it is done?

You exist and I exist. Do you have the power to make your version of perfection come to pass?

If you did -and did so -could you convince me that your version was correct?

It would truly have to be perfect to eventually convince everyone!

You do not know much about that of which you are made! How might you then make the future?

God allowed YOU and OTHERS to exist -and YOU and OTHERS are temporarily IGNORANT -
and THAT is how GOD allowed EVIL to exist.

You will either learn and accept -or reject -the truth. You will either be accepted -or rejected.

 

[AllanV]

If Satan is merely an evil quality within ourselves that resists, then why does the first 2 chapters of Job record two conversations between Jehovah and Satan.
Why, after 40 days of fasting, did Jesus have a conversation with Satan, whereby the latter tried to get Jesus to sin?
Are you suggesting the the Holy, Holy, Holy Jehovah is somehow tainted with evil? Or that his beloved son and chosen king are?
No, he must be a real angel that rebelled - turning himself into a resister (satan) and slanderer (devil)..

-----------------------
"Lucifer" was not even a biblical reference to this angel anyway. It literally means "shining one" and was a descriptive term of the King of Babylon (Isa 14:4,12)

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I have experienced what I am describing. There are attachments that bar the way to experiencing the divine nature with God energizing the Love in that nature. Satan is not outside the mind he is attached within it. The Bible is describing something within the mind and consciousness from Adam.
I never realized until this was tested. After three weeks of a fast I was very weak and something tempted and prompted me within the mind to act out. It was similar to what Jesus went through in the desert. Small benign traits that are expressed from the personality, like irritation can become aggravation and then lead to murder for instance. Something can capture the will and it is very difficult to draw back from. It is like addiction.

Of course I prayed and was saved from my personal traits. But many people do terrible things. Demons are within the mind as fixtures but Satan empowers them.

Those benign traits are dormant and hidden as to where they can lead.
For instance when there is a war would I take up arms and kill some one?
I did compulsory military basic training and I know the psychological tactics used to make people fight.

The divine nature is a shield to psychological pressure, which is actually Satan's and his demons influence with in the mind. Everyone's mind is programed to respond in a human way.

I continued on in the fast and managed to break inwardly deeply enough, having faith and completely believing and then the divine nature covered my old nature and God energized the Love in that nature powerfully. The Bible it totally true.

 

[JustWondering]

God allowed YOU and OTHERS to exist -and YOU and OTHERS are temporarily IGNORANT -
and THAT is how GOD allowed EVIL to exist.

If being ignorant is evil, god could easily fix that right? So why doesn't he? Help me understand.

You will either learn and accept -or reject -the truth. You will either be accepted -or rejected.

So, some people are defective and others are not? Why would god create people to be defective and destined to be rejected to begin with?

 

[Thief]

If being ignorant is evil, god could easily fix that right? So why doesn't he? Help me understand.



So, some people are defective and others are not? Why would god create people to be defective and destined to be rejected to begin with?

Ignorance has two levels.....
Some are ignorant, they simply don't know...that can be remedied.
Some choose to ignorant.
THAT cannot be cured.

Denial and defiance have the same result before God.
So I suspect.

 

[JustWondering]

Denial and defiance have the same result before God.
So I suspect.

Are you saying that not embracing a supernatural belief system when there is no evidence or strong arguments to support its validity is a bad thing?

Also, how many people in their right mind would deny or defy a god that obviously existed?

 

[AllanV]

Also, how many people in their right mind would deny or defy a god that obviously existed?

That is what happens in the mind now but people are blinded to what they say and how they say it makes a God out of their own minds.
Stumbling blocks are idols and these show up in opinions and stubbornness.

 

[Etritonakin]

If being ignorant is evil, god could easily fix that right? So why doesn't he? Help me understand.



So, some people are defective and others are not? Why would god create people to be defective and destined to be rejected to begin with?

God can easily fix that if you sincerely ask him -not me. If you ask to understand, you acknowledge that you are, at least temporarily, ignorant -and need to learn over time.

No -some choose to be defective -and some do not. We are initially deficient -not defective,

Creativity requires choice. Choice requires experience in order to make the correct choice.

 

[JustWondering]

God can easily fix that if you sincerely ask him -not me. If you ask to understand, you acknowledge that you are, at least temporarily, ignorant -and need to learn over time.

No -some choose to be defective -and some do not. We are initially deficient -not defective,

Creativity requires choice. Choice requires experience in order to make the correct choice.

Defective people are never born? I disagree. Violent sociopaths don't CHOOSE to be violent sociopaths, they are born that way. How does your supernatural belief system reconcile that?

 

[Kolibri]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I have experienced what I am describing. There are attachments that bar the way to experiencing the divine nature with God energizing the Love in that nature. Satan is not outside the mind he is attached within it. The Bible is describing something within the mind and consciousness from Adam.
I never realized until this was tested. After three weeks of a fast I was very weak and something tempted and prompted me within the mind to act out. It was similar to what Jesus went through in the desert. Small benign traits that are expressed from the personality, like irritation can become aggravation and then lead to murder for instance. Something can capture the will and it is very difficult to draw back from. It is like addiction.

Of course I prayed and was saved from my personal traits. But many people do terrible things. Demons are within the mind as fixtures but Satan empowers them.

Those benign traits are dormant and hidden as to where they can lead.
For instance when there is a war would I take up arms and kill some one?
I did compulsory military basic training and I know the psychological tactics used to make people fight.

The divine nature is a shield to psychological pressure, which is actually Satan's and his demons influence with in the mind. Everyone's mind is programed to respond in a human way.

I continued on in the fast and managed to break inwardly deeply enough, having faith and completely believing and then the divine nature covered my old nature and God energized the Love in that nature powerfully. The Bible it totally true.

Due to the nature of my secular work, I do understand the shifts you are relating.
And yet I disagree that Satan is merely our imperfect nature taking over or the pressure that builds up prior to an energy shift.

Satan can not be part of Jehovah as per De 32:4
Satan can not be some deviating force within Jesus as per Col 1:15 and 1Jo 3:5
John 8:44 calls him a murderer that did not stand fast in the truth, and "the father of the lie."
Mt 12:22-27 calls him "the ruler of the demons."
Eph 2:2 - "the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
I find this one interesting cause it identifies him as not as "the air" but the "ruler of the authority of" it
Re 12:9 describes him as one that (at the beginning of the last days) was "hurled down to the earth."
From this I gather he is more than a quality of internal pressure leading to sin.

 

[Kolibri]

I do not except your free will argument. If a god created us then it also endowed us with whatever intelligence, instincts, and capacity for making decisions that we posses. This god could have simply made us to think and behave within certain parameters that it considered good.

Also, for your free will argument to make any logical sense you would have to show that:

1. Free will is a trait your god values and wants humanity to have.
2. Evil is necessary for good to exist.

For likely billions of years prior to Adam and Eve's creation there was no sin. None of Jehovah's creations 'missed the mark' of his standard of perfection for them. Only when Satan lied to Eve did the antithesis of good come into existence. The concept was there (tree of knowledge of good and bad) but not the practice. Once our first parents ate the fruit from the tree, the came to know evil internally. Immediately they were exposed for the first time to feelings of guilt, anxiety, insecurity, and shame. (Ge 3:7,8) According to God's way of reckoning the past, that was a mere 6 days ago. (Ps 90:4; 2Pe 3:8)

Regarding if the practice of the antithesis of good started by Satan is to be temporary or not, we can infer the answer from 1 John 4:8.

"The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. (or "from when he began.") For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up (or "destroy.") the works of the Devil."

When the practice of sin is no more - along with those that refuse to be helped out of it - then evil will return to being merely a concept. Satan will be put out of existence in just over 1000 years into our future. Again, from Jehovah's point of view, this is only taking about a week to settle the issue raised by Satan's challenge that God was a bad ruler and that man can do just fine without him - and to fix the damage caused by Satan being allowed to try to prove his point. This one week of rebellion + repair was never intended by Jehovah. But it is a short amount of time to spend to make sure that no one in the future can make a similar claim and be at all believed.

 

[Etritonakin]

Defective people are never born? I disagree. Violent sociopaths don't CHOOSE to be violent sociopaths, they are born that way. How does your supernatural belief system reconcile that?

I was referring to understanding of the truth.

Since you changed the subject altogether.....

People are born defective -but the reasons for this are complex -and can often be traced back to human action or lack thereof at some point -though ultimately to God allowing it temporarily for a purpose.

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.…

"In the media, I'm often asked what causes sociopathy. "Are they born this way?" is one of the most frequently asked questions. The truth is that we don't know. Stout (2005) sums up the research well, explaining that as much as 50% percent of the cause of sociopathy can be attributed to heritability, while the remaining percentage is a confusing and not-yet-understood mixture of environmental factors."
(from Understanding the Sociopath: Cause, Motivation, Relationship | Psychology Today
Also...
Most Modern Day Diseases Are Man-Made

The reason God did not make everything and everyone perfect "to begin with" is that it was not possible.
More correctly, God DID make everything and everyone perfect "to begin with" -but he allowed them to mess things up -and mess up themselves and each other.

The reason for this has to do with his purpose -the intended end result -and that is to reproduce himself -to literally make more gods.

6Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

God could have made us incapable of error -but this would mean he could not have made us both creative and independently perfect/righteous.
If God did everything for us -programmed all of our thoughts and deeds, what would be the point of creating us in the first place? Why not simply do everything himself?
His goal is to create creators who can create things new even to God -who can go out into the universe and not need to be micro-managed -and who will not mess up the whole universe.
That requires that they learn that they indeed can mess everything up -then decide to not mess everything up -and then learn how to not mess everything up.
Because new beings begin at a certain point in time, they are inherently ignorant. God is able to give them knowledge -but he also wants them to independently seek it.
(He has even been known to give people talents they otherwise did not have -like in the movie "The Matrix"...
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship)

For new creators to be truly independent, THEY need to make THEMSELVES perfect. God necessarily guides and enables them to do so -but they must do it.
That could not have been accomplished instantaneously. The goal is endless creation of beauty and joy without conflict -and this required understanding and overcoming conflict -then accepting the laws which prevent it.

God is the source of perfection which we continually reject. He told us what to do to become perfect -beginning with keeping the commandments -and man continually chooses otherwise -until man learns to choose correctly by experience.
That perfection is called "the tree of life" -but we like to find things out for ourselves -we'll eat what we like and no one will tell us otherwise... but we will eventually tell ourselves God was and is correct -because we will know so.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Ignorance has two levels.....
Some are ignorant, they simply don't know...that can be remedied.
Some choose to ignorant.
THAT cannot be cured.

Denial and defiance have the same result before God.
So I suspect.

Not true. I have seen many misguided believers eventually accept reason and understanding.

 

[Thief]

Not true. I have seen many misguided believers eventually accept reason and understanding.

Ok....let me consider a moment.....
If the deliberately ignorant.....change their minds and choose not to be ignorant.....

But then you could say....they were never really stubborn about it.
They stopped ignoring......

But,Ok....I will give you half a wink on that....

 

[Thief]

Are you saying that not embracing a supernatural belief system when there is no evidence or strong arguments to support its validity is a bad thing?

Also, how many people in their right mind would deny or defy a god that obviously existed?

ah...show me God and THEN I will believe....is that the requirement?

Seems to me, God won't prove Himself to anyone.
We are suppose to be proving ourselves ...to Him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

ah...show me God and THEN I will believe....is that the requirement?

That shouldn't be necessary .. "He is closer to us than our jugular vein"

ie. Almighty God is aware of our deepest thoughts

.. He's there somewhere

 

[AllanV]

Due to the nature of my secular work, I do understand the shifts you are relating.
And yet I disagree that Satan is merely our imperfect nature taking over or the pressure that builds up prior to an energy shift.

Satan can not be part of Jehovah as per De 32:4
Satan can not be some deviating force within Jesus as per Col 1:15 and 1Jo 3:5
John 8:44 calls him a murderer that did not stand fast in the truth, and "the father of the lie."
Mt 12:22-27 calls him "the ruler of the demons."
Eph 2:2 - "the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
I find this one interesting cause it identifies him as not as "the air" but the "ruler of the authority of" it
Re 12:9 describes him as one that (at the beginning of the last days) was "hurled down to the earth."
From this I gather he is more than a quality of internal pressure leading to sin.

Satan or his spirit stands in God's place in the mind and then there are attachments with in the mind. Satan rules within the mind and the bonding humans make with each other.
What this tells me is that Jesus was a physical person just like us and he resisted and overcame. He had the same things operating in His mind and they were overcome.

There is now the tested nature of Jesus, that is acceptable to God apart from Adam's and it must be found by the Spirit. There is no possibility of any other way.
This has to be tested in own mind as to the reality of the hold in it. This explains why the will is captured to play out activities and actions from a rebellious nature of Adam.

The new nature and being free of this realm of the mind is incomprehensible to the natural mind, but it is possible to be a partaker of the divined nature.

 

[Thief]

Satan or his spirit stands in God's place in the mind and then there are attachments with in the mind. Satan rules within the mind and the bonding humans make with each other.
What this tells me is that Jesus was a physical person just like us and he resisted and overcame. He had the same things operating in His mind and they were overcome.

There is now the tested nature of Jesus, that is acceptable to God apart from Adam's and it must be found by the Spirit. There is no possibility of any other way.
This has to be tested in own mind as to the reality of the hold in it. This explains why the will is captured to play out activities and actions from a rebellious nature of Adam.

The new nature and being free of this realm of the mind is incomprehensible to the natural mind, but it is possible to be a partaker of the divined nature.

I don't believe Adam and Eve were rebels.
The tree of knowledge is often thought to be a test.
They were told no....and did so anyway.

I believe 'the test' was the only way to be sure the alteration performed in the Garden had taken hold.
Man was never intended to live in the flesh forever.
To survive the last breath his spirit need be curious to know....even as death is pending.

Man became that creature. We ARE that creature.

I don't believe the garden event was a fail.
The species needed to be altered and then returned to the environment.

As for Jesus.....
Indeed He was tempted.
But do you think He succeeded?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I don't believe Adam and Eve were rebels.
The tree of knowledge is often thought to be a test.
They were told no....and did so anyway.

I believe 'the test' was the only way to be sure the alteration performed in the Garden had taken hold.
Man was never intended to live in the flesh forever.
To survive the last breath his spirit need be curious to know....even as death is pending.

Man became that creature. We ARE that creature.

I don't believe the garden event was a fail.
The species needed to be altered and then returned to the environment.

As for Jesus.....
Indeed He was tempted.
But do you think He succeeded?

I've always been puzzled about the restriction on eating from the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

Before eating the apple, A/E had no knowledge of good/evil, they were innocent, not knowing right from wrong. Now god, who is all knowing, all seeing, everywhere...suddenly and inconveniently is not there...gone..no where to be found. and he leaves his babies, his innocent children, alone in their garden...with a a snake...who is the master of lies and deception.

So poor A/E, ignorant, innocent, trusting...abandoned by their father...left with the prince of lies...not knowing good and evil...commit a crime so incredibly horrible that all of humanity is condemned to eternal damnation for all eternity. What was this horrible crime? They trusted the snake their father let into their garden just before he turned his back on them.

 

[AllanV]

I don't believe Adam and Eve were rebels.
The tree of knowledge is often thought to be a test.
They were told no....and did so anyway.

I believe 'the test' was the only way to be sure the alteration performed in the Garden had taken hold.
Man was never intended to live in the flesh forever.
To survive the last breath his spirit need be curious to know....even as death is pending.

Man became that creature. We ARE that creature.

I don't believe the garden event was a fail.
The species needed to be altered and then returned to the environment.

As for Jesus.....
Indeed He was tempted.
But do you think He succeeded?

It would take some study to know the scriptures well and I personally think it isn't meant to be for an intellectual genius.
It took me a while to understand what was going on in the garden of Eden and what was being described. You do raise an interesting point, but the out come is the same.
When man changed, the planet also changed, in fact the whole creation. It happened at the same time.

The clue about Adam's nature is in how people act and behave now because we have a genetic and hereditary line that must have begun from very few. We are usually brought up in an extended family and this is the beginning of life experience. We learn all the mental skills to compete with others with some balance and composure. It doesn't always work like that of course.

We learn to talk in different ways with different emphasis to make a point and it can get into another person to good affect. We learn the skills to get into someones mind where their own brain develops the responses in electrical impulses and chemicals. We are able to generate feelings and they could be in different parts of the body. These feelings are read of course, in the mind and usually require a response. The mind and body are in harmony to satisfy a biological creature.We take it all for granted and do not know anything different. This tends to take a lot of energy and can wear us down.

The nature of Jesus does not interact in the same manner. The mind is pure and does not compete or try to generate any thing in the mind of the hearer but will energize rather than tire out. There should be a lot less for the receiving mind to do.

If every one could be in this state of mind there would be no conflict. Ultimately this nature could lead to immortality because the Love in it is energized by God the life giving Spirit.
Jesus did win but very few will take up His nature because it requires letting the old mind and aspects of the personality go and it is frightening. There are attachments on the mind that we learn to be comfortable with and see them as the person we are from the inside. Of course we are not seeing ourselves as others do.

I have experienced His nature but could not maintain it and it took several months to be comfortable with my self and the physical flesh body.
It was done accidentally, I didn't expect what happened.
I don't think the experience has made me insane except I have had to move on from some of the people I knew.

 

[AllanV]

We tend to have a need to do good and evil to be balanced.
It is often said without evil good would not be known. Therefore that is how it plays out in life with all endeavor.
It is written in to the mind somewhere because some people always seem to have bad things happen and others good and some a bit of both. Some purposely do bad things or things against society and some will jump in and do good while others stand around.