Saved to what end?

[Ingledsva]

AGAIN - why would a supposedly all-knowing God require this impossible role of imperfect humans?

I don't believe, if a God were real, he would be that ridiculous.

If you cast an image identical.....as perfect.....you would be talking to yourself.
The only way to cast another image that has it's own mind....it needs to be less.

All-knowing God is a term that implies......we are not all knowing.
God is all mighty....implies...we are not.

If ever any one of us should become all knowing and all mighty....we would be the direct and perfect reflection of God.

Which doesn't answer this question, - or the previous one, - which is why would this supposed creator KILL his imperfect creation, for being imperfect.

*

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This idea that ALL people commit sins disserving of death - is just BULL!

*

Repeating that over and over won't make it untrue. We need Christ.

 

[Revasser]

Repeating that over and over won't make it untrue. We need Christ.

And repeating that over and over won't make it true either, no?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

And repeating that over and over won't make it true either, no?

You're correct, it doesn't, though other things like looking at Jesus' life, considering the witness of His Resurrection and reading the Bible can.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..why would this supposed creator KILL his imperfect creation, for being imperfect.

Not for being imperfect..
Almighty God is not bounded by the universe ie. space-time
He is aware of the future, as we are aware of the past .. Almighty God acts to save mankind from manmade total disaster .. nevertheless, the end of the world will come to pass eventually, when He wills..

 

[Thief]

Which doesn't answer this question, - or the previous one, - which is why would this supposed creator KILL his imperfect creation, for being imperfect.

*

I believe the peace of heaven is guarded.....not all enter.

So if you might be one of the many that don't fit in.....

I suspect life after death might need Someone in charge.
How else to maintain the peace?
and angels have been displayed with sword in hand for centuries.
I cannot take that away.

There is a famous quote....Be thou perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I suspect the crowd at hand needed to hear it.
Not as an actual goal, since perfection is illusive.
But rather as a means to silence the objection at hand.

I prefer to believe entry...in spite of our faults is possible.
That would be called.....grace.

I then also suspect.....a higher level of discipline will be taught and expected.
Maybe perfection can be had.
Not now.....but later.

Still, there does seem to be objection........

 

[Nietzsche]

do you happen to know a person called albert camus? such beautiful writing!

one of his books is called the myth of sisyphus. he writes that one must imagine sisyphus happy. to understand why, one must read the book...

but to help you understand, isn't this endless, eternal task of sisyphus the exact same task of nietzsche when he tells us of a demon stealing away into our chamber at night, and offering us the burden of eternal return? the heaviest weight that crushes some and lifts others.

do you want to be the one who is crushed? or the one who falls to his knees in joy at the thought of this unsupportable burden?

to love fate - amor fati. the good and the bad.

...

You are basically saying to "those who are enslaved, love your chains, for your Master knows best". No. Just...no.

 

[thau]

The question you asked was too limited. If you want to ask a question like that, I require first the granting of all the powers of an omnipotent & omniscient being. So I answered "I would make a world where he would not have to suffer to be good". It's the only proper way to ask and answer that question.

I've read the Bible in English about 2-3 times. I've read it in Latin, Aramaic & Greek about twice each. And yes, I do assume you cannot know.

Bible.

[me: First off, I asked you a question you chose not to answer directly. I guess I have to accept that, not a problem.]

Nietzsche: The question you asked was too limited. If you want to ask a question like that, I require first the granting of all the powers of an omnipotent & omniscient being. So I answered "I would make a world where he would not have to suffer to be good". It's the only proper way to ask and answer that question.

I do not find my question unfair at all. Give a parent two different scenarios of the type of child they might raise and the favors afforded him or her, and as them which they prefer. The question obviously was making reference to suggesting what purpose God may have had for putting us to the test and through trials. I think the answer for most parents is that they prefer their child to endure some hardships and challenges and through that become an honorable, grateful, caring and loving person.


[me: Now to your comments: Who told you that is how God acts? Was it your interpretation of Holy Scripture or some other so-called Christian authority? Because what you say I say is a lie because it assumes things that I believe are false, or at a minimum, one would have no way of knowing. So, once again, the doubter casts God in a sinister role based upon his own false description of God. (imo)]

Nietzsche: I've read the Bible in English about 2-3 times. I've read it in Latin, Aramaic & Greek about twice each. And yes, I do assume you cannot know.

Yes, and so have a multitude of theologians, scholars and leaders of churches memorized the Bible, and what do you know?... there are serious disagreements amongst them! As there were in Jesus’ time and before such as between Pharisees and Sadducees, et al. So just because you read the Bible does not mean it is clear to you what God means in every instance. That is exactly why Jesus Christ established His Church to be the ruling authority on earth. To have “the keys of the kingdom,” “to loose or bind sins,” “to be clear that whatsoever His Church bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven.” I know that upsets quite a few protestants, but they need to humble themselves and understand what Christ meant and what He desired. Just because the Catholic Church is guilty of many sins does not change God’s will. So were the Jews.


[me: Have you any evidence of this is how God treats sinful man?]

Nietzsche: Bible.

Yes, you already intimated that. I am here to tell you that you do not know what you are insisting is how God treats sinners. There is not one person in history the Catholic Church would ever dare say is in hell. Because they know it is a high crime for them to take on the role of divine judge.

 

[AllanV]

And not a single thing you have said makes it logical to kill humans for minor flaws, when they are - well - human

Adam and Chav'vah didn't exist. A stone with laws was not handed to the Hebrew by God - on a mountain. These are just teaching stories.

*

Man has a flawed mind and corrective measures need to be taken.
Man's flawed thinking will bring all life on this planet to extinction. But some will understand and be drawn out of the collective mind set with behaviors that bring destruction.

 

[catch22]

LOL! Don't even try the red-herring.

Who is crying foul?

I told you the - ALL are evil and deserving of death idea, - is PURE BULL!

In other words - MYTH!

*

It's not a red herring, it's demonstrating the hardness of your heart by asking you to consider a similar situation you cannot change.

You aren't bent out of shape about being a biped, are you? A woman? Why do you accept those things that you cannot change and aren't on a forum making a case against them?

You don't like your condition of being born into sin. Fine. A lot of us don't. You can either accept it as the way it is and there is a vast amount of intelligence and knowledge beyond what you know -- or you can continue to trade the truth for a lie and enjoy that.

It's clear to me you've been told and rejected. Soooo... onward with life.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Man has a flawed mind and corrective measures need to be taken.
Man's flawed thinking will bring all life on this planet to extinction. But some will understand and be drawn out of the collective mind set with behaviors that bring destruction.

In what way is man's mind flawed? How is that you, with a flawed mind, are able to discern that your mind is flawed? If you are certain your mind is flawed, what makes you a competent judge to determine all human mind's are flawed?

How can you, with an admittedly flawed mind, possibly be in a position to pass judgement on all human minds in general?

 

[AllanV]

In what way is man's mind flawed? How is that you, with a flawed mind, are able to discern that your mind is flawed? If you are certain your mind is flawed, what makes you a competent judge to determine all human mind's are flawed?

How can you, with an admittedly flawed mind, possibly be in a position to pass judgement on all human minds in general?

With observation of behavior and consequences there is evidence that mans' mind is flawed and of course man dies. He is fixated with conflict, destruction and death.
The nature of Jesus and the Christ mind reveal something better and this will lead to immortality.
With experience a comparison is made.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

With observation of behavior and consequences there is evidence that mans' mind is flawed and of course man dies. He is fixated with conflict, destruction and death.
The nature of Jesus and the Christ mind reveal something better and this will lead to immortality.
With experience a comparison is made.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again, since you have a flawed mind, how do you know your thoughts aren't flawed? Secondly, you talk about what you observe in man, and some comparison between man and jesus based on experience? Where does your experience with jesus come from?

Even if you have some experience with jesus that is comparable to your experience with mankind, how are you competent to compare the two? Seeing as you have a defective mind?

 

[Ingledsva]

Repeating that over and over won't make it untrue. We need Christ.

I don't. I'm doing just fine in the human department.

I feel no need to be a cowering, kowtowing, slave, in perpetual fear of some master's illogical torture-murder threat for minuscule offences.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

You're correct, it doesn't, though other things like looking at Jesus' life, considering the witness of His Resurrection and reading the Bible can.

You have no proof for any God-son, miracles, saving, etc.

This make Christianity no different then the Hare Krishna, or Wicca, etc.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Not for being imperfect..
Almighty God is not bounded by the universe ie. space-time
He is aware of the future, as we are aware of the past .. Almighty God acts to save mankind from manmade total disaster .. nevertheless, the end of the world will come to pass eventually, when He wills..

There is no way for humans to be totally perfect, - making this idea totally illogical.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Man has a flawed mind and corrective measures need to be taken.
Man's flawed thinking will bring all life on this planet to extinction. But some will understand and be drawn out of the collective mind set with behaviors that bring destruction.

That is your belief - NOT FACT.

Nor does it answer what we are discussing. Why would a God create a people whom can't be perfect, - then threaten to torture and murder them for minor infractions?

Totally illogical.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

It's not a red herring, it's demonstrating the hardness of your heart by asking you to consider a similar situation you cannot change.

You aren't bent out of shape about being a biped, are you? A woman? Why do you accept those things that you cannot change and aren't on a forum making a case against them?

You don't like your condition of being born into sin. Fine. A lot of us don't. You can either accept it as the way it is and there is a vast amount of intelligence and knowledge beyond what you know -- or you can continue to trade the truth for a lie and enjoy that.

It's clear to me you've been told and rejected. Soooo... onward with life.

Being a woman is REAL, - and why would I complain about such?

Your religion is NOT real. I'm NOT born into sin. That is merely your belief.

Above, you illogically try to compare reality, - with myth.

*

 

[catch22]

That is your belief - NOT FACT.

Nor does it answer what we are discussing. Why would a God create a people whom can't be perfect, - then threaten to torture and murder them for minor infractions?

Totally illogical.

*

You're a bit dramatic. God doesn't threaten to torture and murder you, you do it to yourself.

I guess the Lord could have made you a perfect drone to worship Him, with no thought, mind, or personality. I guess He wanted more for you, so He gave you the chance to do more. Life is what life is. It's a gift, enjoy it while you can. If you want to upgrade to the eternity plan, you'll have to submit for that. Otherwise, back to the dust and what not. Can't complain. You wouldn't have had anything and wouldn't have known the difference.

Take the blessings or continue to hate them. Whatever works for you. But at this point, you are without excuse.

 

[catch22]

Being a woman is REAL, - and why would I complain about such?

Your religion is NOT real. I'm NOT born into sin. That is merely your belief.

Above, you illogically try to compare reality, - with myth.

*

It's illogical to you. It's real to me. I think you are born into sin. You disagree. Well, okay. My point of view is as valid as yours, whether you appreciate it or not. Neither can prove nor disprove. Surely we both didn't just realize that, eh?

Many are called, few are chosen. The path to destruction is wide, salvation is narrow.

Guess you drew the short straw. Sure you don't wanna opt in?