SCIENCE: Death Anxiety Likely Cause of Belief in Intelligent Design

[AManCalledHorse]

Ah, good, this will give me a chance to help @Subduction Zone understand the full ramifications of omnibenevolence that he was struggling with too.

Yes, God IS the creator of evil--but this is nothing new. He explicitly takes credit for it in Isaiah 45:7 (KJV):

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

So why would an omnibenevolent God not only allow evil to exist but actually create it in the first place???

As I stated before, I define God as being omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent God would want to create the best of all possible universes. An omniscient God would know how to create the best of all possible universes. An omnipotent God would have the power to create the best of all possible universes. So if an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God exists, then we are logically constrained to conclude that we live in the best of all possible universes, and that any evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing that exists is only that amount of evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing that is necessary to the best of all possible universes.

Why would ANY evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing be necessary to the best of all possible universes? Because even God can't create a one-sided coin; things exists only in contrast to their negation. Fish don't know they live in water, because they don't have anything to compare it to. We could not know what day was if there was no night. We would not understand justice if we did not have examples of injustice--and we could not appreciate goodness without contrasting it to evil. In short, it is better to have BOTH good and evil--so that we can know and appreciate goodness--than to have neither.

And that is why the existence of evil does not contradict omnibenevolence; in fact, it is indicative of it.

I'm not into religious debates but it seems you are saying what god created had a opposite. Is that close?

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Please

Yes please show your stats to support your assertion. I do believe that's a rule here. Third time asking.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

I'm not sure what you mean by faith having testable evidence, but yeah, ALL facts are based in faith--even evidence.

I would never try to prove God's existence to anyone. If God wants to reveal Himself to you, He's powerful enough to do so. I don't think that's my place.

I can take you in and question you about god. If your faith is strong your believe/faith in god could be shown on brain waves, making it testable because you actually believe in god.

 

[Axe Elf]

I'm not into religious debates but it seems you are saying what god created had a opposite. Is that close?

Um, no, not really. More that things exist only in contrast to their negation. If God hadn't created evil, we could not be aware of goodness.

 

[Axe Elf]

I can take you in and question you about god. If your faith is strong your believe/faith in god could be shown on brain waves, making it testable because you actually believe in god.

Um, no, a belief cannot be determined from brain waves.

But if you're saying that you can test whether or not I have faith in something by asking me if I have faith in it, then yes, faith could be "tested" in that way--but of course even that evidence would be based in the faith you have that I am answering your questions honestly.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

I'm not sure what you mean by faith having testable evidence, but yeah, ALL facts are based in faith--even evidence.

I would never try to prove God's existence to anyone. If God wants to reveal Himself to you, He's powerful enough to do so. I don't think that's my place.

I agree to a point some evidence is based off faith. Once that evidence is shown then faith takes a back seat because we then base what's next from the evidence we already have.

 

[sayak83]

Ah, good, this will give me a chance to help @Subduction Zone understand the full ramifications of omnibenevolence that he was struggling with too.

Yes, God IS the creator of evil--but this is nothing new. He explicitly takes credit for it in Isaiah 45:7 (KJV):

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

So why would an omnibenevolent God not only allow evil to exist but actually create it in the first place???

As I stated before, I define God as being omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent God would want to create the best of all possible universes. An omniscient God would know how to create the best of all possible universes. An omnipotent God would have the power to create the best of all possible universes. So if an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God exists, then we are logically constrained to conclude that we live in the best of all possible universes, and that any evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing that exists is only that amount of evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing that is necessary to the best of all possible universes.

Why would ANY evil, suffering, or other Bad Thing be necessary to the best of all possible universes? Because even God can't create a one-sided coin; things exists only in contrast to their negation. Fish don't know they live in water, because they don't have anything to compare it to. We could not know what day was if there was no night. We would not understand justice if we did not have examples of injustice--and we could not appreciate goodness without contrasting it to evil. In short, it is better to have BOTH good and evil--so that we can know and appreciate goodness--than to have neither.

And that is why the existence of evil does not contradict omnibenevolence; in fact, it is indicative of it.

This is not a good argument. The only things these experiences of evil and suffering create for us are mental concepts and impressions. God can easily make beings who are born with fully fledged concepts and impressions of injustice, suffering etc. or produce virtual simulators where we can learn them first hand (like crash simulations that pilots use) without the real world having any of these properties. So, no, its not necessary for God to create real evil for us to understand it as a contrast to a wholly good world.

 

[Axe Elf]

I agree to a point some evidence is based off faith. Once that evidence is shown then faith takes a back seat because we then base what's next from the evidence we already have.

Yes, that's true. Theorems can build on previously established theorems, but trace them back far enough and all theorems are eventually based on axioms.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Um, no, a belief cannot be determined from brain waves.

But if you're saying that you can test whether or not I have faith in something by asking me if I have faith in it, then yes, faith could be "tested" in that way--but of course even that evidence would be based in the faith you have that I am answering your questions honestly.

Yes. That's clearer than I put it.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

This is not a good argument. The only things these experiences of evil and suffering create for us are mental concepts and impressions. God can easily make beings who are born with fully fledged concepts and impressions of injustice, suffering etc. or produce virtual simulators where we can learn them first hand (like crash simulations that pilots use) without the real world having any of these properties. So, no, its not necessary for God to create real evil for us to understand it as a contrast to a wholly good world.

True but if people only learned through simulations we would never know the real consequences.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's great. Then you should have no problem providing those stats. Thanks in advance.

Let's star with prison population:
Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population

Since even the lowest measure of atheists would be about 3% of the U.S. population they are under represented in prison by a factor of thirty times.

 

[Axe Elf]

This is not a good argument. The only things these experiences of evil and suffering create for us are mental concepts and impressions. God can easily make beings who are born with fully fledged concepts and impressions of injustice, suffering etc. or produce virtual simulators where we can learn them first hand (like crash simulations that pilots use) without the real world having any of these properties. So, no, its not necessary for God to create real evil for us to understand it as a contrast to a wholly good world.

It's easy to SAY that "God could easily do this or that," but it's not easy to demonstrate that God could have done anything differently at all without violating his omnibenevolence, omniscience, or omnipotence. From our almost infinitesimally limited perspective, it's preposterous to claim that the universe could be better if only this thing or that thing were different--we have no way of knowing what the repercussions of changing any one little thing would be. A butterfly flapping its wings in Hong Kong, you know... So if anything were changed, this would no longer be the best of all possible universes, and God would have given up his omnibenevolence by creating anything less than the best of all possible universes.

Anyway, ironically, I kind of look at this life in the physical universe as that "test chamber"--the simulator where we learn what good and evil are for just a few moments, so that we can enjoy the saturation of goodness and complete absence of evil for the much grander scheme of eternity. Having a simulator within the simulator would be kind of redundant.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Yes, that's true. Theorems can build on previously established theorems, but trace them back far enough and all theorems are eventually based on axioms.

I agree. The difference is there has never been any testable evidence for god to build on.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Atheists have a lower divorce rate than most Christians:

Divorce Rates for Atheists Lower Than Christians

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Let's star with prison population:
Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population

Since even the lowest measure of atheists would be about 3% of the U.S. population they are under represented in prison by a factor of thirty times.

While claiming your 0.1% are you taking into account that most everyone that goes to prison, even atheist, claim they have found god while they are in prison simply because it helps with parole? Yet once released they say "god who?" Lets see your stats on that. You're gullible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

While claiming your 0.1% are you taking into account that most everyone that goes to prison, even atheist, claim they have found god while they are in prison simply because it helps with parole? Yet once released they say "god who?" Lets see your stats on that. You're gullible.

Please, now you are just grasping at straws. I gave you your stats. Why would atheists do something so stupid and dishonest as claiming that they "found God"? I have only seen Christians do that, and yes, I do know some Christians that went to prison.

ETA: And I am done. If you won't accept the statistics that you demanded there is no point in supplying you with them.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Atheists have a lower divorce rate than most Christians:

Divorce Rates for Atheists Lower Than Christians

Please. No joke sites. Did you know in the US its a proven fact by studies that christians get married more than atheists also?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Please. No joke sites. Did you know in the US its a proven fact by studies that christians get married more than atheists also?

Not a joke site. That is two strikes against you. I am done. I supported my claims.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

Please, now you are just grasping at straws. I gave you your stats. Why would atheists do something so stupid and dishonest as claiming that they "found God"? I have only seen Christians do that, and yes, I do know some Christians that went to prison.

You would be amazed how many people claim to find god while they are in prison. Its no secret. Its been that way for 100's of years. Blame that ploy on the christians because that's what they wanted to see and rewarded prisoners for claiming that. It still happens.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope. My two brothers are corrections officers in two different states. You would be amazed how many people claim to find god while they are in prison. Its no secret. Its been that way for 109's of years.

And they tend to be Christians. Your brothers forgot to check into the past of the people that "found god".