Searching for one secular reason to ban gay marriage

[standing_alone]

Help me with something though if you will. What is the difference between a civil union and a marriage? This is a legit question also, not a challenge. Do civil unions grant the same legalities as marriage? If not, would homosexuals consider it good enough if it did? Just curious.

Civil unions only grant the few rights and benefits afforded by the state government and none of those 1000+ rights and benefits afforded by the federal government. Unlike civil marriage, civil unions are only recognized in the state in which the civil union is granted (though I think New Hampshire might be working to recognize those performed in Vermont). If a same-sex couple is out of state and would be in need of one of the rights afforded by the civil union, they are SOL because any other state isn't going to recognize the civil union. If I'm right, only three states offer civil unions and thanks to DOMA, no state has to recognize any of them performed outside their state and civil unions are not recognized by the federal government at all. Civil unions are hardly equal to marriage and are just a bone politicians and individuals wanting to hide their prejudices throw out there to look like they support equality.

If civil unions were 100% identical to civil marriage, I wouldn't have a problem, though I think it's stupid to call them different names. Pretty petty if the problem heterosexuals have with same-sex marriage is over a word (a word that religion doesn't have a monopoly on, no less). However, I don't think the problem heterosexuals have with same-sex marriage is over a word, but it'd be better I not go into what I think about this....

 

[roli]

It looks like you're referring to Paul Cameron's "study" on the lifespan of gays. If so, you might want to retract your statement since this absurd "study" has been throughly discredited.

There are several studies that state similar stats.

 

[Nanda]

There are several studies that state similar stats.

Could you cite them, please?

 

[roli]

[

quote=Prometheus;801239]roli, you ignored my last post, or simply didn't read it. I ask that you respond to it please. To refute your most recent comments, your links mention STDs, pedophilia and depression as arguments against homosexuality.

I'm going to bold these next three sentences to make sure we stay clear about this.

Homosexuality is not pedophilia, they are completely different words with different meanings.

Homosexuality is not promiscuity, they are completely different words with different meanings.

Homosexuality is not depression, they are completely different words with different meanings.

That is excellent observation on your part,but my arguement was not that homsexuality is this or that as you have plainly made it appear.
Homosexuality is closely linked to and in particular has a very close association to the pedophilia arena,according to serveral articles I have read.
But of course they will all be discounted or debunked by you and others if I were to display them,so why bother.

Homosexuality, as defined by a dictionary is, "having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex".

Thanks for explaining that to me!!!!!!!!!

To show that homosexuality is wrong you must find a secular reason why being attracted to people of the same sex is wrong.

Nothing more secular than that regarding our,"Organs" and orifices in the human body that might prove something contray to the pro gay position.
How far from the obvious must we go to call a spade a spade

What you are doing is called the Questionable Cause Fallacy. You associate things like STDs and pedophilia to homosexuality to make it appear that homosexuality is the cause when it is not.

Perversion,placing your sexual organ which was meant for a specific place,somewhere that is pleasurable and stimulating does not make it right.
We are a twisted and perverted society,tainitng the very essence of our future ,children

Also, you state that morality and secularism can not co-exist. Are you telling me the only reason you don't steal, lie or kill people is because of the Bible? If so, that scares me.

They can exist but as is plain in our society,religion has become intolerable towards the politically correct agenda, and therefore is not allowed or given a fair chance to exist as God meant themn to be

Whether you think so or not, it is possible to be moral without religion. I'm not going to debate this with you here, because that's not the topic of the thread. If you want to debate me about the connection between religion and morality, I'd be happy to do so in private messages. However, from now on, please refrain from quoting the Bible if you want me or anyone else to take you seriously.

If you think so ,maybe to some degreee but to the degree that we were intended to be.
Your morality today can change in a heart beat and makes it very unstable

I would ask everyone to please ignore all statements that make mention of religion from now on.

What are you afraid of ,this is a religious forum!!!!!

 

[standing_alone]

Homosexuality is closely linked to and in particular has a very close association to the pedophilia arena,according to serveral articles I have read.
But of course they will all be discounted or debunked by you and others if I were to display them,so why bother.

Yes, "God" forbid such nonesense be debunked and shown for the absurdity that it is.

As a victim of a pedophile first (in which the pedophile also happened to be the opposite sex as me) and as a homosexual second, I find your attempts (and others' attempts) to link homosexuality and pedophilia insulting and ignorant. Don't use the painful experience of me and other victims of pedophiles as tools for your ignorant cause. The abuse and exploitation of children is quite different from consensual love between adults.

 

[Prometheus]

That is excellent observation on your part,but my arguement was not that homsexuality is this or that as you have plainly made it appear.
Homosexuality is closely linked to and in particular has a very close association to the pedophilia arena,according to serveral articles I have read.
But of course they will all be discounted or debunked by you and others if I were to display them,so why bother.

Just as eating is closely related to choking, swimming to drowning, sleeping to having nightmares and running to tripping.

Your logic implies these things are wrong because they are related to negative things.

Thanks for explaining that to me!!!!!!!!!

I thought you were confused because you keep associating negative things to homosexuality rather than addressing homosexuality itself.

Nothing more secular than that regarding our,"Organs" and orifices in the human body that might prove something contray to the pro gay position.
How far from the obvious must we go to call a spade a spade

So you don't think sex should be used for anything but procreation?

Perversion,placing your sexual organ which was meant for a specific place,somewhere that is pleasurable and stimulating does not make it right.
We are a twisted and perverted society,tainitng the very essence of our future ,children

You can think whatever you want is perversion, but that doesn't hold water as an argument.

They can exist but as is plain in our society,religion has become intolerable towards the politically correct agenda, and therefore is not allowed or given a fair chance to exist as God meant themn to be

So do you think Islam should play a bigger role in the government? Personally, I don't think we pray to Allah enough in our schools. Also, I would encourage you to only vote for Muslims for government offices. I don't think anyone who hasn't studied the Quran has the moral judgment needed for those positions.

If you think so ,maybe to some degreee but to the degree that we were intended to be.
Your morality today can change in a heart beat and makes it very unstable

Morality is what makes society function well. If society changes, so will morality.

What are you afraid of ,this is a religious forum!!!!!

If you can't use a secular argument then you're not worth listening to on this issue. Last I checked we don't live in a theocracy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Homosexuality is closely linked to and in particular has a very close association to the pedophilia arena,according to serveral articles I have read.
But of course they will all be discounted or debunked by you and others if I were to display them,so why bother.

Of course it will be thrown out. Pedophiles have a sexual orientation towards children. Homosexuals have a sexual orientation towards members of thier own gender. Sometimes one person can be both, and I'm sure it has happened. But the logic of "homosexuals are pedophiles" is absurd. Out of all the homosexuals I have known, NONE of them are pedophiles.

Perversion,placing your sexual organ which was meant for a specific place,somewhere that is pleasurable and stimulating does not make it right.
We are a twisted and perverted society,tainitng the very essence of our future ,children

So what about heterosexual females who enjoy anal intercourse? Or oral sex? Are those wrong just because it's not vaginal intercourse, and strictly for pleasure, rather than procreation?
And how would allowing gays to get marriage be tainting children? Just because they see a homosexual couple doesn't mean they'll become homosexuals themeselves. Thier will be plently more hetersexual couples to "counter act" this so-called taint, so children are exposed to both, which they already are.

What are you afraid of ,this is a religious forum!!!!!

*points at thread title, which specifically says SECULAR REASON*

The abuse and exploitation of children is quite different from consensual love between adults.

Frubals.

 

[Moey]

To compare or link homosexuality to pedophilia is like saying that all people of faith are like the religious zelots that attacked on 9/11 and should be treated as terrorists.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We the people have the right to pursue happiness. If being in a Gay or Lesbian relationship makes you happy, so be it. This is your choice. When you ask the state to sanction your relationship, you tread on the rights of others. Many feel that this makes a mockery of marriage and feel attacked. In effect, you are asking to be legitimised. Many people (the majority) feel that your relationship is not legitimate and do not wish to sanction your relationship.

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

 

[McBell]

When you ask the state to sanction your relationship, you tread on the rights of others.

How?
Please explain how allowing same sex couples to marry treads on the rights of others.

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

Just like when women wanted to vote.
Just like when blacks and whites wanted to marry one another.
Just like when blacks wanted the same rights as whites.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Just like when women wanted to vote.

Excellent example. When women quit doing things that they did every day, they got their way didn't they?

Just like when blacks and whites wanted to marry one another.

How did this get changed? What effected the change? What was done back then might work now for same sex relationships.

Just like when blacks wanted the same rights as whites.

Are you going to tell me that there is not any discrimination as far as black and white are concerned? Is everything fixed? How long has this been going on and how much work has been done to fix the problem that still exists today?

Perhaps Gays and Lesbians want to ride in on the shirt tails of all the hard work the black community has done.

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

 

[standing_alone]

If being in a Gay or Lesbian relationship makes you happy, so be it. This is your choice.

Being a lesbian certainly makes me happy, but it wasn't my choice. It's just part of who I am.

When you ask the state to sanction your relationship, you tread on the rights of others.

Bull. Your rights have not been affected one wee bit. Your ignorance; however, stands in the way of same-sex relationships being afforded the same dignity and respect by the secular federal government that you take for granted and I doubt appreciate. You can feel however you want about same-sex relationships. Got a problem with same-sex marriage, don't marry a person of the same-sex. This isn't rocket science for crying out loud. In your position of privilege, you have nothing to lose by not having same-sex marriage recognized by the secular federal government; you have nothing to lose by having same-sex marriage recognized by the secular federal government. However, when state constitutions are amended to ban same-sex relationships being recognized on any level (from civil marriage to civil union), I lose out on equality, on being treated with respect and dignity. I have so much to gain by civil marriage being extended to same-sex relationships. You don't feel the sting of rejection when the state you love votes to make sure you're state's constitution ensures you'll not be treated as an equal. So, don't talk to me about your rights being treaded on. They haven't been.

Many feel that this makes a mockery of marriage and feel attacked. In effect, you are asking to be legitimised.

And I think heterosexuality is perverse, reinforces negative gender roles, encourages inequality between the sexes (treats women as the sexual property of men), and think heterosexual sex is just plain disgusting. I certainly don't understand why anyone would want to be a het. I think homosexual love is more pure and equal. However, I don't let my view on that dictate whether a heterosexual can marry his or her opposite sex partner. A heterosexual marriage has no effect on me, just as a homosexual marriage, if it were allowed, would have no effect on me--NOR would it have an effect on you.

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

And many people recognize tyrranny of the majority for what it is and understand the importance of providing, maintaining, and respecting civil rights for minority and marginalized groups. Many people love this country, too, but realize it has much greater potential, where all citizens feel welcome and a part of it. I am one of those people.

 

[Nanda]

Perhaps Gays and Lesbians want to ride in on the shirt tails of all the hard work the black community has done.

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

Excuse me... Why should someone HAVE to work for their civil rights? What kind of messed up logic is that?

 

[standing_alone]

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

There are many organizations and groups working for equality. We ARE working. It's people like you standing in the way of us getting our rights.

 

[Mike182]

We the people have the right to pursue happiness. If being in a Gay or Lesbian relationship makes you happy, so be it. This is your choice. When you ask the state to sanction your relationship, you tread on the rights of others. Many feel that this makes a mockery of marriage and feel attacked. In effect, you are asking to be legitimised. Many people (the majority) feel that your relationship is not legitimate and do not wish to sanction your relationship.

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

so the mob rules?

and what if one day the majority decides that Christianity offends them, maybe because it is against mainstream values, would you support Christianity being legally abused?

for instance, the gay adoption Vs. Catholic church row over here in the UK. Government says equality overrides discrimination, popular opinion supports gay right to adopt, and the Catholic church is forced to either allow gays to adopt from their services, or withdraw their service.

this is wrong in my opinion, it is legislating one conscience over the other.

i don't want to go into that example in detail, i am just illustrating my point - you are saying the majority may dictate how the minority live, and that is not to be tolerated in western society.

Perhaps Gays and Lesbians want to ride in on the shirt tails of all the hard work the black community has done.

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

is this what this is all about? you are just peeved off that gays haven't gone through the same trials as the black community? rights should be given to everyone equally, you shouldn't have to go through an initiation period of suffering to prove being an equal person, that's just sick.

 

[Nanda]

is this what this is all about? you are just peeved off that gays haven't gone through the same trials as the black community? rights should be given to everyone equally, you shouldn't have to go through an initiation period of suffering to prove being an equal person, that's just sick.

:yes: My thoughts exactly! (But worded much more eloquently.) Frubals!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

Except during presidential elections...

<Cough> Electoral college <cough>

Sometimes it is dangerous to let the majority have all the control, especially when it comes to human rights.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We the people have the right to pursue happiness. If being in a Gay or Lesbian relationship makes you happy, so be it. This is your choice.

Since I'm not gay, and neither are you, I am going to trust the countless gays who say it isn't thier choice.

This is your choice. When you ask the state to sanction your relationship, you tread on the rights of others. Many feel that this makes a mockery of marriage and feel attacked.

How??? You have those who deny the rights, who are attacking, and those being denied the rights, who are being attacked. How is allowing gays to be legally married going to attack ANYONE?

Many people love this country just the way it is, and refuse to let the minority dictate what is acceptable to the majority.

And it's pathetic that is the truth. Go against the mainstream, and suddenly things become harder, people point fingers and laugh, you lose friends, have services and aid denied, get ignored, and some people even rush the kids away from you. I've had all these happen to me simply because I am Pagan and proudly wear a pentagram in clear view. I'm sure most homosexuals have had all that and much, much more forms of discrimination towards them. The majority sorely needs to learn that even people who do things differently, and live differently, are actually people just like they are, and not stepping stones, moral/ego boosters, and people to hurt to make you feel better.

Just because something goes against mainstream doesn't make it wrong, especially something as naturally occurring as being homosexual.

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

In this nation, anywhere actually, but especially here, NO ONE should have to work for thier rights and equality. "We the people...all men are created equally and endowed by thier creator with certain unalienable rights." While it's true a large portion of the original committee that signed that declaration were being hypocritical, it is however supposed to be the laws that govern this nation.

 

[Comprehend]

At last, I see the problem. Sorry for my mistake.

no problem. thanks for arguing honestly.

I'm suggesting the government, and society as a whole, needs to rethink this whole marriage business entirely. The current system is imperfect.

I agree. I think that any marriage by consenting adults is none of the governments business.

I would submit that homosexual marriages provide only benefits to society.

I know. I think the last time you said this, I said that while it may be true (or may not), it doesn't provide the particular benefit the government seems to be interested in promoting. I think singing christmas carols only benefits society but the government doesn't give economic benefits for doing it.

If you truly argue this then the burden of proof is on you to show that homosexual marriages do not produce a healthy workforce.

ok. As we both know, homosexual marriages do not produce children at all. In order to produce a healthy workforce, a marriage must first produce a child. While homosexuals may be able to raise children wonderfully (I don't have an opinion on this), they are unable to both create and raise children while heterosexual couples can.

To me, it would be in the best interest of the government if many more people had the ability to adopt and raise children who would otherwise grow up without a family.

I couldn't say you are wrong.


However, I would say that I have produced a legitimate secular argument as the OP requested although as I have been forced to admit, it isn't one I agree with.

 

[McBell]

Excellent example. When women quit doing things that they did every day, they got their way didn't they? How did this get changed? What effected the change? What was done back then might work now for same sex relationships.

The same things that homosexuals are doing today.
Neat coincidence, isn't it?

Are you going to tell me that there is not any discrimination as far as black and white are concerned?

No.
Are you saying that because it won't fix every single problem that it shouldn't have happened?

Is everything fixed? How long has this been going on and how much work has been done to fix the problem that still exists today?

Why should it have taken as much work as it did?

Perhaps Gays and Lesbians want to ride in on the shirt tails of all the hard work the black community has done.

Are you implying that homosexuals have to go through some sort of initiation, like the black community, in order to be treated fairly?

Gays and Lesbians will get their rights some day. They just are not going to be handed to them however. I say you all need to get to work!

Why you think that I am gay is beyond me.


By the way, you completely forgot to respond to:

Please explain how allowing same sex couples to marry treads on the rights of others.