Searching for one secular reason to ban gay marriage

[Mike182]

I am starting to believe that homosexuality is just a part of human evolution and that is why the religious communty is trying so hard to fight it. If evolution is real than what does that say about creation?

that creation happened....?

 

[Moey]

Nowhere did the bible say that he created man in the form of monkeys and that they would evolve later on.

 

[Mike182]

Nowhere did the bible say that he created man in the form of monkeys and that they would evolve later on.

this is for a completely separate debate...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its a scientific fact that a female homosexual will have more testosterone and a male too much femininity! that is why we have homosexuality!

Really? I know a gay man who bashes feminine gays. He claims that just because someone is gay, isn't a reason to act feminine. A manager where I use to work was lesbian. Acted just like any other normal girl, even considered herself a "girly girl."

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in the homelife of many of those who now practice homsexuality, just to see how the same sex parents interacted with the same sex child and vise versa and if there was emotional and pycchological trauma expereinced by either of or both the parents.

The parent might ask the child to get the fly-swatter?
They treat thier children just like a normal child. The lesbian manager I mentioned above is actually quite relieved that her 100% natural children that she gave birth to, are not homosexuals so they don't have to put up with all the hatred she has. They actually a rather normal family.

They are told when people ask or oppose their lifestyle or if they are confronted about it as they evolve into adults that they were born that way,that was how God made them ,that enrages me when I hear people claim they were born that way etc.
There has been no proof and there will not be any physiological proof that men and women were born that way.
I have never heard any who practice that lifestyle claim they quite possibly were influenced by peers,family ,freinds or those of the lifestyle.

Quite possible you have never heard that they were influenced because they aren't. Thier are dozens of research papers showing evidence that sexual orientation is genetic, dating back to even the 90's.
http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519
This article, from a Christian source, claims it isn't genetics, but it's still not a choice;
http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/causesc37.php

I did not verify to see how credible the first and third article are. But if you want to research this, go to a library, a university library if possible, and look into this. You will find thier are plenty of articles that support it being genetic, and just as many that claim that to be false, and will have other thoeries than just choice.

It enrages me when people put words into other's mouths, and would say a homosexual chose to be that way, when the person that said that is not a homosexual, and thus not in the proper position to say so.
Seriously, go talk to a few homosexuals, and be unbiased about it. You will discover had it been a choice, they probably wouldn't have chosen that lifestyle due to the amount of hurt, bigotry, discrimination, and pains that come along with it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Will someone please explain to me why there are men and women who where married and had children and raised families only later in life decided to be gay?

Just because you say it is not a choice, does not convince me one way or the other.

It could be gay propaganda, or it could be for real. Myself, I think there are no absolutes. I believe environment plays a part as much as anything. I am not saying for some people it is not a choice, but everyone who is gay does not possess some kind of gay gene or something. The only proof we have is your word on it.

To hear some people explain this is almost like they are rationalizing to themselves.

I guess to receive protected status, you must not make it a choice or anyone could choose to be a minority any time they like. The blacks should have had it so good.

While I sympathise with the current situation, I find it upsetting that anyone would even dare to compare homophobia to racism. Gay and Lesbians were never slaves or had to take the back seat on the bus. They are not economically repressed or had to live on a certain side of the tracks.

And while it might sicken some of you to have to fight for anything you want in life, that is because you probably had everything handed to you and never had to work for anything in your lives.

This country was founded on certain principles that can give Gays and Lesbians marriage rights.

First off you have to get the state out of the marriage business. You start out not even mentioning gay marriage, you just site the separation of church and state. Once you have accomplished this, you have removed religion from the equation and made it impossible for the religious right to vote on these issues.

Instead of having a parade, how about a march on the capital? How about buying air time for your cause? How about gay candidates? The best I have seen from your so called buddies the democrats is, don't ask don't tell. Doe anyone see just how lame this is?

You talk about how Civil Unions are table scraps, but you do not bargain from a position of strength.

This country was founded on blood sweat and tears. People have to fight for what is right. If that offends you, let me be the first to hand you a crying towel!

I am tired of hearing the whining! Get off your bum and do something besides start a thread that is dishonest as the day is long. I will change my mind if you give me a secular argument, PLEASE. :rainbow1:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

We have members that have protested admirably to help during the civil rights. (Or at least a member, I should say.) I suppose I'm more prone to if they are offended by the comparison or not.

Sometimes bargaining from a position of weakness is the best that people can do. If that's the case, why deride their efforts?

 

[Jaymes]

Reverend Rick, this insinuation that if we're posting here we must not be doing anything else is sickening. Take your assumptions and check them at the door. And that is the most polite thing I can say about that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Will someone please explain to me why there are men and women who where married and had children and raised families only later in life decided to be gay?

Some are just making sure, tried to "cure" themeselves, tried to be normal, and other reasons.

Gay and Lesbians were never slaves or had to take the back seat on the bus. They are not economically repressed or had to live on a certain side of the tracks.

How certain of this are you? Well, the slave part is unlikly, but they are far from having equal oppurtunity. It's not as nearly as bad as it was with blacks, but still far from equality. Just look at the US Military for example. Even if you are in good standing, if you're gay and are outed, you are dishonorable discharged. Good luck finding a job with that on your record.

And thier are people who do fight for this. But it takes money to fight for a cause.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Does anyone see that I am trying to incite some action instead of apathy here?

I have yet to see a pro gay marriage commercial on T.V.

How about a spokes person? I would love to see Sir Elton John or maybe even Ellen DeGeneres. I'm serious. All you folks that are offended, tell me what you have done to fix this situation? Ever start a petition? Start a lobby? Write your congressman?
Just what are you doing?

 

[Reverend Rick]

We have members that have protested admirably to help during the civil rights. (Or at least a member, I should say.) I suppose I'm more prone to if they are offended by the comparison or not.

Sometimes bargaining from a position of weakness is the best that people can do. If that's the case, why deride their efforts?

I'm not trying to deride their efforts Feathers, What I am trying to say is, you have to start somewhere and it is not at the top.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I'm not trying to deride their efforts Feathers, What I am trying to say is, you have to start somewhere and it is not at the top.

Ahhh, I see.

 

[Mike182]

Will someone please explain to me why there are men and women who where married and had children and raised families only later in life decided to be gay?

Just because you say it is not a choice, does not convince me one way or the other.

It could be gay propaganda, or it could be for real. Myself, I think there are no absolutes. I believe environment plays a part as much as anything. I am not saying for some people it is not a choice, but everyone who is gay does not possess some kind of gay gene or something. The only proof we have is your word on it.

To hear some people explain this is almost like they are rationalizing to themselves.

I guess to receive protected status, you must not make it a choice or anyone could choose to be a minority any time they like. The blacks should have had it so good.

i don't think homosexuality as a choice is the issue of debate here, so start a new thread for that and we can have at it.

While I sympathise with the current situation, I find it upsetting that anyone would even dare to compare homophobia to racism. Gay and Lesbians were never slaves or had to take the back seat on the bus. They are not economically repressed or had to live on a certain side of the tracks.

and it sickens me that you have sadistically put a bar up that groups must attain a certain amount of abuse before they deserve rights. you are of course right, gays have not suffered as much as blacks did, but that is totally not the point.

And while it might sicken some of you to have to fight for anything you want in life, that is because you probably had everything handed to you and never had to work for anything in your lives.

yes, i never had to work for my cloths, or my education, or my personal safety. you don't know me at all...

This country was founded on certain principles that can give Gays and Lesbians marriage rights.

First off you have to get the state out of the marriage business. You start out not even mentioning gay marriage, you just site the separation of church and state. Once you have accomplished this, you have removed religion from the equation and made it impossible for the religious right to vote on these issues.

Instead of having a parade, how about a march on the capital? How about buying air time for your cause? How about gay candidates? The best I have seen from your so called buddies the democrats is, don't ask don't tell. Doe anyone see just how lame this is?

i as an individual in the UK can't do anything to help out the US gay cause.

You talk about how Civil Unions are table scraps, but you do not bargain from a position of strength.

yeah, if we were in a position of strength we wouldn't be bargaining at all. get real.

This country was founded on blood sweat and tears. People have to fight for what is right. If that offends you, let me be the first to hand you a crying towel!

yep, let's patronise the efforts of members on this very forum who have been very active in fighting for this cause. nicely done :sarcastic

I am tired of hearing the whining! Get off your bum and do something besides start a thread that is dishonest as the day is long. I will change my mind if you give me a secular argument, PLEASE. :rainbow1:

again, patronising members of this forum who have been very active for this cause.

i am bored with your pathetic attempts to shrug of inequality as only being the problem of those who are being discriminated against, it is something all peoples should be concerned about.

Edit: i'm walking away from this thread, it just isn't worth my time to be offended on every page when i could be putting my efforts elsewhere.

 

[standing_alone]

Will someone please explain to me why there are men and women who where married and had children and raised families only later in life decided to be gay?

Many homosexuals get married because that is what is expected by society. Many do it hoping that their homosexual feelings will go away. Most of them discover that this doesn't work for them; they can't make those feelings go away.

Just because you say it is not a choice, does not convince me one way or the other.

It could be gay propaganda, or it could be for real. Myself, I think there are no absolutes. I believe environment plays a part as much as anything. I am not saying for some people it is not a choice, but everyone who is gay does not possess some kind of gay gene or something. The only proof we have is your word on it.

Well, I can assure you I did not choose to be gay. Whether it is due to some genetic factor or the environment, I did not choose this. I don't see what's wrong with me being gay. I'm not hurting anybody. I just want to find a partner to settle down with for the rest of my life and to have that partner be protected and secure, just as a heterosexual couple can do. Is that so horrible?

While I sympathise with the current situation, I find it upsetting that anyone would even dare to compare homophobia to racism. Gay and Lesbians were never slaves or had to take the back seat on the bus. They are not economically repressed or had to live on a certain side of the tracks.

While the treatment of gays and lesbians compared to blacks may be different, bigotry is bigotry and no one deserves to be victimized because of something that should be so trivial as sexual orientation or skin color.

Many gay and lesbian youth are homeless because their wonderful Christian parents have thrown them out of the house. Several hate crimes have occured on my college campus alone in the last couple of years; over a dozen students have either transferred or dropped out of school this year alone because of this and the lack of support and resources from the school. Wonderful, loving Christians come to campus to protest homosexuality every year, their hate speech resulting in an increase in anti-gay activity directly following their protests. My friends and I endure being called slurs and seeing posters put up telling the time and place of the LGBT organization's meetings defaced, destroyed, and ripped to shreds. No, I am not the ancestor of a black slave (though my ancestors were peasants), nor was I forced to sit in the back seat of the bus, nor has my skin tone caused me too many problems, but I still know what it is like to face bigotry.

And while it might sicken some of you to have to fight for anything you want in life, that is because you probably had everything handed to you and never had to work for anything in your lives.

Sir, you are lucky you didn't say this in my physical presence. I've worked hard to get where I am today, was raised in a blue-collar family, and while my parents tried their best to provide me with the things they didn't have, (as they grew up poor) because that's just how wonderful my parents are, I did not get everything handed to me. I know what work is. Just this past summer alone, I worked fifty hours a week, ten hours a day (one of those weeks, injured), in a factory (while teaching cello lessons in the morning) in order to take out less money in loans to pay for school. And I doubt I am alone among my fellow LGBT friends who have worked hard to get where they are today. If only you could meet my friends here at school. You'd probably think twice before making such unfounded statements. Just thinking of my hard-working friends, working both jobs and doing school and fighting for equality makes me very angry that you would say something like this about them. Yes, sir, you are lucky you didn't say this to my face.

First off you have to get the state out of the marriage business. You start out not even mentioning gay marriage, you just site the separation of church and state. Once you have accomplished this, you have removed religion from the equation and made it impossible for the religious right to vote on these issues.

There is no reason for the religious right to be involved in civil (secular) marriage to begin with. There is no need to do this. The religious right need to get a grip and understand we are not living in a theocracy and they have no right to go about imposing their out-dated morality on an entire country.

Instead of having a parade, how about a march on the capital? How about buying air time for your cause? How about gay candidates? The best I have seen from your so called buddies the democrats is, don't ask don't tell. Doe anyone see just how lame this is?

There have been gay marches. I believe that more are being organized. There are gay representatives. Tammy Baldwin, from my state, is a lesbian Congresswoman. Barney Frank is another gay Congressmen, from Massachusettes. I believe there are or have been others. During the fight to keep hate out of the state constitution here in Wisconsin, there were ads playing on the TV all the time, especially during Packer games (which get a high rate of viewers). The Democrats are by no means friendly to the gay and lesbian community, but they have treated us better than the Republicans.

This country was founded on blood sweat and tears. People have to fight for what is right. If that offends you, let me be the first to hand you a crying towel!

I am tired of hearing the whining! Get off your bum and do something besides start a thread that is dishonest as the day is long. I will change my mind if you give me a secular argument, PLEASE. :rainbow1:

I'll just second what Jaymes said, here:

Reverend Rick, this insinuation that if we're posting here we must not be doing anything else is sickening. Take your assumptions and check them at the door. And that is the most polite thing I can say about that.

Thanks for putting it all so nice and concise like that, Jaymes.

 

[Gentoo]

Will someone please explain to me why there are men and women who where married and had children and raised families only later in life decided to be gay?

Just because you say it is not a choice, does not convince me one way or the other.

It could be gay propaganda, or it could be for real. Myself, I think there are no absolutes. I believe environment plays a part as much as anything. I am not saying for some people it is not a choice, but everyone who is gay does not possess some kind of gay gene or something. The only proof we have is your word on it.

To hear some people explain this is almost like they are rationalizing to themselves.

I guess to receive protected status, you must not make it a choice or anyone could choose to be a minority any time they like. The blacks should have had it so good.

While I sympathise with the current situation, I find it upsetting that anyone would even dare to compare homophobia to racism. Gay and Lesbians were never slaves or had to take the back seat on the bus. They are not economically repressed or had to live on a certain side of the tracks.

And while it might sicken some of you to have to fight for anything you want in life, that is because you probably had everything handed to you and never had to work for anything in your lives.

This country was founded on certain principles that can give Gays and Lesbians marriage rights.

First off you have to get the state out of the marriage business. You start out not even mentioning gay marriage, you just site the separation of church and state. Once you have accomplished this, you have removed religion from the equation and made it impossible for the religious right to vote on these issues.

Instead of having a parade, how about a march on the capital? How about buying air time for your cause? How about gay candidates? The best I have seen from your so called buddies the democrats is, don't ask don't tell. Doe anyone see just how lame this is?

You talk about how Civil Unions are table scraps, but you do not bargain from a position of strength.

This country was founded on blood sweat and tears. People have to fight for what is right. If that offends you, let me be the first to hand you a crying towel!

I am tired of hearing the whining! Get off your bum and do something besides start a thread that is dishonest as the day is long. I will change my mind if you give me a secular argument, PLEASE. :rainbow1:

Perhaps you can explain how Christ's message of unconditional love and understanding became exclusive and conditional?

 

[lilithu]

This is true. Whose tradition is it?

But really, I do think the whole anti-homosexual thing is based on gender roles that are being challenged.

I agree. :yes: Which is why (in response to another thread) the BGLT community should be interested in women's rights, just as straight women should be interested in BGLT equality. The two are linked. What's at stake here is the idea of the perceived roles that "men" and "women" play in society, and whether they should be prescribed, and who gets to do it.

 

[roli]

I am starting to believe that homosexuality is just a part of human evolution and that is why the religious communty is trying so hard to fight it. If evolution is real than what does that say about creation?

Homosexuality is absolutely a product of evolutionary thinking,no doubt.
If we just randomly appeared by natural selection than everything goes and thus we have perversion and everythingelse that entails inmorality such as,incest,beastiality,s&m,murder,theft the list goes on.
If we can't see this then there is no hope for our future as a civilized society ,it's pretty much what we expereince now across the globe.
With an evolutionary view than we are mere animals with animal like instincts and we must by complusion carry out such animal like behaviors with no restraints,no morals,no ethics no boundaries etc. for that is what we were intended for.

So those who hold such views must defend such immoral and unatural behaviors,calling it good ,normal and acceptable

We have not begun to see the full effects of that animal like instinctive behavior encroaching upon society.

God help us !!!!!!

 

[UnTheist]

Here we go again...

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Homosexuality is absolutely a product of evolutionary thinking,no doubt.
If we just randomly appeared by natural selection than everything goes and thus we have perversion and everythingelse that entails inmorality such as,incest,beastiality,s&m,murder,theft the list goes on.
If we can't see this then there is no hope for our future as a civilized society ,it's pretty much what we expereince now across the globe.
With an evolutionary view than we are mere animals with animal like instincts and we must by complusion carry out such animal like behaviors with no restraints,no morals,no ethics no boundaries etc. for that is what we were intended for.

So those who hold such views must defend such immoral and unatural behaviors,calling it good ,normal and acceptable

We have not begun to see the full effects of that animal like instinctive behavior encroaching upon society.

God help us !!!!!!

Here's the thing, you are focusing on the sexual part of homosexuality. Homosexuality is not just sexual. It is about loving another human. How is that a perversion?! How is it immoral?

We are animals. There is no escaping that. in order to maintain a secular view of this issue, it must be accepted.

We are moral animals, yes. We have spirituality, and philosophy, and science. But our instincts--our desires--are the same as any animal. But having them is not a perversion! It is instead, natural. And they include sexual desire as well as love and companionship.

 

[roli]

Perhaps you can explain how Christ's message of unconditional love and understanding became exclusive and conditional?

There is a difference between lust and love and that is definitely something Jesus was opposed to.

It's interesting how Jesus is viewed as being tolerant towards immorality ,unantural acts of sexual behavior.

The question is what Jesus are to attempting to quote.
Don't make be pull up scripture,as that is disallowed by popular opinion on this thread.
The gospel always did and always will expose truth and error,light and darkness.
That is why if we can keep him out of any or all topics our consciences won't be working on us.

 

[roli]

Here's the thing, you are focusing on the sexual part of homosexuality. Homosexuality is not just sexual. It is about loving another human. How is that a perversion?! How is it immoral?

We are animals. There is no escaping that. in order to maintain a secular view of this issue, it must be accepted.

We are moral animals, yes. We have spirituality, and philosophy, and science. But our instincts--our desires--are the same as any animal. But having them is not a perversion! It is instead, natural. And they include sexual desire as well as love and companionship.

Sin caused such behaviors, Jesus only came to change that carnal erotic ,sensual,indulgent nature,but man loves the pleasures of sin ,but according to God only for a season