Second Coming

[Feedmysheep]

Fair enough.

When I said "I think you have been sold a bill of goods by Christianity" I was not talking about any Christians who may have disappointed you, I was referring to the actual doctrines of Christianity.

Of course other Baha'is have disappointed me, but the actual doctrines of the Baha'i Faith have never disappointed me.

But above all the Christian life is a living. That is a living in union with
the living Christ. Less than great interpretations are not as damaging as failure to express Christ in living.
James says all the teachers can make mistakes and will receive greater judgment. (James 3:1,2)

What are are your, let's say, two most flagrant examples of wrong doctrines that have misled me?
I might agree with you. Then again I might not.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Still waiting, tell me when he arrives please.

There will be no need for that.

 

[Feedmysheep]

When I die a new existence will begin. New universe, new everything. Evidence? Nope

This saying kind of makes God a God of death. I mean you're saying one has to DIE in order
to receive salvation.

Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all men are living. (Luke 20:38)

Doesn't this concept of death to know salvation
short change human nature? Doesn't this make our death more important than our living?

 

[Feedmysheep]

John 14 is part of the Farewell Discourse, which Jesus gave to his disciples after the Last Supper in Jerusalem, the night before his crucifixion.

As is chapters 15,16, and 17 also His last words before His accomplishing eternal redemption through His death on His cross.

However, they are also His "Hello!" to the disciples as well. It is His preparing them to live by His invisible presence
while He is away.

This being away is TEMPORARY. It is not forever.

John 14
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

I don't think your view is accurate for two reasons.

1.) They did physically see Him for aome forty days off and on after His resurrection.

2.) The seeing there probably includes a "seeing" as Paul says "the eyes of your heart being enlightened."

The day came in the privacy of my living room that I "saw" that Jesus was Lord.
That was a cataclysmic seeing of my spiritual eyes.

I cannot tell you over the next year how exciting it was to have the pages of the New Testament
simply glow with meaning I previously had not known. At first I didn't want to read the Bible.
Instead I started to read Reinhold Niebuhr's "The Nature and the Destiny of Man". He was a German theologian.

But I had no grounding in the Bible to have a understanding of what he was so sophisticatedly saying.
But it sounded philosohically smart. And I wanted to be a smart conversationist about my new faith.
Eventually I prayed that I didn't understand what I was reading at all.
Then the Holy Spirit impressed me - "Why don't you read the Bible?"

I thought to myself "Well I humbled myself to call on the name of the Lord Jesus. "Lord Jesus take me home. I'm tired."
So I thought I could humble myself to read that old Bible too.
That was the beginning of a life long adventure into the light. As I read, here and there I said "I understand that. I know what that
is talking about."

Now latter I discovered that the main things I remembered from reading Neibuhr's book was when he was quoting from
the New Testament. I remember him saying at the end of the book essentially what is in Romans 8:35-39. But I didn't know he
was repeating what Paul wrote.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers
Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For some reason that really stuck with me as a powerful conclusion to his book "The Nature and the Destiny of Man."

The other thing I remember was two paragraph heading to a certain chapter which read something like this -
Grace As God's Power Over Man & Grace as God's Power Within Man

If you've read me down to this point, thanks.
Anyway, that's how I got started on my beautiful Christian journey over 50 years ago.

This is Jesus saying that the world will not see Him again (no more) because Jesus knew He was going to die on the cross and ascend to Heaven.
But Jesus told his disciples that they see Him, meaning that they know Him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I said that if you think Matt. 24:44 refers to Jesus, either Jesus is a bold-faced liar or the Bible is inaccurate, since Jesus said he was no more in this world.
I do not think Jesus was a bold-faced liar because I do not believe that Matt. 24:44 refers to Jesus.

I see. I may comment latter.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Fair enough.

When I said "I think you have been sold a bill of goods by Christianity" I was not talking about any Christians who may have disappointed you, I was referring to the actual doctrines of Christianity.

But that is really where the meat of it is. By their fruits you shall know them.
I'll examine your examples of wrong teachings if you offer them.

I suspect that you'll count them are wrong according to seeing everything through the lense of some other writings -
like the sayings of Baháʼu'lláh. I mean like a Mormon would see bad teaching in the New Testament looking through
the lense of the Book of Mormon. Or a Jehovah's Witness would see bad teaching in the NT when seeing it through the Watchtower teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

What are are your, let's say, two most flagrant examples of wrong doctrines that have misled me?
I might agree with you. Then again I might not.

Here are four:

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is the only way to God
3. Jesus rose from the dead
4. Jesus is going to return to earth

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is really where the meat of it is. By their fruits you shall know them.

Those verses refer to prophets.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

I'll examine your examples of wrong teachings if you offer them.

I suspect that you'll count them are wrong according to seeing everything through the lense of some other writings -
like the sayings of Baháʼu'lláh.

I just offered some examples of teachings I believe are false (1-4).

Yes, I do look at them as a Baha'i, but that is not the only lens I look through.

 

[Jimmy]

This saying kind of makes God a God of death. I mean you're saying one has to DIE in order
to receive salvation.

Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all men are living. (Luke 20:38)

Doesn't this concept of death to know salvation
short change human nature? Doesn't this make our death more important than our living?

Someone has to be the catalyst for a new beginning. When I die it will be 1979 and I will be 5 yrs old. Eternal life for us all.
I don’t think you’re understanding me correctly. My death affects all of existence and all living things.

 

[Trailblazer]

As is chapters 15,16, and 17 also His last words before His accomplishing eternal redemption through His death on His cross.

However, they are also His "Hello!" to the disciples as well. It is His preparing them to live by His invisible presence
while He is away.

This being away is TEMPORARY. It is not forever.

As is chapters 14, 15,16, and 17 also His last words before His death on His cross and ascension to Heaven.
No More means never again so His absence from this world was permanent, not temporary.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

I don't think your view is accurate for two reasons.

1.) They did physically see Him for some forty days off and on after His resurrection.

As you must already know, I don't believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.
Jesus knew that was the last time He would be in the world so that is why He said he would be No More in the world.

After Jesus died and ascended to heaven men wrote stories about how Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus had nothing to do with those stories that were written about Him.

2.) The seeing there probably includes a "seeing" as Paul says "the eyes of your heart being enlightened."

The day came in the privacy of my living room that I "saw" that Jesus was Lord.
That was a cataclysmic seeing of my spiritual eyes.

I can agree that there is a "seeing" with spiritual eyes.
I do not believe Jesus is Lord. God is the Lord and Jesus is not God so Jesus is not the Lord.
I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. God was manifest in the flesh but God did not become flesh, so Jesus was not God incarnate.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers
Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nobody except ourselves can separate us from the love of Christ
Nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus and the other Manifestations of God.

Jesus is not our Lord and Jesus did not want to be worshiped as our Lord. God is our Lord. That is why Jesus said the following:

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

If you've read me down to this point, thanks.
Anyway, that's how I got started on my beautiful Christian journey over 50 years ago.

I got started on my Baha'i journey over 50 years ago. Had I not done so I would never have known about Jesus, since it was Baha'u'llah glorifying Jesus that really got my attention and made me realize what Jesus did for us as individuals and His effect upon the whole world.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

It was only after I read what Baha'u'llah said about Jesus that I was curious enough to read the New Testament and learn more about Jesus.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Here are four:

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is the only way to God
3. Jesus rose from the dead
4. Jesus is going to return to earth

Hey, that's not what the Bible says.
I definitely disagree with all four of your examples.
And to add, you were wrong that Christ has no heavenly ministry today.

1.) To believe that Jesus is God is not to disbelieve that He is a man. He is God-man.

2.) I believe that If anyone in the world comes to God it will because of Jesus.
I said it will be because of Christ Himself. I didn't say it will necessarily be because of the religion of "Christianity."
I think there is a difference.

3.) If Jesus did not rise from the dead then the entire Bible is useless.
You can eat and drink and do whatever. For tomorrow we all die and rot.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life - the divine and uncreated indestructible eternal life of God.

4.) Yes Christ will return to establish His kingdom.
As sure as you eat a piece of toast, you and I will stand before Him.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I got started on my Baha'i journey over 50 years ago. Had I not done so I would never have known about Jesus, since it was Baha'u'llah glorifying Jesus that really got my attention and made me realize what Jesus did for us as individuals and His effect upon the whole world.

Anyone who since Christ lived, died, and rose from the dead, who desires to start a new faith cannot ignore Jesus Christ.

Neither Mohammed, not Baha'u' llah, or Sun Myung Moon, or Joseph Smith, or Mary Baker Eddy, or Charles Russell, or Elijah Muhammed, or whoever -
No one since Christ wanting to start a religion can resist the temptation to attempt teaching "Oh we believe in Jesus Christ too, you know?"

They all try to somehow bring Christ under their banner.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Trailbalzer, I read your small article. It was 100% flattery.

The man is in envious and jealous competition with the Son of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey, that's not what the Bible says.
I definitely disagree with all four of your examples.
And to add, you were wrong that Christ has no heavenly ministry today.

Of course Christ has a heavenly ministry today, they are called Christians.

1.) To believe that Jesus is God is not to disbelieve that He is a man. He is God-man.

I do not believe that Jesus was only a man. I believe he was a man with a two-fold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine, so in that sense, Jesus was a God-man.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

2.) I believe that If anyone in the world comes to God it will because of Jesus.
I said it will be because of Christ Himself. I didn't say it will necessarily be because of the religion of "Christianity."
I think there is a difference.

Then how do you explain how believers who don't believe in Jesus came to God? Are you saying that the Jews did not come to God?
Are you saying that nobody of any other religion that doesn't believe in Jesus did not come to God some other way?

3.) If Jesus did not rise from the dead then the entire Bible is useless.
You can eat and drink and do whatever. For tomorrow we all die and rot.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life - the divine and uncreated indestructible eternal life of God.

No, that is absolutely not true. The resurrection is completely unnecessary for Jesus to have been who He was.
What Jesus did to save us has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection. The resurrection was an add-on.

But the worst thing about believing in the resurrection is that Christians believe they too will rise from their physical graves.
You can eat and drink and do whatever. For tomorrow all our physical bodies are going to die and rot. When they die and rot God will give us all new bodies, spiritual bodies that are suited to live forever in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

4.) Yes Christ will return to establish His kingdom.
As sure as you eat a piece of toast, you and I will stand before Him.

Jesus will never return to establish a kingdom. As the return of Christ promised by Jesus, Baha'u'llah has already laid the groundwork for the kingdom of God on earth.

I know I will never convince any Christian that Jesus is not coming back, but they will find out after they die and ascend to heaven and see Jesus, and Jesus tells them that he never planned to return to earth.

You are attached to the physical body of Jesus, to the man, not to the Spirit of Christ. I find that very sad.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailbalzer, I read your small article. It was 100% flattery.

The man is in envious and jealous competition with the Son of God.

Nothing could be funnier.

Jesus was the Son of God, but Baha'u'llah was the Father.
Baha'u'llah had nothing to be jealous of. The Father is not jealous of the Son.

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’”
(Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” T
(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 54-67

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone who since Christ lived, died, and rose from the dead, who desires to start a new faith cannot ignore Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not rise from the dead but Christians have to believe that so they can claim their religion is superior. It's sad really.

Anyone who since Christ lived, died, and ascended to heaven, who desires to start a new faith cannot ignore Jesus Christ.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Those verses refer to prophets.

Yes.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Amen to that.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Amen to that.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

I just offered some examples of teachings I believe are false (1-4).

Yes, I do look at them as a Baha'i, but that is not the only lens I look through.

What is God like to you in your experience?
If you know God, what is it like to know God?

 

[Feedmysheep]

Nothing could be funnier.

Touches your funny bone ?
I assure you that I can make it a lot less amusing.

Jesus was the Son of God, but Baha'u'llah was the Father.

You just told me that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
How many passages in the NT say that the Father raised the Son of God from the dead?

You cannot expect a Bible reading Christian like myself to be influenced by this concept of yours.

Baha'u'llah had nothing to be jealous of. The Father is not jealous of the Son.

The Father is not jealous of the Son.
But this man is envious of Jesus and wishes to utilize the NT to put forth an antichrist denial of the Son.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is God like to you in your experience?
If you know God, what is it like to know God?

I don't think anyone can ever know the Essence of God. All we can ever know are the Attributes of God and the Will of God for any given age.
The Attributes of God are known through the Manifestations of God who are mirror images of God.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertained to Jesus, all His acts and doings, were identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just told me that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
How many passages in the NT say that the Father raised the Son of God from the dead?

I don't know. How many say that?
Baha'u'llah was not literally God the Father but He is called the Father since He came in the station of the Father.
Likewise, Jesus was not literally the Son of God, since God does not have biological children, but Jesus is called the Son because He came in the station of the Son.

You cannot expect a Bible reading Christian like myself to be influenced by this concept of yours.

I certainly don't expect that. I am only imparting information.

The Father is not jealous of the Son.
But this man is envious of Jesus and wishes to utilize the NT to put forth an antichrist denial of the Son.

Show me where Baha'u'llah utilized the NT to put forth an antichrist denial of the Son.
How is the following passage a denial of the Son? Rather, it is a glorification of the Son, so you have that backwards.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

 

[Feedmysheep]

I don't know. How many say that?

Let's see a few verses on Christ's resurrection.

This man, delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, through the hand of lawless men, nailed to a cross and killed; Whom God has raised up, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Acts 2:23,24)

This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses. (v. 32)

And the Author of life you killed, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15)