Seeing That Women Can Go Topless Now Do You Suppose A Lot More Rapes Will Happen?

[DallasApple]

I'm glad your fantasy about men is not the reality about men.

I don't believe its "men" .I think unfortunately though their are "enough" who act that way and BLAME it on the women and it can cloud your perception about "all men".

Its also in some of the "teachings" as well.Societal messages in general as well as within religions.The ole...not "causing' the other to "stumble" speak.This is specifically relating to women being "modest" in dress so as not to "cause a man " to lust ..or worse.

There was a guy here one time ..it must be that "internet misogynist" mask..because I could not believe what he said just outright.Don't quote me word for word..but ..

Men are like hungry animals so if you don't want to get raped don't put a piece of meat in front of him.

So what Marie 'thinks" about men could be from her experiences and the **** spewed by even men themselves.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't believe its "men" .I think unfortunately though their are "enough" who act that way and BLAME it on the women and it can cloud your perception about "all men".

Its also in some of the "teachings" as well.Societal messages in general as well as within religions.The ole...not "causing' the other to "stumble" speak.This is specifically relating to women being "modest" in dress so as not to "cause a man " to lust ..or worse.

There was a guy here one time ..it must be that "internet misogynist" mask..because I could not believe what he said just outright.Don't quote me word for word..but ..

Men are like hungry animals so if you don't want to get raped don't put a piece of meat in front of him.

So what Marie 'thinks" about men could be from her experiences and the **** spewed by even men themselves.

There's no doubt that this is pervasive in cultural thought, but what is being argued against the thought is that it isn't so much that it's simply untrue, but that the perspective is a fantasy rape scenario. The reality is much different, though myths have lasted for a long time in many a culture around the world....rape myths are no different in that regard.

 

[DallasApple]

but that the perspective is a fantasy rape scenario.

what I'm thinking is that people are actually raped because of this cultural thought.So there is nothing "fantasy" about it.

Maybe Im dull and Im not getting the concept of "rape fantasy" because its not a "fantasy" I have ever had.

Do you mean like "lies about what rape is and why it happens"? As a means to "get away with raping" in your own head?(not YOUR head but in the rapist and the raped).

Because people actually have "rape fantasy" and "play" like they are raping each other and they are not.You know like "playing a role" .(Acting) .

 

[Sunstone]

I think it's because too many people (men and women) have rape wank fantasies. It's next to impossible for them to separate their wank fantasy from the reality of rape. In fantasy rape, the lust is just too overpowering, the object of affection way too sexy. That's why I prefer the term "sexual assault". Practically nobody has sexual assault wank fantasies.

I think you could be onto part of it. I strongly agree that people can have difficulty separating their wank fantasies from the reality of rape. Hell, we've seen that several times on this very forum -- especially, it seems to me, in the case of young men.

But having said that, I think it would be foolish to disregard the very often overlooked fact that many people -- or more likely, most people -- do not assess whether something is true or not based primarily on whether it is supported with a weight of logical reasoning and empirical evidence. That's just not how human psychology usually works when it comes to assessing truth values.

Instead, they primarily rely on how they feel about a truth claim. And how they feel about a truth claim usually comes down to what might be called folk logic or reasoning. That is, if for some reason, it seems to be truth, if for some reason, it appears to be true, then convincing them that it is not true is a chore for Titans. Throw in all their cognitive biases for kicks.

I think the notion that men can get so horny that they can't help it at times but to rape people seems or appears to be true in part because of what you've said -- that is, it jives with rape fantasy -- and in part for other reasons. Among those reasons might be that the simple notion that being too horny seems or appears to explain why someone might force another person to have sex with them.

 

[Sunstone]

what I'm thinking is that people are actually raped because of this cultural thought.So there is nothing "fantasy" about it.

Maybe Im dull and Im not getting the concept of "rape fantasy" because its not a "fantasy" I have ever had.

Do you mean like "lies about what rape is and why it happens"? As a means to "get away with raping" in your own head?(not YOUR head but in the rapist and the raped).

Because people actually have "rape fantasy" and "play" like they are raping each other and they are not.You know like "playing a role" .(Acting) .

Rape fantasy -- studies have shown beyond reasonable doubt that one of the most popular sexual fantasies with both men and women (but perhaps especially with women! O the irony!) are fantasies of getting raped. For some reason, they are turn ons to vast numbers of people.

The argument being made here, and I think the argument has a great deal of plausibility, is that many people cannot figure out that their fantasies of rape bear little or no significant resemblance to real rape. More importantly, their fantasies amount to "cleaned up", sanitized versions of rape. Rape for the genteel soul. And in their fantasies the motives for rape are sometimes not similar to the motives for real rape. Hence, people who cannot distinguish between fantasy rape and real rape might not understand the motives for real rape because they think those motives are the same as the motives of fantasy rape.

Put differently, when you fantasize about rape, you are most likely doing so because you are horny and it's a kink of yours. But when you really rape someone, you are most likely doing so because you want to dominate and humiliate them. Two different things, two different motives.

 

[Sunstone]

I only wish men were mindless, lust-driven automatons. *sigh*. If only.

When can I come over?

 

[DallasApple]

Instead, they primarily rely on how they feel about a truth claim.

I agree..but I do think a lot of that could be "based on real life experience"...So its hard (yes MYSELF included) to not believe to be true .

[QUOTEI think the notion that men can get so horny that they can't help it at times but to rape people seems or appears to be true in part because of what you've said -- that is, it jives with rape fantasy -- and in part for other reasons. Among those reasons might be that the simple notion that being too horny seems or appears to explain why someone might force another person to have sex with them.][/QUOTE]

I think its more like they "can help it" but they don't because its "hard" (no pun intended) so really simply its an "excuse".

I gave an example of it on another thread.I don't think the man "wanted" to rape.But he raped and said "he got carried away".And it was about sexual gratification IMHO regardless the fact "force" or "refusal to stop" was used.I think in some cases it can be WANTING what you want and getting it and nothing is going to stop you.Even if in your deepest "soul" you know its rape.

I think of the hot and heavy teenagers even "in the act" and she says "stop" and he says "I cant" or "just one more minute" she says no stop it hurts" its ignored...

But if suddenly say the dad walked the room with a shot gun he would be able to stop immediately.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

what I'm thinking is that people are actually raped because of this cultural thought.So there is nothing "fantasy" about it.

I follow the distinction that the act itself of rape has nothing to do with sex. People will get horny, yes, but what qualifies rape as an assault is that it is violence. The rape fantasy is a powerful motif, and it's written about all the time, thought about, wished for, joked about, etc. and it follows the notion that males are the only ones who rape, and that sex is something that happens to women that is initiated by men.

Couple that with the confusion on using the word sex in the description of the assault, and we have a lot of people who honestly think that sexual desire plays into rape.

Maybe Im dull and Im not getting the concept of "rape fantasy" because its not a "fantasy" I have ever had.

The fantasy is that someone becomes so overwhelmed with desire that they can't control themselves. The reality is that someone has targeted another person to bend to their will and the victim is dehumanized, and then (according to the definition given by the FBI) penetrated without consent.

Do you mean like "lies about what rape is and why it happens"? As a means to "get away with raping" in your own head?(not YOUR head but in the rapist and the raped).

Because people actually have "rape fantasy" and "play" like they are raping each other and they are not.You know like "playing a role" .(Acting) .

What I'm offering is a very clear distinction between rape and sex. And that distinction is consent. People have all kinds of play, fantasies, role-playing during their sexual escapades that include the fantasy of rape where one can't control his/her desires. But the reality has nothing to do with that fantasy of uncontrollable desire. The reality puts the onus back on the person who deserves it who is perpetrating the act of violence, and not on the "object of desire", who is the target.

IOW, the rape fantasy offers the perpetrator an excuse and offers others to look at the perpetrator with a level of empathy or compassion when we all identify with overwhelming desire, as well. But when we understand rape to be an act of violence where we don't care about a victims boundaries or consent, it's much more difficult to empathize with the attacker and instead places rape in a context of something that truly is criminal, and not sex that just happened to go too far.

 

[DallasApple]

The fantasy is that someone becomes so overwhelmed with desire that they can't control themselves

Like "extreme passion"??

 

[DallasApple]

[IOW, the rape fantasy offers the perpetrator an excuse and offers others to look at the perpetrator with a level of empathy or compassion when we all identify with overwhelming desire, as well./QUOTE]

Rape sympathizing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I agree..but I do think a lot of that could be "based on real life experience"...So its hard (yes MYSELF included) to not believe to be true .

I think the notion that men can get so horny that they can't help it at times but to rape people seems or appears to be true in part because of what you've said -- that is, it jives with rape fantasy -- and in part for other reasons. Among those reasons might be that the simple notion that being too horny seems or appears to explain why someone might force another person to have sex with them.]

I think its more like they "can help it" but they don't because its "hard" (no pun intended) so really simply its an "excuse".

I gave an example of it on another thread.I don't think the man "wanted" to rape.But he raped and said "he got carried away".And it was about sexual gratification IMHO regardless the fact "force" or "refusal to stop" was used.I think in some cases it can be WANTING what you want and getting it and nothing is going to stop you.Even if in your deepest "soul" you know its rape.

I think of the hot and heavy teenagers even "in the act" and she says "stop" and he says "I cant" or "just one more minute" she says no stop it hurts" its ignored...

But if suddenly say the dad walked the room with a shot gun he would be able to stop immediately.

This sounds like another "what if" scenario, and it's been offered numerous times before here at RF. It's based on uncontrollable desire, which is not the reality. The reality is if someone continues when a partner says stop, it's not because of uncontrollable desire, but because of a blatant disregard for the partners boundaries.

 

[DallasApple]

This sounds like another "what if" scenario, and it's been offered numerous times before here at RF. It's based on uncontrollable desire, which is not the reality. The reality is if someone continues when a partner says stop, it's not because of uncontrollable desire, but because of a blatant disregard for the partners boundaries.

That's actually not a "what if" scenerio Mystic.I was offering it as an example of its BS you "cant' stop.

 

[DallasApple]

I think its more like they "can help it" but they don't because its "hard" (no pun intended) so really simply its an "excuse".

Read this part ..I said they "can help it" ..The proof is when the dad walks in with a shot gun.

If it really can't be helped ..the dad appearing with a shot gun wouldn't make a difference either.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's actually not a "what if" scenerio Mystic.I was offering it as an example of its BS you "cant' stop.

I'm confused, then. Are you arguing that men can't stop, or that they can and should? I was under the impression that you voted affirmatively in the poll with the OP's position that topless women will result in more rapes.

 

[DallasApple]

I used to hear this in my Bible study groups back in college, and was told I needed to dress modestly so that the men around me won't be tempted into doing something they'll regret later. These were women who were telling me this, too, as a warning and to seem more compassionate toward men. Every time I would relate this to other men - whether they were Christian or not - the vast majority of them were horrified to be thought of in that way.

Repeat the fruits of the spirit.If these are not possible for us to achieve would have never been "expected' of us...

Galatians 5:22-23
New International Version (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Not one of them is "don't wear a tight skirt or show too much cleavage.The bolded is in their though.

 

[idav]

This sounds like another "what if" scenario, and it's been offered numerous times before here at RF. It's based on uncontrollable desire, which is not the reality. The reality is if someone continues when a partner says stop, it's not because of uncontrollable desire, but because of a blatant disregard for the partners boundaries.

That is the usual case, that it is about domination not about usually about uncontrollable desires. One has to think that desire is part of the puzzle though just not as something that can't be controlled. Like when a group of football players take advantage of some passed out chick, as if they just couldn't help themselves, as if passed out chicks put out a lot of sexual vibes or something. It is horrid the disgusting things people will do just cause they feel they can get away with it, what is more horrid is when the justice system proves the perps correct.

 

[DallasApple]

I'm confused, then. Are you arguing that men can't stop, or that they can and should? I was under the impression that you voted affirmatively in the poll with the OP's position that topless women will result in more rapes.

I'm saying that men CAN stop and SHOULD.That doesn't mean that more women wont be raped if suddenly we are topless everywhere.

Im arguing that they CAN stop but WON"T and toplessnes will be further "excuse" for more women to be raped .For ALL the same reasons they are now."Couldn't help it' she asked for it...ETC...

Not that they CANT stop.But they WONT is my isue.As long as any BLAME is placed on her and Mystic it IS..that is just a fact.

I don't like it and I don't think its right.I'm just saying we would need a whole 100 years of toplessnes and revamped teachings before more women wouldn't be raped simply because she had exposed breast.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree..but I do think a lot of that could be "based on real life experience"...So its hard (yes MYSELF included) to not believe to be true .

[QUOTEI think the notion that men can get so horny that they can't help it at times but to rape people seems or appears to be true in part because of what you've said -- that is, it jives with rape fantasy -- and in part for other reasons. Among those reasons might be that the simple notion that being too horny seems or appears to explain why someone might force another person to have sex with them.

I think its more like they "can help it" but they don't because its "hard" (no pun intended) so really simply its an "excuse".

I gave an example of it on another thread.I don't think the man "wanted" to rape.But he raped and said "he got carried away".And it was about sexual gratification IMHO regardless the fact "force" or "refusal to stop" was used.I think in some cases it can be WANTING what you want and getting it and nothing is going to stop you.Even if in your deepest "soul" you know its rape.

I think of the hot and heavy teenagers even "in the act" and she says "stop" and he says "I cant" or "just one more minute" she says no stop it hurts" its ignored...

But if suddenly say the dad walked the room with a shot gun he would be able to stop immediately.

Please let me tell you a little story, Dallas. When I was a horny 18 year old I had a friend named Janet. I had lusted after Janet since I was a freshman in high school. And it didn't help that she liked to dress casual but sexy. To this day, I seldom see women wearing clothing more revealing than Janet did. She was also conventionally beautiful. And I knew from my conversations with her that she had had many, many sex partners. Best of all, maybe, was the fact she liked talking with me, and I liked talking with her. So, for a horny 18 year old, she looked like the almost perfect prospect for sex.

One day, Janet was in my room when I just thought and felt I could stand it no longer. I got out of my chair, picked her up (much to her surprise), and carried her to my bed. There, I laid her down, pushed her top up, and began fondling her. This went on for about 30 minutes or an hour -- time seemed to stretch out forever, for some reason. All the while, Janet was trying to talk me out of raping her, but I wasn't listening.

After a long while kissing and fondling her, I tried to put my hand down her shorts. But at that point, Janet got genuinely scared. More scared than I'd ever seen a person in my life up to that time. And she suddenly burst out saying that she would hate me forever if I raped her.

It wasn't her saying she would hate me forever that stopped me right in my tracks. It was the fear in her face and voice. Abruptly, unexpectedly, and without any explanation, I was totally halted by her fear. I realized in an instant that I was terrifying her. And I couldn't, just couldn't, and despite probably having more horny testosterone in my blood than there is water in Lake Michigan, go on.

In part because of that experience, I believe today that rape involves many other factors besides horniness. Maybe horniness plays a part in it. But horniness alone, in my opinion, is not sufficient to "allow" one to rape a person. Horniness alone can be stopped in its tracks even if the would be rapist is highly turned on.

To rape someone you need, I am convinced, to be desensitized to them. You need to be able to ignore the effect you are having on them, their fear and pain. And you probably need a strong sense that you have a right, a privilege to rape them. And along with all that, I think it most likely you need to want to dominate, subjugate, humiliate, or even destroy them. All that and more.

Partly because of my experience with Janet, I simply do not buy into the notion that rape is about horniness alone. If it ever is, then I think it must be extremely rare that it is. Instead, I think rape must almost always (and most likely, always) involve much more than horniness.

 

[DallasApple]

One has to think that desire is part of the puzzle though just not as something that can't be controlled

O personally don't think its something that can not be "controlled" I know it can.And in more aspects of desire than just sexual.

Too many do NOT .Which sorry in that environment? Too many that don't would mean more rapes because of toplessness.

FRIG women here (in the U.S) are deemed disgusting and even called "sluts" for breastfeeding in public..

What it would take is like any 'revolution" ..the front runners to make way for the next generation ...

 

[Sunstone]

Rape sympathizing.

Just as ugly as rape in many ways. I think people who sympathize with rapists are sick. They may not recognize their sickness for what it is, but there is something wrong with their psyche. And I think that's true even though they might be people who would never rape themselves, and even though the reason they sympathize with rapists has a lot to do with rape myths.