Seeking Truth and Seeking Certainty

[Revoltingest]

Then why does certainty itself kill the mind?

Certainty entrenches one's beliefs.
One becomes attached to what one knows, & is less open to alternative understandings.

 

[godnotgod]

MIND or not.........
I think you're all out of your's !
~
'mud

Hey mud! Now you're talking! You have to be out of your mind in order to realize your Enlightenment ha ha!

 

[godnotgod]

Certainty entrenches one's beliefs.
One becomes attached to what one knows, & is less open to alternative understandings.

Oh I see...you mean this in the opposite way. But what I was referring to (re Patanjali) was that a realized state only occurs when the discursive mind is put to rest. Zen people call this overactive mind 'monkey mind', not because it lacks intelligence, but because it is always jumping around, attaching itself to this and then that idea. It can't sit still and just see things as they are, as it is always forming concepts about what it sees, as illustrated in this famous line:

"First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then, there is"

But, you see, one can only 'become attached to what one knows' when the idea of a personal self called 'I' is present; when there exists a 'knower of the known'; an 'experiencer of the experience'. Without this 'I', there is no one there to attach itself to knowing; there is only knowing itself, 'I' being a self-created principle.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh I see...you mean this in the opposite way. But what I was referring to (re Patanjali) was that a realized state only occurs when the discursive mind is put to rest. Zen people call this overactive mind 'monkey mind', not because it lacks intelligence, but because it is always jumping around, attaching itself to this and then that idea. It can't sit still and just see things as they are, as it is always forming concepts about what it sees, as illustrated in this famous line:

"First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then, there is"

But, you see, one can only 'become attached to what one knows' when the idea of a personal self called 'I' is present; when there exists a 'knower of the known'; an 'experiencer of the experience'. Without this 'I', there is no one there to attach itself to knowing; there is only knowing itself, 'I' being a self-created principle.

I'm of the monkey mind.

 

[godnotgod]

I agree that there is only Brahman..

...and Brahman is Pure Consciousness, The Ground of all Being, Pure Abstract Intelligence, The Unified Field, from which Everything comes.

I hope to become one with the character "Dumb Inaction"...

if there is only Brahman, who is this 'I' that wants to become Brahman?

[/QUOTE] "Those who know do not speak of it, those who speak of it do not know it", and "Hence the sage conveys his instructions without the use of speech."[/QUOTE]

 

[godnotgod]

I'm of the monkey mind.

Not a problem, as long as you know the difference.

Who is it that knows it is 'of the monkey mind'?

(Isn't the very nature of 'monkey mind' to 'attach oneself to what one knows'?)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How much of a convergence or of a divergence there is between the two goals?

How consistently so?

Why and under which circunstances?

What is it wise to do as a response to their relationship, if any?

If people were more interested in seeking truth, they'd display a lot less certainty.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

MIND or not.........
I think you're all out of your's !
~
'mud

Don't flatter me...I am till prone to thinking sometimes..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Certainty entrenches one's beliefs.
One becomes attached to what one knows, & is less open to alternative understandings.

It can indeed....though there are examples of certainty beyond belief. But I understand your point..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

...and Brahman is Pure Consciousness, The Ground of all Being, Pure Abstract Intelligence, The Unified Field, from which Everything comes.



if there is only Brahman, who is this 'I' that wants to become Brahman?

"Those who know do not speak of it, those who speak of it do not know it", and "Hence the sage conveys his instructions without the use of speech."

Brahman incarnate..... Brahman loves to reveal the pure Brahman to the reflection of incarnate Brahman through the medium of Brahman.....

 

[godnotgod]

Brahman incarnate..... Brahman loves to reveal the pure Brahman to the reflection of incarnate Brahman through the medium of Brahman.....

Yes but Brahman does not become Brahman since it is already That. There is no 'I' that becomes or is Brahman. There is only Brahman itself.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes but Brahman does not become Brahman since it is already That. There is no 'I' that becomes or is Brahman. There is only Brahman itself.

That's what I said.... and that's what I said last time...and that's what I will say next time.....

 

[godnotgod]

That's what I said.... and that's what I said last time...and that's what I will say next time.....

OK, and that means that, if Brahman is Pure Consciousness, then the mind and the 'I' of Identification, the offspring of Brahman, are but illusions; ie; 'maya'

 

[Ben Dhyan]

OK, and that means that, if Brahman is Pure Consciousness, then mind, the offspring of Brahman, is an illusion; ie; 'maya'

It is the incarnation of...the soul...so if you want to say you and all your 9,966 posts here at RF are maya...that is fine by me...

It cannot be correctly said "I am enlightened" for in enlightenment the illusion of I cannot exist, and if it did there would not be enlightenment. This does not mean enlightenment is not possible, just that no self or identify can be enlightened.

Hey...it has been a while since I've seen a thread on 'who is enlightened' here at RF....there are always some members who claim they are enlightened or believe it is possible...and even some atheists claim to be enlightened.....very few there are who make the point that not only are these people not enlightened, so long as they think they can be..they will continue to be deluded..

 

[Revoltingest]

It can indeed....though there are examples of certainty beyond belief. But I understand your point..

Aye, there are degrees of certainty.
The higher levels require more caution.

 

[godnotgod]

It is the incarnation of...the soul...so if you want to say you and all your 9,966 posts here at RF are maya...that is fine by me...

It cannot be correctly said "I am enlightened" for in enlightenment the illusion of I cannot exist, and if it did there would not be enlightenment. This does not mean enlightenment is not possible, just that no self or identify can be enlightened.

Hey...it has been a while since I've seen a thread on 'who is enlightened' here at RF....there are always some members who claim they are enlightened or believe it is possible...and even some atheists claim to be enlightened.....very few there are who make the point that not only are these people not enlightened, so long as they think they can be..they will continue to be deluded..

There may be 9,966 posts attached to some 'godnotgod' character, but it did not post them; only posting exists, without a poster, since, as there is no 'I' that can be enlightened, so too, there can be no poster of posts. In the same manner, there is no 'whirlpool' that whirls; only whirling water. To insist on a poster of posts is to bite the finger that points to the moon, rather than looking at the moon itself.

No, there is no such 'I' that is enlightened, because Enlightenment is completely transcendent of any such agent of encapsulation or containment. There is only Enlightenment itself. Enlightenment is already the case; only Realization is necessary, without a 'Real-izer' of the Realization, of course.

Those who claim they are enlightened need to be asked the question: "Who is it that thinks themselves enlightened?". Oh, they will be very serious in answering the question, not realizing they are playing the game of Identification, in which they are none other than Brahman pretending to be a self that is enlightened.

The paradox here is that everyone is already enlightened; it's just that they haven't realized it as yet.

I suspect that in the case of atheists, what they are calling 'enlightenment' is not a spiritual transformation of consciousness, but an intensification of the intellect. That is OK within the realm of the thinking mind, and useful, but the kind of Enlightenment you and I are referring to is not what they have attained. While I find the atheist intellectual input on Biblical matters 'enlightening', *cough*, or rather maybe just revealing, I also find it somewhat sterile and one-sided. But the same goes for the theists, who exhibit an overly imaginative picture of things that is also one-sided, many times with gross errors in logic, fair game for the atheists. And so, I find that in both cases, the point has been missed.

Soul? An individual self, personality, character, etc.? Where is it?

 

[godnotgod]

Aye, there are degrees of certainty.
The higher levels require more caution.

I think you and ben d may be talking about two different things. There is certainty in the realm of logic and the intellect, perhaps especially in mathematics. But there is also certainty in the spiritual world, but only as a direct experience of Reality that is non-intellectual in nature.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There may be 9,966 posts attached to some 'godnotgod' character, but it did not post them; only posting exists, without a poster, since, as there is no 'I' that can be enlightened, so too, there can be no poster of posts. In the same manner, there is no 'whirlpool' that whirls; only whirling water. To insist on a poster of posts is to bite the finger that points to the moon, rather than looking at the moon itself.

No, there is no such 'I' that is enlightened, because Enlightenment is completely transcendent of any such agent of encapsulation or containment. There is only Enlightenment itself. Enlightenment is already the case; only Realization is necessary, without a 'Real-izer' of the Realization, of course.

Those who claim they are enlightened need to be asked the question: "Who is it that thinks themselves enlightened?". Oh, they will be very serious in answering the question, not realizing they are playing the game of Identification, in which they are none other than Brahman pretending to be a self that is enlightened.

The paradox here is that everyone is already enlightened; it's just that they haven't realized it as yet.

I suspect that in the case of atheists, what they are calling 'enlightenment' is not a spiritual transformation of consciousness, but an intensification of the intellect. That is OK within the realm of the thinking mind, and useful, but the kind of Enlightenment you and I are referring to is not what they have attained. While I find the atheist intellectual input on Biblical matters 'enlightening', *cough*, or rather maybe just revealing, I also find it somewhat sterile and one-sided. But the same goes for the theists, who exhibit an overly imaginative picture of things that is also one-sided, many times with gross errors in logic, fair game for the atheists. And so, I find that in both cases, the point has been missed.

Soul? An individual self, personality, character, etc.? Where is it?

Hmmm....I hear ya....but a question arises...when you think....what is it that thinks?

Now you ask me about the soul...I use the term as it comes down from Genesis......God incarnate... Now when Brahman incarnates in matter....it results in the human brain mind...an ego mind....this soul comes about through a temporary union of spirit and matter in the form we know as human....at death, the union of released incarnate spirit and universal spirit takes place and union of released mortal fleshly matter and planetary matter..

All else we are in agreement....

 

[godnotgod]

Hmmm....I hear ya....but a question arises...when you think....what is it that thinks?

Yes, of course. That IS the question. Looked for, there is no thinker of thoughts; no 'I' that thinks, and in the very looking, what is it that is looking for the thinker, and then, who is the observer of the act of looking? You see the dilemma? And so, this question has caused Cheri Huber, a Zennist to state:

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"

Put in pipe. Smoke.

The thing is, Brahman, the underlying Reality, as it is playing at being the World, also is at all times trying to awaken from this dream of being the World, and so is always subtly prompting us from within to do so. And so we say that the first phase of this experience is called Hide, and the second phase is Seek. That there is a 'thinker of thoughts' as MY thoughts, is purely conceptual, born of the illusory 'I'.

The Zen approach in dealing with this problem is simply to sit and watch, without attachment to any thoughts that may arise. The more attention is given to thoughts as MY thoughts, the more difficult it becomes to awaken. And so, in time, the thoughts of 'monkey mind' settle down, and at some point, what is termed 'Big Mind' (ie Brahman) comes into play.

Now you ask me about the soul...I use the term as it comes down from Genesis......God incarnate... Now when Brahman incarnates in matter....it results in the human brain mind...an ego mind....this soul comes about through a temporary union of spirit and matter in the form we know as human....at death, the union of released incarnate spirit and universal spirit takes place and union of released mortal fleshly matter and planetary matter..

All else we are in agreement....

The 'ego mind' (ie; 'the soul') that Brahman incarnates into (ie: 'manifests as') is maya. Brahman is playing itself as the world, just as an actor is playing himself as the masked character. The masked character is none other than the actor himself, and in the same manner, the world, or maya, is none other than Brahman Itself. This is in keeping with the idea that there is only Brahman. So in reality, there is no such 'soul'; it's just an illusion that Brahman is manifesting Itself as.

We now see virtually the same thing occurring on the Quantum level. We have now found out that virtually ALL of the mass of the atom is being created by fluctuations in the Quantum and HIggs Fields, meaning that such mass is not real, but virtual in nature, rendering all of the 'material' world as virtual in nature as well. Does this sound like maya to you?

So, you see, once it is fully realized that there is no self; no 'soul' to be concerned about, many of the problems involving anxiety we experience as human beings literally vanish.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, of course. That IS the question. Looked for, there is no thinker of thoughts; no 'I' that thinks, and in the very looking, what is it that is looking for the thinker, and then, who is the observer of the act of looking? You see the dilemma? And so, this question has caused Cheri Huber, a Zennist to state:

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"

Put in pipe. Smoke.

The thing is, Brahman, the underlying Reality, as it is playing at being the World, also is at all times trying to awaken from this dream of being the World, and so is always subtly prompting us from within to do so. And so we say that the first phase of this experience is called Hide, and the second phase is Seek. That there is a 'thinker of thoughts' as MY thoughts, is purely conceptual, born of the illusory 'I'.

The Zen approach in dealing with this problem is simply to sit and watch, without attachment to any thoughts that may arise. The more attention is given to thoughts as MY thoughts, the more difficult it becomes to awaken. And so, in time, the thoughts of 'monkey mind' settle down, and at some point, what is termed 'Big Mind' (ie Brahman) comes into play.



The 'ego mind' (ie; 'the soul') that Brahman incarnates into (ie: 'manifests as') is maya. Brahman is playing itself as the world, just as an actor is playing himself as the masked character. The masked character is none other than the actor himself, and in the same manner, the world, or maya, is none other than Brahman Itself. This is in keeping with the idea that there is only Brahman. So in reality, there is no such 'soul'; it's just an illusion that Brahman is manifesting Itself as.

We now see virtually the same thing occurring on the Quantum level. We have now found out that virtually ALL of the mass of the atom is being created by fluctuations in the Quantum and HIggs Fields, meaning that such mass is not real, but virtual in nature, rendering all of the 'material' world as virtual in nature as well. Does this sound like maya to you?

So, you see, once it is fully realized that there is no self; no 'soul' to be concerned about, many of the problems involving anxiety we experience as human beings literally vanish.

Well fine...what is the difference from calling the thinker 'I', or 'soul', or 'Brahman the actor'...they are just three concept representing the same aspect of reality?

Now it is not so simple as the monkey mind settling down...even when the mind is still....there may be the presence of physical pain....progressive though non-terminal chronic pain for which there may be no relief or cure that keeps the illusion of the soul alive.. Such a wretched state may be merely a karmic phase of the realization process....but it is certainly a reminder that the peace of pure Brahman is not to be found while there remains errors of the soul/mind...