Seeking Truth and Seeking Certainty

[Desert Snake]

Units of maya? Show me how the mind's dualistic perception is a unit of maya?

Unit means label, in this context. It's what we're calling it. ''It'', /dualism, in this case, is a many faceted aspect of maya. Duality itself neither creates, nor replicates. The dualism, is what /people/, are formulating.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Unit means label, in this context. It's what we're calling it. ''It'', /dualism, in this case, is a many faceted aspect of maya. Duality itself neither creates, nor replicates. The dualism, is what /people/, are formulating.

I think you had better reflect on what the concept of duality is meant to represent in the context of non-duality...Brahman. Brahman is one....there is not a second....duality arises when a mind abstracts from the oneness, the apparent differentiated aspects.. This mental abstraction can only take place in a mind that functions in a state of not being Brahman...and thus duality arises due to the perception of "I" as being a separate independent entity to the one existence....the 'not I'. This secondary mind sees existence dualistically and thus mortals live in a state of maya...illusion...

 

[Desert Snake]

I think you had better reflect on what the concept of duality is meant to represent in the context of non-duality...Brahman. Brahman is one....there is not a second....duality arises when a mind abstracts from the oneness, the apparent differentiated aspects.. This mental abstraction can only take place in a mind that functions in a state of not being Brahman...and thus duality arises due to the perception of "I" as being a separate independent entity to the one existence....the 'not I'. This secondary mind sees existence dualistically and thus mortals live in a state of maya...illusion...

No, you asked me about what i was talking about, specifically. If you wanted me to answer your question in the framework, of your own beliefs, then you should have asked the question, in that context. The words here are merely descriptive; you used the word maya, and I incorporated that , thusly, in the parameters of my explanation/s/. I have no need to use your /specific/ labels in the explanations, but you seem to be adhering to your own equation/ concept, which does not address what I was talking about.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, you asked me about what i was talking about, specifically. If you wanted me to answer your question in the framework, of your own beliefs, then you should have asked the question, in that context. The words here are merely descriptive; you used the word maya, and I incorporated that , thusly, in the parameters of my explanation/s/. I have no need to use your /specific/ labels in the explanations, but you seem to be adhering to your own equation/ concept, which does not address what I was talking about.

Hold on....this is the post . Tuesday at 5:36 PM #35 ..you quoted which was in the context of my exchange with godnotgod.....we were talking about pure Brahman and the secondary aspect if the 'I' mind...the soul... I said..."The pure mind.....the non-dual mind...the eternal mind....the divine mind ...the infinite mind...the one mind...cosmic mind... The reality represented by the concept of mind can mean different things to different people according to context...I am now referring to the divine mind....which of course is not illusionary...but the mortal dualistic mind is prone to illusion..."

Now since you contradicted my gist, in the context of my above comment to godnootgod, in your stating that the mortal duallist mind is not prone to illusion...maya....then why would I not presume you are making your position in the context of my stated position?

 

[Desert Snake]

Hold on....this is the post . Tuesday at 5:36 PM #35 ..you quoted which was in the context of my exchange with godnotgod.....we were talking about pure Brahman and the secondary aspect if the 'I' mind...the soul... I said..."The pure mind.....the non-dual mind...the eternal mind....the divine mind ...the infinite mind...the one mind...cosmic mind... The reality represented by the concept of mind can mean different things to different people according to context...I am now referring to the divine mind....which of course is not illusionary...but the mortal dualistic mind is prone to illusion..."

Now since you contradicted my gist, in the context of my above comment to godnootgod, in your stating that the mortal duallist mind is not prone to illusion...maya....then why would I not presume you are making your position in the context of my stated position?

What you stated, is incorrect in any context. The ''context'', issue, was about the manner in which you asked the question, //to the purpose of either confirmation bias, or a default 'correct' position, of your concept/s/. This is beside the point.

To your statement, that I originally addressed. It is wrong in any context; it is wrong as a single statement. The problem with it, /your statement/, is that, it does not address the mortal mind in the manner in which it is. It is already, in a illusory paradigm; it is not ''prone to illusion''.
Your statement and comments/explanations, infer this:

non-dualistic mind-->dualist mind (illusion)

This is incorrect. How can non-dualism, create dualism? You are therefore, faulty, in totality of theory/idea, regarding where/what the ''illusion'', is (use whatever word you want for this).

The actual equation, is this: units of illusion-->many faceted unit of duality (illusion)

You can't have a ''prone'', to illusion. Non-illusion, does not create illusion; that is why i said, that duality does not create, or replicate. It is the same with non-duality. Non-duality does not create duality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What you stated, is incorrect in any context. The ''context'', issue, was about the manner in which you asked the question, //to the purpose of either confirmation bias, or a default 'correct' position, of your concept/s/. This is beside the point.

To your statement, that I originally addressed. It is wrong in any context; it is wrong as a single statement. The problem with it, /your statement/, is that, it does not address the mortal mind in the manner in which it is. It is already, in a illusory paradigm; it is not ''prone to illusion''.
Your statement and comments/explanations, infer this:

non-dualistic mind-->dualist mind (illusion)

This is incorrect. How can non-dualism, create dualism? You are therefore, faulty, in totality of theory/idea, regarding where/what the ''illusion'', is (use whatever word you want for this).

The actual equation, is this: units of illusion-->many faceted unit of duality (illusion)

You can't have a ''prone'', to illusion. Non-illusion, does not create illusion, that is why i said, that duality does not create, or replicate. It is the same with non-duality. Non-duality does not create duality.

I see what you are implying but that was not apparent when your response to my saying the dualistic mind was prone to illusion, was......"Not prone to" It was perfectly reasonable to presume that you were implying that the dualistic mind was not prone to illusion...yes? Now you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that you meant that the dualistic mind is illusion...yes?

Now bare with me and I will show you that you are misunderstanding when you think i am implying that the non--dualistic mind creates dualistic mind.. The religious practice of still mind meditation starts with the dualstic mind...the thinking mind that I described before as seeing itself separate from Brahman and thus dividing the oneness into 'I' and 'not I'. When this meditative practice finally results in a still mind free from thought....the 'I' does not arise to disturb the presence of oneness...Brahman non-dual mind is now present...thus non-duality prevails until a thought arises, simultaneously producing the 'I' who is aware of the thought and the dualistic mind is active again..

So what is creating the dualistic mind? It is the 'I'...the soul...the incarnate Brahman which forgets what and who it really is... Pure Brahman is non-dual...humans and all sentient beings exist within Brahman, but this apparent multiplicity is only an artifact of perception by the the dualistic mind....Pure Brahman is forever non-dual....period...creation, preservation, and destruction go on without end within...

 

[Desert Snake]

I see what you are implying but that was not apparent when your response to my saying the dualistic mind was prone to illusion, was......"Not prone to" It was perfectly reasonable to presume that you were implying that the dualistic mind was not prone to illusion...yes? Now you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that you meant that the dualistic mind is illusion...yes?

Now bare with me and I will show you that you are misunderstanding when you think i am implying that the non--dualistic mind creates dualistic mind.. The religious practice of still mind meditation starts with the dualstic mind...the thinking mind that I described before as seeing itself separate from Brahman and thus dividing the oneness into 'I' and 'not I'. When this meditative practice finally results in a still mind free from thought....the 'I' does not arise to disturb the presence of oneness...Brahman non-dual mind is now present...thus non-duality prevails until a thought arises, simultaneously producing the 'I' who is aware of the thought and the dualistic mind is active again..

So what is creating the dualistic mind? It is the 'I'...the soul...the incarnate Brahman which forgets what and who it really is... Pure Brahman is non-dual...humans and all sentient beings exist within Brahman, but this apparent multiplicity is only an artifact of perception by the the dualistic mind....Pure Brahman is forever non-dual....period...creation, preservation, and destruction go on without end within...

We don't share the same definition of non-duality. That's fine, as far as I'm concerned. As to the wording about the mortal mind not being prone to illusion, this is partly semantics in interpretation of that statement. It doesn't matter at this point, since we /hopefully, explained our arguments sufficiently.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We don't share the same definition of non-duality. That's fine, as far as I'm concerned. As to the wording about the mortal mind not being prone to illusion, this is partly semantics in interpretation of that statement. It doesn't matter at this point, since we /hopefully, explained our arguments sufficiently.

Fine...I think I now understand your point and thank you for explaining it...

I am though rather intrigued and would like to hear of the definition of non-duality which you hold....if you would like to share..please feel free to post it. We do not have to debate it...I will refrain from commenting unless you ask me for my opinion... cheers..

 

[godnotgod]

The source is all...and thus is constituted of rather than is...but entities directly beyond the human kingdom...I've heard it is so?

No of course not, they are real...but the concept of spirit is vanity until it is present in the reality of our spiritual life....just as we experience matter in the reality of this mortal life...

So the Source is before male and female, and all dualities, and that is because the Source is The Formless, out of which all forms emerge.

Human kingdom? You think there are various 'kingdoms', as in 'monarchy'?

But where do you detect the point where the material ends and the spiritual begins? I see them as One. I see this Ordinary world as none other than The Miraculous. It is because of our social conditioning that we do not see it so. Spiritual awakening opens the eyes to allow this transformation of vision. It's not a matter of 'this' over here, and 'that' over there. It is ALL here, right now. IOW, this is IT.*

The spiritual nature of things is unseen because awakening has not yet occurred, but it is always and forever immediately present. Maya and conditioning are powerful elements, keeping man asleep spiritually. Even the genes are guilty of creating an obstacle to higher understanding. Add to this the fact that sleeping people do their utmost to keep other sleeping people from awakening through various social devices, including the powerful weapon of advertising, which exploits the baser emotions, keeping man immersed in desire and craving.
*****

* "The most important point is to live in each moment in the here and now. You should live with things you have right now and find new meaning in them. The Buddhist practice is to not be concerned with things which we cannot see. We are doing everything within our reach. That is the world for us. There is no other world for us. You may say, "this world or the other world-future world or this world," but there is no such world. Because you say, "this world or that world," Mahayana Buddhists started to talk about that is the result of a delusive substantial idea.

You think as if there is something else-where there is something else which you cannot see. But we do not talk about that; we do not put any consideration in something like that. When we say "whole world," whole world may be this room or the zendo. That is 'whole world' can sometimes be this country or this earth or this universe. So according to the situation, "whole world" will be different, but when we say "whole world," the world we live in is the whole world."

excerpted and edited from a lecture by Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki

http://suzukiroshi.sfzc.org/archives/index.cgi/700131V.html?seemore=y

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So the Source is before male and female, and all dualities.

Human kingdom? You think there are various 'kingdoms', as in 'monarchy'?

But where do you detect the point where the material ends and the spiritual begins? I see them as One. I see this Ordinary world as none other than The Miraculous. It is because of our social conditioning that we do not see it so. Spiritual awakening opens the eyes to allow this transformation of vision. It's not a matter of 'this' over here, and 'that' over there. It is ALL here, right now. IOW, this is IT.

If by source you mean Brahman....of course it is beyond duality...

As in hierarchy/holarchical.....mineral, plant, animal, human, angelic, archangelic....

Well that's fine for you....when my mind is still there is no duality, but my mind is mostly not in non-dual state and I feel and perceive relative differences in my environment.... hotness and coldness, sickness and wellness, alertness and sleepiness...lightness and darkness.....good and evil....etc...

 

[godnotgod]

How so....duality creates the maya...does it not?

hmmmm......is it not Brahman Itself that creates maya ?

 

[godnotgod]

If by source you mean Brahman....of course it is beyond duality...

As in hierarchy/holarchical.....mineral, plant, animal, human, angelic, archangelic....

I don't necessarily see these things as being part of a hierarchy. If we, as humans, are none other than That, where is the hierarchy?

....when my mind is still there is no duality, but my mind is mostly not in non-dual state and I feel and perceive relative differences in my environment.... hotness and coldness, sickness and wellness, alertness and sleepiness...lightness and darkness.....good and evil....etc...

...all of which are a matter of degree; a continuum, which is why they are one, rather than dual.

When your mind is still, where is mind?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

hmmmm......is it not Brahman Itself that creates maya ?

No...the original Adam's mind was in a state of non--duality...and a warning given never to metaphorically eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil...for the day he does, he will be cast out of paradise and exiled into the world of maya... The kundalini serpent pushed the innocent man to attain dualistic knowledge and here we are... Brahman created the perfect man....he became corrupted despite God's warnings about the error of duality....death of perfection and birth of dualism....cast from spiritual oneness with Brahman to reside in maya in the material world...

 

[godnotgod]

No...the original Adam's mind was in a state of non--duality...and a warning given never to metaphorically eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil...for the day he does, he will be cast out of paradise and exiled into the world of maya... The kundalini serpent pushed the innocent man to attain dualistic knowledge and here we are... Brahman created the perfect man....he became corrupted despite God's warnings about the error of duality....death of perfection and birth of dualism....cast from spiritual oneness with Brahman to reside in maya in the material world...

Nah, too complicated and top heavy. It's much simpler than all that!

Don't forget that the serpent told Eve that the reason God did not want them to eat of the Fruit was because their eyes would be opened and they would 'see as God sees', which is none other than Higher Consciousness, but that is precisely why God wanted them to eat of the Fruit, which was ensured by God setting up the piece de resistance that He did. Get it? The rest of the story is poppycock!

The 'warning' was given with a wink of the eye. Of course they would eat of the Fruit! They could do nothing else. The serpent was, in reality, the godhead himself, appearing to them as such to make sure they would eat of it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't necessarily see these things as being part of a hierarchy. If we, as humans, are none other than That, where is the hierarchy?



...all of which are a matter of degree; a continuum, which is why they are one, rather than dual.

When your mind is still, where is mind?

I can't help you if you can not see the various kingdoms of nature...but this may help..

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.

-Jalaluddin Rumi

Yes....Brahman is the one that is all....but limited creatures have limited niches within infinite eternal non-duality....and as poetically described by Rumi...there is evolutionary process involved in the realization of pure Brahman...I apologize for not yet fully realizing Brahman...

Everywhere and nowhere...

 

[godnotgod]

This is closer to the original story from the East. Note that this speaks of Brahma, and not Brahman:

The Story of Brahma and This Illusion that is Maya

There is an old story from India about the God, Brahma, who was all alone. Nothing existed but Brahma, and he was completely bored. Brahma decided to play a game, but there was no one to play the game with. So he created a beautiful goddess, Maya, just for the purpose of having fun. Once Maya existed and Brahma told her the purpose of her existence, she said, "Okay, let's play the most wonderful game, but you have to do what I tell you to do." Brahma agreed, and following Maya's instructions, he created the whole universe. Brahma created the sun and the stars, the moon and the planets. Then he created life on earth: the animals, the oceans, the atmosphere, everything.

Maya said, "How beautiful is this world of illusion you created. Now I want you to create a kind of animal that is so intelligent and aware that it can appreciate your creation." Finally Brahma created humans, and after he finished the creation, he asked Maya when the game was going to start.

"We will start right now," she said. She took Brahma and cut him into thousands of teeny, tiny pieces. She put a piece inside every human and said, "Now the game begins! I am going to make you forget what you are, and you are going to try to find yourself!" Maya created the Dream, and still, even today, Brahma is trying to remember who he is. Brahma is there inside you, and Maya is stopping you from remembering what you are.

-from the book Mastery of Love

http://artistfishbowl.blogspot.com/2011/04/story-of-brahma-and-this-illusion-that.html

 

[godnotgod]

I can't help you if you can not see the various kingdoms of nature...but this may help..

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.

-Jalaluddin Rumi

Yes....Brahman is the one that is all....but limited creatures have limited niches within infinite eternal non-duality....and as poetically described by Rumi...there is evolutionary process involved in the realization of pure Brahman...I apologize for not yet fully realizing Brahman...

Everywhere and nowhere...

Fine but I take issue with the notion that it is some kind of hierarchical arrangement. It's more like Interdependent Origination. Even the glorious Sun is dependent upon the miniscule helium atom for it's robust existence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Nah, too complicated and top heavy. It's much simpler than all that!

Don't forget that the serpent told Eve that the reason God did not want them to eat of the Fruit was because their eyes would be opened and they would 'see as God sees', which is none other than Higher Consciousness, but that is precisely why God wanted them to eat of the Fruit, which was ensured by God setting up the piece de resistance that He did. Get it? The rest of the story is poppycock!

There is more to it....my story holds though you have some insights...the un-evolved Adam had no self consciousness of his own....by being cast out from the state of non-dual mind into ego mind....self consciousness is gained at the expense of losing perfection...but the Serpent was right in that at the end of the cycles of human incarnations..the soul would realize pure Brahman and become a spiritual being...an angelic being... So when the Kundalini serpent leaves the Muladhara cakra..and reached the Sahasrara cakra and the thousand petal lotus opens...the incarnate spirit can leave the body and function as a spiritual being and let the physical body be dissolved....it has served its purpose... It is the Kundalin godess which by uniting with Shiva at the 6th cakra is the key to unfolding of the 7th cakra.. it is a spiritual union of the spiritual Adam and Eve....Shiva and Shakti....transmuting the energy of the ida and pingala nadis...

 

[godnotgod]

i...there is evolutionary process involved in the realization of pure Brahman....

I cannot agree here. The realization of pure Brahman is to stop the becoming, not to engage in it. Brahman is not subject to coming into being; Brahman already is That. We are already That. Anything we do to try to become one with That will only take us further away from That. That is the dilemma.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I cannot agree here. The realization of pure Brahman is to stop the becoming, not to engage in it. Brahman is not subject to coming into being; Brahman already is That. We are already That. Anything we do to try to become one with That will only take us further away from That. That is the dilemma.

We can agree to disagree then...

The stage of realization of Brahman is called the day Brahman reveals Brahman to Brahman through Brahman.... Or you could say it is the day the actor who does not know he is Brahman fully remembers,..

Ans there is this cryptic piece.....If you die before you die, when you die, you do not die...