• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Seeking Truth and Seeking Certainty

godnotgod

Thou art That
Well fine...what is the difference from calling the thinker 'I', or 'soul', or 'Brahman the actor'...they are just three concept representing the same aspect of reality?

The difference is that Brahman is the only true Reality, while 'I', 'the thinker', 'the soul', etc, are the maya manifested by Brahman. Brahman is not a concept nor an aspect of reality: It is Reality itself.

What has occurred is that Brahman has become so immersed in the character, in the maya, that It has forgotten It's own true Brahman nature, and really thinks it is the character. When asked if the fictional life it is living is reality, it answers in the affirmative, absolutely. That is how well It is playing the Cosmic Game of Hide and Seek. From this POV, the atheist is the divine nature pretending it does not exist, and the theist is the divine nature pretending it is some 'other'.

Now it is not so simple as the monkey mind settling down...even when the mind is still....there may be the presence of physical pain....progressive though non-terminal chronic pain for which there may be no relief or cure that keeps the illusion of the soul alive.. Such a wretched state may be merely a karmic phase of the realization process....but it is certainly a reminder that the peace of pure Brahman is not to be found while there remains errors of the soul/mind...

That is a very good question, and one deserving of a topic unto itself, actually. However, I would say it is largely a matter of degree. When I was at Zen Center in San Francisco, the monks told us that when they engaged in every meal, they chewed each mouthful at least 25 times. Why? Well, in the East, the center of consciousness is not in the head, but in the hara, just below the navel. You don't want any digestive problems interfering in that area during meditation that might ruin or limit your experience in some negative way. Of course, this is fine tuning, admittedly. But there is one thing: and that is that sufficiently evolved people tend not to think of bodily pains as 'my' pains. Personally, I have chanted away many a bodily pain, usually within 30 minutes. But more severe conditions would probably cause too much distraction from the bliss of the spiritual experience, I think, but maybe all the more reason to turn to higher ground for sustenance. What brief experiences I have had were enough to cause me to know beyond a shadow of any doubt that there is nothing that can go on in the physical temporal body to compare with life in the spiritual world.
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The difference is that Brahman is the only true Reality, while 'I', 'the thinker', 'the soul', etc, are the maya manifested by Brahman. Brahman is not a concept nor an aspect of reality: It is Reality itself.

What has occurred is that Brahman has become so immersed in the character, in the maya, that It has forgotten It's own true Brahman nature, and really thinks it is the character. When asked if the fictional life it is living is reality, it answers in the affirmative, absolutely. That is how well It is playing the Cosmic Game of Hide and Seek. From this POV, the atheist is the divine nature pretending it does not exist, and the theist is the divine nature pretending it is some 'other'.



That is a very good question, and one deserving of a topic unto itself, actually. However, I would say it is largely a matter of degree. When I was at Zen Center in San Francisco, the monks told us that when they engaged in every meal, they chewed each mouthful at least 25 times. Why? Well, in the East, the center of consciousness is not in the head, but in the hara, just below the navel. You don't want any digestive problems interfering in that area during meditation that might ruin or limit your experience in some negative way. Of course, this is fine tuning, admittedly. But there is one thing: and that is that sufficiently evolved people tend not to think of bodily pains as 'my' pains. Personally, I have chanted away many a bodily pain, usually within 30 minutes. But more severe conditions would probably cause too much distraction from the bliss of the spiritual experience, I think, but maybe all the more reason to turn to higher ground for sustenance. What brief experiences I have had were enough to cause me to know beyond a shadow of any doubt that there is nothing that can go on in the physical temporal body to compare with life in the spiritual world.
I get that...but the actor-Brahman is the reflection of the pure Brahman...and therefore still synonymous with soul or 'I'..

Yes..something like that...the true understanding of what and who one really is unfolds for the disciple over the course of many trials and tribulations of realization...

Yes...this is where the rubber hits the road....the first brief experiences that reveal the pure Brahman do not happen without considerable prerequisite contemplation on what this mortal 'maya' life is about....and there is no turning back after that...though some meandering for sure (God I love girls..) though this is to be expected... As said above....the process of realizing what and who one really is one that takes time....but wait...time is also maya.....dear Lord..give me a break? :)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I get that...but the actor-Brahman is the reflection of the pure Brahman...and therefore still synonymous with soul or 'I'..

But it's all just a Big Act, you know. After all, Brahman, in playing the part, requires an identity, though it be a fictional one. The thing is, for Brahman to play the part totally convincingly, It must forget completely It's own divine nature, fully convinced it is actually the character. But yes, the character is, in fact, none other than That. Who knew?

Yes..something like that...the true understanding of what and who one really is unfolds for the disciple over the course of many trials and tribulations of realization...

Yes...this is where the rubber hits the road....the first brief experiences that reveal the pure Brahman do not happen without considerable prerequisite contemplation on what this mortal 'maya' life is about....and there is no turning back after that...though some meandering for sure (God I love girls..) though this is to be expected... As said above....the process of realizing what and who one really is one that takes time....but wait...time is also maya.....dear Lord..give me a break? :)[/QUOTE]

heh...heh...and who, pray tell, is it that wants a break?

So there was this man that died and went to Heaven, and arriving, knocks loudly on the PearlyGates. "Who is it?" asks a voice from within. "It's ME, Lord...you know...ME!". "Mmmmm....sorry, we have no such 'me's' on the lists...please go away!". The man, perplexed, goes away for a week to contemplate the problem, and upon his return, again knocks loudly on the Gates. 'Who goes there?" demands the voice from within. "ME, Lord!...you know!...ME! ME! ME!". "Nope...we have no such persons here...BEGONE!". Now the man, totally confused, goes away for an entire year, and at last returns, knocking softly on the Gates. "Yes?" asks the voice from within. "Who is it this time?" "Why, it's none other than YOU, Oh Lord!", at which the Gates slowly swing wide open.:D
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
But it's all just a Big Act.

Yes..something like that...the true understanding of what and who one really is unfolds for the disciple over the course of many trials and tribulations of realization...

Yes...this is where the rubber hits the road....the first brief experiences that reveal the pure Brahman do not happen without considerable prerequisite contemplation on what this mortal 'maya' life is about....and there is no turning back after that...though some meandering for sure (God I love girls..) though this is to be expected... As said above....the process of realizing what and who one really is one that takes time....but wait...time is also maya.....dear Lord..give me a break? :)

heh...heh...and who, pray tell, is it that wants a break?

So there was this man that died and went to Heaven, and arriving, knocks loudly on the PearlyGates. "Who is it?" asks a voice from within. "It's ME, Lord...you know...ME!". "Mmmmm....sorry, we have no such 'me's' on the lists...please go away!". The man, perplexed, goes away for a week to contemplate the problem, and upon his return, again knocks loudly on the Gates. 'Who goes there?" demands the voice from within. "ME, Lord!...you know!...ME! ME! ME!". "Nope...we have no such persons here...BEGONE!". Now the man, totally confused, goes away for an entire year, and at last returns, knocking softly on the Gates. "Yes?" asks the voice from within. "Who is it this time?" "Why, it's none other than YOU, Oh Lord!", at which the Gates slowly swing wide open.:D
I get it...but it's those acting Brahman sheilas that make the maya seem so real....damn that beautiful women....I understand why Adam
succumbed.... :)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I get it...but it's those acting Brahman sheilas that make the maya seem so real....damn that beautiful women....I understand why Adam
succumbed.... :)

The Valley Spirit never dies.
It is named the Mysterious Female.
And the doorway of the Mysterious Female
Is the base from which Heaven and Earth sprang.
It is there within us all the while;
Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry.

Tao te Ching, Ch 6, trans Waley

mona-lisa.jpg
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The Valley Spirit never dies.
It is named the Mysterious Female.
And the doorway of the Mysterious Female
Is the base from which Heaven and Earth sprang.
It is there within us all the while;
Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry.

Tao te Ching, Ch 6, trans Waley

mona-lisa.jpg
Haha...so very true...in this world of maya....we males naturally try to return to the source in physical union with our respective 'Eves'....in the spiritual sense, returning to the source takes the form of a transcending yoga...or zen practice....I keep hoping I have some divine dispensation to help our divine sisters to realize their providence in an incremental transitioning from the material to the spiritual...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think you and ben d may be talking about two different things. There is certainty in the realm of logic and the intellect, perhaps especially in mathematics. But there is also certainty in the spiritual world, but only as a direct experience of Reality that is non-intellectual in nature.
I speak of both.
Math requires the least caution, being a priori knowledge, one need only be logical.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Ahhhhhh....Brahman, that unfolding of the inner 'gnosis' that would be all of us.
The wealth of limitless knowledge to be absorbed, by this my own well of same.
What 'heaven' would open to all asking subjects, sans the very devil itself !
But what do I know, lost in my own inventive mindset of nothingness.
~
'mud
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Haha...so very true...in this world of maya....we males naturally try to return to the source in physical union with our respective 'Eves'....in the spiritual sense, returning to the source takes the form of a transcending yoga...or zen practice....I keep hoping I have some divine dispensation to help our divine sisters to realize their providence in an incremental transitioning from the material to the spiritual...

It's a journey that has no distance or time to it.


Is the Source androgynous?

Are 'material' and 'spiritual' purely conceptual in nature?
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Ahhhhhh....Brahman, that unfolding of the inner 'gnosis' that would be all of us.
The wealth of limitless knowledge to be absorbed, by this my own well of same.
What 'heaven' would open to all asking subjects, sans the very devil itself !
But what do I know, lost in my own inventive mindset of nothingness.
~
'mud

how poetic! reminds me of TS Elliot......

"I should have been a pair of ragged claws,
scuttling across the floors of silent seas"


Love it!:D

and.....

"We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality: we are that reality. When you understand this, you will see that you are nothing. and, being nothing, you are Everything."

Kalu Rinpoche
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
It's a journey that has no distance or time to it.

Is the Source androgynous?

Are 'material' and 'spiritual' purely conceptual in nature?
The source is all...and thus is constituted of rather than is...but entities directly beyond the human kingdom...I've heard it is so?

No of course not, they are real...but the concept of spirit is vanity until it is present in the reality of our spiritual life....just as we experience matter in the reality of this mortal life...
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The pure mind.....the non-dual mind...the eternal mind....the divine mind ...the infinite mind...the one mind...cosmic mind... The reality represented by the concept of mind can mean different things to different people according to context...I am now referring to the divine mind....which of course is not illusionary...but the mortal dualistic mind is prone to illusion...

Not prone to
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
How much of a convergence or of a divergence there is between the two goals?

How consistently so?

Why and under which circunstances?

What is it wise to do as a response to their relationship, if any?

I could answer this, but what guarantee that it won't be simply ignored?

what certainty?
The OP question fails it's owns suppositional position.
 
Top