Sex workers?

[PureX]

No, it's a business deal.

Or are you coerced to buy food etc?

Thank you for proving everything I wrote, above.

 

[PureX]

That is not true, any more than it is coercion than for your local sports store to ask for money in exchange for new Adidas running shoes.

Thank you for proving the point I made above about the poison of capitalism.

In contractarian or rights-based ethics, ...

You mean under a capitalist ideology ...

the key principle would be autonomy and consent. If both parties have full autonomy, are well-informed, and are freely choosing to engage in prostitution without coercion or undue influence, some would argue that this is a valid ethical contract. Both individuals are using the resources at their disposal (money or attractiveness) in a consensual exchange.

Money does not buy anyone's consent to be abused. It only buys their silence for after the crime has been committed. This is why in most civilized societies prostitution is still a crime. Unfortunately, the greed-based ideology of capitalism makes profit a far greater moral imperative than buying the victim's silence about sexual assault.

 

[PureX]

I pay some ladies every two weeks to clean my house.

Are you sexually assaulting them while they are cleaning your house?

I don't like housework and have some money to spare. They are prepared to do housework (I have no idea how they actually feel about it, they seem cheerful enough) and need money. We all seem to be perfectly happy with the arrangement.

Let's examine the idea that I pay them to have sex with me instead. I don't, for various reasons, none of which are moral. I don't get sex from any other women, I'm old and unattractive, and I miss it very much. If our approach to the arrangement was the same as for housework, how does it differ?

Sexual assault is not "housework". If you can't see the difference, I think you need to seriously re-evaluate your amorality.

It seems that, according to you, as I can't get sex from women that are attracted to me, then I'm doomed to an unwanted celibacy and they are shut off from a possible source of income.

Yes. Life is often disappointing like that.

 

[ChristineM]

Thank you for proving everything I wrote, above.

Show places in your posts where my comments proved what you wrote.

 

[VoidCat]

I can't do sex work as here in the US having that as a side job when im a teacher would not be advised. However I have considered doing porn not as a full time thing not to make a living but as a on an occasion thing. I'm a bit of an exhibitionist and like being watched at least when I've done solo stuff with a few online partners and I like the idea of posting my body online publicly on a porn site for strangers to see. I haven't done this but it's a turn on being watched. I wouldnt see the issue in getting money while if i did this as in this case I likely wouldve wanted to posted it to strangers even without pay. It's also not the most ideal way to go about exhibitionism either but it would be one the easier ways to do it as long as you stay as an individual and not getting involved with an agency. That being said it's not a thing to do lightly. It affects how people view you, and there's a huge stigma against sex workers even if it's like a small hobby like that. So that's why i dont do porn.

 

[VoidCat]

The advice I've heard reading on sex work regarding porn is to decide if you would do something if money wasn't involved. Im not talking about the doing an individual person but boundaries what you would and wouldn't be ok doing on camera. Would you for example choose to say a gangbang without money? What about more kinky stuff like feet or water sports? If not then it's not something you should do with money.

It's also a job. You'll likely be filming for hours with a producer. Several different scenes and your ideas will need to line up with the one filming. It's not an easy job. So the advice isn't perfect but it can be slightly helpful to consider.

I dont see an issue with sex workers but if someone chooses to do porn they need to think long and hard on it and have firm boundaries.

 

[PureX]

I can't do sex work as here in the US having that as a side job when im a teacher would not be advised. However I have considered doing porn not as a full time thing not to make a living but as a on an occasion thing. I'm a bit of an exhibitionist and like being watched at least when I've done solo stuff with a few online partners and I like the idea of posting my body online publicly on a porn site for strangers to see. I haven't done this but it's a turn on being watched. I wouldnt see the issue in getting money while if i did this as in this case I likely wouldve wanted to posted it to strangers even without pay. It's also not the most ideal way to go about exhibitionism either but it would be one the easier ways to do it as long as you stay as an individual and not getting involved with an agency. That being said it's not a thing to do lightly. It affects how people view you, and there's a huge stigma against sex workers even if it's like a small hobby like that. So that's why i dont do porn.

If you like exhibiting yourself to strangers, why do you feel it's ok to make them pay you for it? If they have to pay to see you, why shouldn't you have to pay show yourself to them? Why should their pleasure cost them money, while you get paid for yours?

This is why whenever money gets involved with sexuality, it becomes exploitive. I have no issue at all with consensexual sexual pleasures, whatever they are. But the moment money becomes a part of it, Someone is being exploited, and is therefor being abused whenever and however it can be gotten away with.

 

[VoidCat]

If you like exhibiting yourself to strangers, why do you feel it's ok to make them pay you for it? If they have to pay to see you, why shouldn't you have to pay show yourself to them? Why should their pleasure cost them money, while you get paid for yours?

This is why whenever money gets involved with sexuality, it becomes exploitive. I have no issue at all with consensexual sexual pleasures, whatever they are. But the moment money becomes a part of it, Someone is being exploited, and is therefor being abused whenever and however it can be gotten away with.

No one would be making them pay for it. If you don't want to dont. But some folk by the way do like paying for sex. It turns them on. There's a whole thing called findom look it up. I do think theres a fine line with that some folk are not responsible with money and may even have an addiction. Thats actually why I like the idea of ids and porn sites if it can be implemented properly. You know gambling casinos? Well...theres a thing gambling addicts can do and that is show their ID and get put on a black list. This list is given to all casinos in the area and that person is either banned from going to any or they can be limited to a certain amount of money to spend. That could be tweaked to porn sites I think and in addition to this people could be put on the black list if they are awful to the workers and push boundaries. Id also like to see an option on sites to put a self imposed limit on how much you can spend on porn.

There's a lot of problems with the porn industry i think needs fixing. A lot. I do think it needs a huge overhaul. But I dont think selling oneself or buying is inherently abusive. It can be which is why we need regulations.

 

[Kathryn]

How very odd. You spend a lot of time telling us how uninterested you are in things (like your post on the election), but you insist on letting us know about it.

If you don't care, why are you engaging?

Because otherwise I can get bored.

 

[VoidCat]

If you like exhibiting yourself to strangers, why do you feel it's ok to make them pay you for it? If they have to pay to see you, why shouldn't you have to pay show yourself to them? Why should their pleasure cost them money, while you get paid for yours?

This is why whenever money gets involved with sexuality, it becomes exploitive. I have no issue at all with consensexual sexual pleasures, whatever they are. But the moment money becomes a part of it, Someone is being exploited, and is therefor being abused whenever and however it can be gotten away with.

Id also point out its the sex workers body that's on the line here taking the risks. The person watching porn isnt taking risks there. I can see as a result why someone might rather be compensated for those risks. I also will add I dont make people pay to see me naked I have other ways to feed my exhibition kink in ethical ways. It's just i can see why one might enjoy the job and get paid for it

 

[PureX]

No one would be making them pay for it.

You would.

If you don't want to dont.

Be honest. Why do you think you should make them pay for their pleasure, but you not?

But some folk by the way do like paying for sex. It turns them on.

One in a hundred thousand? Maybe? And anyway, you wouldn't know who was which, so you'd just charge everyone. Right?

There's a whole thing called findom look it up. I do think theres a fine line with that some folk are not responsible with money and may even have an addiction. Thays actually why I like the idea of ids and porn sites if it can be implemented properly. You know gambling casinos? Well...theres a thing gambling addicts can do and that is show their ID and get put on a black list. This list is given to all casinos in the area and that person is either banned from going to any or they can be limited to a certain amount of money to spend. That could be tweaked to porn sites I think and in addition to this people could be put on the black list if they are awful to the workers and push boundaries. Id also like to see an option on sites to put a self imposed limit on how much you can spend on porn.

There's a lot of problems with the porn industry i think needs fixing. A lot. I do think it needs a huge overhaul. But I dont think selling oneself or buying is inherently abusive. It can be which is why we need regulations.

There are lots of ways we can exploit other people's odd proclivities. When we COULD just engage them for the sake of mutual pleasure and not exploit them for money. So why do we always have to exploit them for money?

GREED, of course. Greed is considered a great virtue in a capitalist culture. It is encouraged and enabled and rewarded and so then is exploiting other people for fun and for profit. OUR fun and profit, of course. Not theirs.

 

[Stonetree]

@PureX, Is a masseuse a slave?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thank you for proving the point I made above about the poison of capitalism.

You mean under a capitalist ideology ...

Money does not buy anyone's consent to be abused. It only buys their silence for after the crime has been committed. This is why in most civilized societies prostitution is still a crime. Unfortunately, the greed-based ideology of capitalism makes profit a far greater moral imperative than buying the victim's silence about sexual assault.

Fine, your opinion. I find it prudish.

There are men (and women) who, perhaps having lost a spouse and being perhaps not terribly attractive anymore, and who while not wishing to marry again may still crave sexual intimacy from time to time. And there are attractive women (and men) who, for whatever reason, require money for things that are important to them -- and who are perfectly willing to provide that intimacy in exchange for what they desire. l see no moral issue in that at all.

And, while you may have forgotten, capitalism or not, these exchanges have been common throughout human history, in every sort of society and economic system.

 

[VoidCat]

@PureX Greed has nothing to do with my exhibition kink. Some folk just would pay for it. Did you not read I don't sell porn of myself? I just would be ok if they were to pay for it depending on a lot of factors.

Porn isnt just sex. Thars another reason why I wont do it and use other methods for exhibition. The actors in porn are putting their bodies on the line here. Its acting. A script has to be planned folk film for hours cutting the cameras multiple times are positioning everything. Not to mention marketing. Even if they like the work and do it it takes work. Some folk just want to be compensated for that work. What would be exploitative is demanding all that work for free. You are not entitled to anyone's body.

Prostituation is another manner more tricky kind of sex work. I am unsure my opinion there it's a lot more complicated of an issue.

 

[Alien826]

Why not find an old widow at a bridge game or whatever? I don't understand people who say it's so hard just to find a sex partner. It's not. Most of that is in your head. Sex is a dime a dozen, especially if you're desperate and your standards aren't high. What's hard is finding a person who actually wants to commit and treats people right. That's regardless of age.

I suppose I could get offended at this, but it's really not me you're insulting. It's the supposed legion of desperate old ladies who will drop their pants for anyone desperate enough to want to have sex with them. Who's being disrespectful to women, you or me?

Incidentally I was trying to represent people who have no other way to have sex, to whom sex workers provide a valuable service.

Sounds incel-ish.

Another insult. "Incels" think women should be obliged to provide them with sex, and are to blame for their "celibate" condition. Are you suggesting that is me?

 

[Alien826]

Are you sexually assaulting them while they are cleaning your house?

No.

Sexual assault is not "housework". If you can't see the difference, I think you need to seriously re-evaluate your amorality.

Of course it isn't, but the question is, is prostitution sexual assault? You are equating any form of sex to assault if it isn't freely agreed to with no form of quid pro quo. I can't agree with that. Assault implies some kind of physical abuse or maybe the threat of of it. Sex does not (usually) include that, it's supposed to all pleasant and enjoyable. Alternatively, it could be without pleasure but given by one who doesn't particularly "feel like it". How about taking a woman out to an expensive dinner, after which she sleeps with you. Would she do so if the dinner wasn't provided? But it's not assault, is it? She is perfectly happy to "repay" the guy in that way.

Yes. Life is often disappointing like that.

Indeed. Which leads me to another point.

Like it or not, the current disparity between sexual desire and other factors in our species creates a large group of people that are wanting something they are not getting. This is no different from any other demand / supply imbalance. Someone will see an opportunity to supply the needed thing at a price. I know you are going to say "capitalism" at this point, but really, it's something that exists under any economic system. As with many other examples, the supplier can create the "good" in an ethical or unethical way, and then it's the job of society as a whole to regulate it.

My point is, that whether we suppress prostitution or not, the need remains. And no amount of moralistic condemnation, Bible quotes, or admonitions to have self control are going to change it. As a matter of interest, how would you handle it in whatever non-capitalistic system you advocate?

 

[Mock Turtle]

If you like exhibiting yourself to strangers, why do you feel it's ok to make them pay you for it? If they have to pay to see you, why shouldn't you have to pay show yourself to them? Why should their pleasure cost them money, while you get paid for yours?

This is why whenever money gets involved with sexuality, it becomes exploitive. I have no issue at all with consensexual sexual pleasures, whatever they are. But the moment money becomes a part of it, Someone is being exploited, and is therefor being abused whenever and however it can be gotten away with.

So exploitation doesn't occur in almost every sphere of life where money is exchanged? Try coming to the UK and risk being exploited by many of those who will be knocking at one's door and promising all sorts of wonders to behold. Not to even mention the workers in industry who are often exploited - especially by those hating those nasty union contrivances.

As a career choice, sex-working is probably very low down on the list, but there are many much worse options.

 

[PureX]

@PureX, Is a masseuse a slave?

Are they being sexually assaulted?

 

[ChristineM]

Are they being sexually assaulted?

Mine wasn't being assaulted, and he was being paid €44 per half hour session so not a slave either.

 

[PureX]

Fine, your opinion. I find it prudish.

There are men (and women) who, perhaps having lost a spouse and being perhaps not terribly attractive anymore, and who while not wishing to marry again may still crave sexual intimacy from time to time.

Anyone can have sex with any of them anytime they choose. They could have sex with each other anytime they choose.

And there are attractive women (and men) who, for whatever reason, require money for things that are important to them -- and who are perfectly willing to provide that intimacy in exchange for what they desire. l see no moral issue in that at all.

I know you don't. Because capitalism has poisoned your thinking the same way it has poisoned everyone else's. And now you think sexual assault is OK so long as you pay for their cooperation in the crime. Money doesn't make anyone want to have sex with someone. It doesn't buy their willing consent. It just buys their complicity in the sexual assault. But you can't see that.

And, while you may have forgotten, capitalism or not, these exchanges have been common throughout human history, in every sort of society and economic system.

Humans have always exploited other humans for their own desires, yes. But that never made it OK, and it doesn't make it OK, now.